Feminism: Good or Bad?

Originally posted by Chevalerous
Can't we all just be and behave like; human beings?

"All Human Beings Are Created Equal"

Ultra-feminist extremism is just as bad as ultra-macho extremism!

Let the boys be boys and let the girls be girls in a natural way without putting labels on them.

It doesn't matter if you are black or white rich or poor or a man or a woman, be a frikkin human being first!

I'm a man and I Iove women for what they are!

I love my mother and I want the best for her!

I love my sister and I want the best for her!

I love my ex-wife! and I still want the best for her!

I just want the women around me to be happy! and I'm trying my best to treat them as equals with love & respect!

If my sister is doing the same work as a man does, and even better sometimes, I support her opinion that she should receive the same pay for it!

I support the womens opinions and their rights about being valued equal to men in the society!

I support the womans right to decide over her own life without old outdated laws made by men and the patriarchical society to suppress her!

Does this mean I favor a matriarchal society?

No! I just want my society to be based on equal rights and common sence!

Is these opinions of mine, radical feminism ?

I would prefer to call them humanism?

THANK YOU!!!

THAT is all most women have ever wanted. It means you favor EQUALITY.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Sigh, well I am not going to continue trying to show you why Feminism is bad. Your mind is made up and there is no point in both of us wasting the ATS bandwidth trying to show each other the reality of the situation.

What I will do is leave you with two scenarios that can be attributed to the advancement of Feminist ideology.

Situation 1: A group of elder, extremely rich males sitting around a table, placing dollar bills in the clothes of scantily clad female strippers. Drinks, food and sexual favours abound, one of the men says out loud: "Now, THIS IS Women's Liberation!" Followed by a long, prolonged roar of laughter from all the other men in the room.

Situation 2: A boy is sitting next to his mother at a train station. He asks her: "what does separating mean? What is happening to our family? Where are we going?" She tells him that she and his father do not get along any more and will live away from each other. But she emphasises that the reason for this happening has nothing to do with him.
"If it has nothing to do with me, why am I so sad?"

1) a pig by any other name is still a pig. The men are pigs and the women are still thinking they are inferior.

2) It isn't the child's fault. Staying in a marriage for the child only is to have the suckiest parents for that child. My mom tried. I actually told her to to leave him when I was around 7-8 because of the abuse to the family.

The child will learn he/she is not the only one that matters. I learned my mother's happiness was just as important as mine. I learned my father's happiness did not equate to my happiness. It made me VERY UNHAPPY.

The experiences of your life seem to have caused you bitterness. That is too bad.

My experiences have enriched me to look outside of myself and realize it it not just about me or even just about my family. To try to learn and understand the whole situation... not just my part within it.

Try stepping outside of that shell you have. It is better to love than to have never loved at all. Go a little slower and get the know the person better. It is not just about sex. However... WRAP IT BEFORE TAP IT ! !

For that matter... if "feminism" wasn't so prevalent... you would probably not have the "lovely ladies" that you have. In this case... feminism is these "lovely ladies" choice to be with you. Wrap your thoughts around that.


Edit for another thought. Suddenly you do not want to discuss it any further because YOU cannot change MY ideas. That is funny. This is a discussion or even debate if you wish. It was never about changing our minds... which is obvious since you wish to run because you do not have an answer to the questions I keep asking you.

Why aren't you debating the parts you do not respond about? Because you have no (intelligent) answer maybe?

It is ok if you like being a male chauvinistic pig... It's America. But don't attempt push your sexist macho bull on a woman of intelligence who can take care of herself and doesn't need a man to pay her bills, take care of her children or dictate her life. Not going to happen without my EQUAL comments on the matter.



[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

reply to post by mhinsey


Oh you're so full of it. Hey.. If some girl lets me put my precious main brain into her special whatever the hell you referred to it as. That' s her fault. You pay the price not the man. (And this is an example of how your logic is so retarded.) It's her fault she CHOSE to have the kid and not abort it. And it was her CHOICE to not use the adoption option. Therefore she decided to raise that kid entirely on her own. No happy mediums.

Originally posted by marklance30
Feminism by definition is simply equal rights for women. Equal rights, is that radical?

Look, this is not gender issue. Most women would love to stay at home and take good care of the kids (or men). Men and Women both are the targets of consumerism. Lets look to the marketing of a consumer driven society, and not to a human rights campaign. Feminism does not strive to lesson the quality of child care, it aims for equal rights. This is more likely the fault of distorted and aggressive capitalism.

What rights do men have that women don't, I wonder? I can't really think of any. Does giving them special treatment (jobs to fill a quota, etc.) make them equal, or what? My belief is that the term male and equal are being confused. As natural bread-winners, males must work. So females become more like males to measure their equality. That seems...contradictory

A woman's success could, imho, be measured by the quality of children they raise (if this isn't important to people, then we're lost), and by how well they keep a family unit functioning. The problem could be that women see this as something they have no choice in. They do, yet if they just shut off the commercials and see how big a difference they're really making at home, a clear-headed woman will see they've been tricked, as has been pointed out, by, essentially, rich males.

There are exceptions to every rule. Some men are lazy, and can't be counted upon, and some women make horrible mothers.

One thing i also don't understand is that women these days (mostly in cities, or where money is most important, for some reason) want to be treated like men AND women. They have this sense of entitlement on both sides of the coin.

"treat me like a man, cause i'm equal, but you still have to be romantic and recognize my femininity when I feel you should", type thing.

In all the serious relationships i've been in, my better half didn't wear make-up, or even dresses really (also, they were All more educated than me). All I wanted was support, we need that, us men, eventually. Some more than others, but it all comes to us, and our parents deserve to be left alone. I'm talkinga bout being honest about something personal and how a woman's superpowers of understanding and compassion can change the mindset of any man. well me, anyways. that seems to be lacking in women these days. Or at the least, present at a much lower rate.

Originally posted by heyo

Originally posted by marklance30
Feminism by definition is simply equal rights for women. Equal rights, is that radical?

Look, this is not gender issue. Most women would love to stay at home and take good care of the kids (or men). Men and Women both are the targets of consumerism. Lets look to the marketing of a consumer driven society, and not to a human rights campaign. Feminism does not strive to lesson the quality of child care, it aims for equal rights. This is more likely the fault of distorted and aggressive capitalism.

What rights do men have that women don't, I wonder? I can't really think of any. Does giving them special treatment (jobs to fill a quota, etc.) make them equal, or what? My belief is that the term male and equal are being confused. As natural bread-winners, males must work. So females become more like males to measure their equality. That seems...contradictory

A woman's success could, imho, be measured by the quality of children they raise (if this isn't important to people, then we're lost), and by how well they keep a family unit functioning. The problem could be that women see this as something they have no choice in. They do, yet if they just shut off the commercials and see how big a difference they're really making at home, a clear-headed woman will see they've been tricked, as has been pointed out, by, essentially, rich males.

There are exceptions to every rule. Some men are lazy, and can't be counted upon, and some women make horrible mothers.

One thing i also don't understand is that women these days (mostly in cities, or where money is most important, for some reason) want to be treated like men AND women. They have this sense of entitlement on both sides of the coin.

"treat me like a man, cause i'm equal, but you still have to be romantic and recognize my femininity when I feel you should", type thing.

In all the serious relationships i've been in, my better half didn't wear make-up, or even dresses really (also, they were All more educated than me). All I wanted was support, we need that, us men, eventually. Some more than others, but it all comes to us, and our parents deserve to be left alone. I'm talkinga bout being honest about something personal and how a woman's superpowers of understanding and compassion can change the mindset of any man. well me, anyways. that seems to be lacking in women these days. Or at the least, present at a much lower rate.

I DO NOT want to stay at home taking care of the babies. However, if it is what someone else wants to do that is her right.

As to double standard. There is a double standard in every aspect of life.

Anyway, what is wrong with wanting to look attractive? Both male and female want to look their best. It is human nature to want to be attractive to the opposite (assuming heterosexual here) sex. I love to feel so sexy when the man I am crazy about says I am looking sexy.

Originally posted by Zealott
reply to post by mhinsey

 

Oh you're so full of it. Hey.. If some girl lets me put my precious main brain into her special whatever the hell you referred to it as. That' s her fault. You pay the price not the man. (And this is an example of how your logic is so retarded.) It's her fault she CHOSE to have the kid and not abort it. And it was her CHOICE to not use the adoption option. Therefore she decided to raise that kid entirely on her own. No happy mediums.

So it is not your fault in any way that you knocked her up? Now who is full of it.

Ok, let me get this straight... so it is not YOUR fault if it takes male sperm to impregnate a woman's egg. The woman should have kept her legs closed so that if SHE got pregnant with YOUR child then it is not your fault because you are "the man".

You are the epitome of a male chauvinist lazy *ss good for nothing welfare creating baby daddy type ... you can get the idea of where I am going with my thoughts about you.

You will obviously not be able to carry an intelligent conversation so ... whatever.

[it's all HER fault!!] NOT.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

The experiences of your life seem to have caused you bitterness. That is too bad.

My experiences have enriched me to look outside of myself and realize it it not just about me or even just about my family. To try to learn and understand the whole situation... not just my part within it.

Try stepping outside of that shell you have. It is better to love than to have never loved at all. Go a little slower and get the know the person better. It is not just about sex. However... WRAP IT BEFORE TAP IT ! !

...

Edit for another thought. Suddenly you do not want to discuss it any further because YOU cannot change MY ideas. That is funny. This is a discussion or even debate if you wish. It was never about changing our minds... which is obvious since you wish to run because you do not have an answer to the questions I keep asking you.

Why aren't you debating the parts you do not respond about? Because you have no (intelligent) answer maybe?

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

You know nothing about me or my history, so how can you determine that the experiences of my life have caused me bitterness? If you feel you are entitled to classify me as a "male chauvinistic pig" then I feel I am entitled to label you as a prudish Feminist donkey. Also, I am not American and don't know why you assumed I was. Do you think only Americans browse and contribute to this website? Or do you think that anti-Feminism is only prevalent in the USA?

a woman of intelligence who can take care of herself and doesn't need a man to pay her bills, take care of her children or dictate her life.

Glad to see you are enjoying the freedoms of Feminist empowerment. Will be interesting to see if you still feel the same when the SHTF. You know, when things like "women's rights" and "my successful career" will mean nothing when the basic human instincts are needed for survival. Will be very interesting indeed.

[edit on 31/5/2009 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by mhinsey


Your choice should be based upon what's best for the family, not just you. You think guys like working all the time? The point is that the feminist movement, imho (and i can't stress this enough), seems to think that women should just get what they want, whenever they want.
You're better at raising the family unit, admit it. Men play their roles but kids always want their momma.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

The experiences of your life seem to have caused you bitterness. That is too bad.

My experiences have enriched me to look outside of myself and realize it it not just about me or even just about my family. To try to learn and understand the whole situation... not just my part within it.

Try stepping outside of that shell you have. It is better to love than to have never loved at all. Go a little slower and get the know the person better. It is not just about sex. However... WRAP IT BEFORE TAP IT ! !

...

Edit for another thought. Suddenly you do not want to discuss it any further because YOU cannot change MY ideas. That is funny. This is a discussion or even debate if you wish. It was never about changing our minds... which is obvious since you wish to run because you do not have an answer to the questions I keep asking you.

Why aren't you debating the parts you do not respond about? Because you have no (intelligent) answer maybe?

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

You know nothing about me or my history, so how can you determine that the experiences of my life have caused me bitterness? If you feel you are entitled to classify me as a "male chauvinistic pig" then I feel I am entitled to label you as a prudish Feminist donkey. Also, I am not American and don't know why you assumed I was. Do you think only Americans browse and contribute to this website? Or do you think that anti-Feminism is only prevalent in the USA?

a woman of intelligence who can take care of herself and doesn't need a man to pay her bills, take care of her children or dictate her life.

Glad to see you are enjoying the freedoms of Feminist empowerment. Will be interesting to see if you still feel the same when the SHTF. You know, when things like "women's rights" and "my successful career" will mean nothing when the basic human instincts are needed for survival. Will be very interesting indeed.

[edit on 31/5/2009 by Dark Ghost]

My bad you can be a male chauvinistic pig anywhere - it is even more prevalent everywhere. America is at least attempting to give equality. Maybe not succeeding but attempting.

As to SHTF... I can do the following

1) gut a deer, AND cook it.
2) Skin a rabbit or any other small animal for that matter
3) milk a cow or goat.
4) I even know how to cook chitlins. ehh... not my favorite.
5) I can grow my own food.

You get the idea... I was raised on a farm and lived with hunters.

So, let's see who can do better when the SHTF.

Ta Ta

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by mhinsey

 

Your choice should be based upon what's best for the family, not just you. You think guys like working all the time? The point is that the feminist movement, imho (and i can't stress this enough), seems to think that women should just get what they want, whenever they want.
You're better at raising the family unit, admit it. Men play their roles but kids always want their momma.

Actually I really suck at maternal instincts. That is why I don't have a child at this time. I didn't believe to be fair to a child to bring him or her in when 1) I didn't feel financially able to and 2) I am not maternal - ask the kids in my neighborhood I keep trying to run over the little stealing glass breaking heathens.

I understood the concept of moral and sexual responsibility and wrapped before it was tapped or at least took birth control.

For that matter, I have always loved men who were much more paternal towards children than me. It is just the way I am.

I believe in that phrase wrap before tap. It protects both parties from not only pregnancy but also lowers the rate of transmission of STDs. It means both parties are taking responsiblity for their sexual freedom.

I always thought it interesting that men thought it was ok to knock a woman up and leave her to drown in the after mess. That there was no moral or legal obligation for their sexual promiscuity but the woman had to take the full brunt of both parties sexual promiscuity. Technically, the woman was taking the male's responsibility as well as her own.

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by mhinsey

 

Your choice should be based upon what's best for the family, not just you. You think guys like working all the time? The point is that the feminist movement, imho (and i can't stress this enough), seems to think that women should just get what they want, whenever they want.
You're better at raising the family unit, admit it. Men play their roles but kids always want their momma.

Actually I really suck at maternal instincts. That is why I don't have a child at this time. I didn't believe to be fair to a child to bring him or her in when 1) I didn't feel financially able to and 2) I am not maternal - ask the kids in my neighborhood I keep trying to run over the little stealing glass breaking heathens.

I understood the concept of moral and sexual responsibility and wrapped before it was tapped or at least took birth control.

For that matter, I have always loved men who were much more paternal towards children than me. It is just the way I am.

I believe in that phrase wrap before tap. It protects both parties from not only pregnancy but also lowers the rate of transmission of STDs. It means both parties are taking responsiblity for their sexual freedom.

I always thought it interesting that men thought it was ok to knock a woman up and leave her to drown in the after mess. That there was no moral or legal obligation for their sexual promiscuity but the woman had to take the full brunt of both parties sexual promiscuity. Technically, the woman was taking the male's responsibility as well as her own.

mhinsey:

So I guess this begs the question, do you have anything at all to offer a man?

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by mhinsey

 

Your choice should be based upon what's best for the family, not just you. You think guys like working all the time? The point is that the feminist movement, imho (and i can't stress this enough), seems to think that women should just get what they want, whenever they want.
You're better at raising the family unit, admit it. Men play their roles but kids always want their momma.

Actually I really suck at maternal instincts. That is why I don't have a child at this time. I didn't believe to be fair to a child to bring him or her in when 1) I didn't feel financially able to and 2) I am not maternal - ask the kids in my neighborhood I keep trying to run over the little stealing glass breaking heathens.

I understood the concept of moral and sexual responsibility and wrapped before it was tapped or at least took birth control.

For that matter, I have always loved men who were much more paternal towards children than me. It is just the way I am.

I believe in that phrase wrap before tap. It protects both parties from not only pregnancy but also lowers the rate of transmission of STDs. It means both parties are taking responsiblity for their sexual freedom.

I always thought it interesting that men thought it was ok to knock a woman up and leave her to drown in the after mess. That there was no moral or legal obligation for their sexual promiscuity but the woman had to take the full brunt of both parties sexual promiscuity. Technically, the woman was taking the male's responsibility as well as her own.

mhinsey:

So I guess this begs the question, do you have anything at all to offer a man?

Well, YOU will never know.

But to give you a taste... How about intelligence, equality, equal sexuality, loving and caring about someone besides myself and just my needs that must be met. Equality is about a compromise between a couple. Neither is better than the other.

You would prefer someone to get you your drink and bed slippers like Rover the dog. Never mind the intellectual pursuits. You just want the physical roving.

If we were the last two people on earth and it were up to the two of us to repopulate... ... I would have to abstain. I would rather the human race die than to perpetuate your condescending attempt at demoralization of women in general.

Not sure exactly what feminism is but here's my perspective.

Many, many women of the 60s/70s where actually brainwashed into believing going to bed with a man was somehow defending freedom and independence. Defending reproductive freedom or sexual freedom or whatever. How horriblly the women where turned into nothing but cheap whores and believed it was somehow their noble calling. Sexual repression when ever, if ever it really existed, was promoted by the same church that promotes (behind the scenes) the whoring and exploitation of women. Virtue and purity and nobility and abstinence somehow became ignorance, repression, naive, stupid, controlling, etc.. The 60s where much more a witch's curse than a love in. "Love" was prostituted as synonymous with sex and freedom, with whoreish, degradation, selfishness etc..

"Feminism" as I undertand the term is nothing but a promotion of women to the workplace for economic exploitation and the destruction of the family by turning the children over to the state for brainwashing from a very young age.

"Causes" are almost always selfish manipulations of the elites against the best interests of the people. Causes are almost always unnatural. People don't normally live their life by causes or fantasy ideas. It's almost always a form of subjugation.

Women have been encourages to be indirect partners in the rape and slaughter of other women and children by the promotion of immodesty. The image of a woman is too powerful a force in nature to be taken lightly. Modesty is not just self virtue but social virtue.

That said, some good has come out of encouraging women to have rights in the workplace as every one not excessively perverse needs to be able to earn a living while being true to their basic karma.

reply to post by mhinsey



"...leave the mess.."
I agree 100%. Well 99%. Men who put women/children/the woman's family into sucha position should be prosecuted. Myself, my biological father doesn't know i exist. My dad stepped in tho when i was 1...off topic.

It's hard for men to have an interest in something they don't have a say in. If a man doesn't want a child, and the woman is pregant, and she wants to keep it, he is a slave to her wishes.
that is the 1% disagreement, because essentially he should've thought of that before he got it on with her not knowing...unless she was his girlfriend for a few months then they broke up for a couple of weeks and she didn't tell him she stopped taking the pill when they got it on and acted like nothing was up until he got a phone call a month later saying just an fyi i'm pregnant with your child and i'm not keeping it, click. lol...live'n'learn!

women, in this regard, have all the power, yet want only half the responsibility...of course, we all know that if a woman is made powerless in the act of conception it should be jail/death for sucha piece of slime.

Do you think it's a possibility that the capitalist movement (femenism being a part, possibly) could drown out the maternal instincts of women? It is difficult to be compassionate and successful in business, so such qualities would naturally be squashed because they get in the way of the goal: monetary success.

I'm just musing here, kind of bouncing off ideas, as you don't seem to take offense to my honest questions and i like that. I DO realize that there are exceptions to every rule, but how much of you is you, and not what you've been trained to percieve as you? a deep question for sure, and maybe i'm out of place in asking it.

Being raised in a small town, i was used to a different type of woman than what i knew. They weren't uneducated or unintelligent, they just.....compromised more.

So lets say that in this reality there exists a "force" that desires to do evil. Some call it Satan, blah blah blah. I'll label it as Some Malevolent Force (SMF). So what it desires to do is to corrupt society and change its direction. This was shown in the first chapter of the bible, Genesis. SMF knows that women (and I'm generalizing here) are more accepting of new things and are more likely to open up to new ideas. So SMF decides "Hey, why don't we corrupt Eve, and then use her to get to her husband?" Maybe that is what is being implemented here. SMF is introducing new ideas to women who bring these home to their husbands who go, "Oh, well, if it's good for my wife, then it's good for me!"

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by mhinsey

 

"...leave the mess.."
I agree 100%. Well 99%. Men who put women/children/the woman's family into sucha position should be prosecuted. Myself, my biological father doesn't know i exist. My dad stepped in tho when i was 1...off topic.

It's hard for men to have an interest in something they don't have a say in. If a man doesn't want a child, and the woman is pregant, and she wants to keep it, he is a slave to her wishes.
that is the 1% disagreement, because essentially he should've thought of that before he got it on with her not knowing...unless she was his girlfriend for a few months then they broke up for a couple of weeks and she didn't tell him she stopped taking the pill when they got it on and acted like nothing was up until he got a phone call a month later saying just an fyi i'm pregnant with your child and i'm not keeping it, click. lol...live'n'learn!

women, in this regard, have all the power, yet want only half the responsibility...of course, we all know that if a woman is made powerless in the act of conception it should be jail/death for sucha piece of slime.

Do you think it's a possibility that the capitalist movement (femenism being a part, possibly) could drown out the maternal instincts of women? It is difficult to be compassionate and successful in business, so such qualities would naturally be squashed because they get in the way of the goal: monetary success.

I'm just musing here, kind of bouncing off ideas, as you don't seem to take offense to my honest questions and i like that. I DO realize that there are exceptions to every rule, but how much of you is you, and not what you've been trained to percieve as you? a deep question for sure, and maybe i'm out of place in asking it.

Being raised in a small town, i was used to a different type of woman than what i knew. They weren't uneducated or unintelligent, they just.....compromised more.

I was raised in a small town. However, I got tired of the good ole boy mentality. It is the small town hypocrisy that really chafes my *ss. It is ok for a boy to sleep with a girl but SHE is the slut.
H-E-L-L-O... both are responsible.

What everyone does not seem to get is that I hold BOTH PARTIES (MALE AND FEMALE) responsible. If you get it on you pay the consequences - whether it is an STD or a child.

I am not sure when it became the woman's duty to not get pregnant even though he is the one bearing the sperm to fertilize. If you have broken up with someone and you are not 100% sure of the relationship - WEAR A CONDOM.

I do know of women who use the baby to get the man... which I NEVER understood. No man is worth 9 months of pregnancy unless you REALLY want the baby. Some just wanted the baby. I can promise you on either case there was someone in the background telling the guy..

"Hey, Adam, are you sure you can trust Eve? I thought you told me she was a scheming conniving 2-faced biatch? How has that changed?"

What a man or woman will do during a break up is a sum of their personality. The worst traits of a person come up at that time. Granted, it changes per breakup but as a general rule.... Crazy is as crazy does.

If he/she was scratching your car in retaliation... he/she is crazy.

If you know that she wanted a baby but said she will wait... don't believe her... wrap it. Heck I was even tempted once when I thought I wanted a child but then I realized that would be the crappiest way to have a baby. That would be rough on the baby AND possible relationship. How can you look someone in the face and NOT tell them you are off birth control? It is against my very nature personally.

At one time I wanted a child. I still do but I also realize I don't have that strong maternal instinct like some. That is another story.

As to how much of me is me? My own mother looks at me sometimes and wonders where I get my thought processes. She doesn't realize SHE raised me to be intelligent and independent thinker by doing not by saying. She is what most would call a gentile southern lady. She believes in doors being opened and would love to stay at home taking care of the house for her good man - it just didn't happen that way. She had to take care of me and one of my brothers after the divorce working 2-3 jobs almost my entire childhood and teen years. she busted her chops by doing not by finding.

She might have gotten $200 in the 10+ years after the divorce from my crappy father.

So, I don't necessarily have the best opinion of men in general. I know there are good ones out there. However, if you put 99 good men and 1 crappy SOB in a room... I would just slobber over the SOB. I would hazard a guess and assume it has something to do with crappy father and self-esteem issues on a subconscious level.

I learned a long time ago... if you don't believe in yourself - no one else will. If I am not feeling self-confident, then I fake it until it becomes true.

Oh come on...by definition Feminism is equal rights, but in society it is more than that.

Men and Women are not equal, but one is not above or below the other either.

You know what I think raises a good kid?
A mom to take care of the kid most of the time, and a dad to play catch/go fishing (whatever) when he has a day off work.

Sure, I am all for women having careers. But when it comes to parenting, it is bad judgement on both sides to let someone else raise their kids (out of family that is - relatives are okay).

Feminism has led to one major thing - MEN BEING SCARED OF MARRIAGE.

Why? Well, *most* of the time the guy is making more money, and *most* of the time, if a divorce happens, the girl gets all the crap.

But you know what? I am still for men entering the army and being hard hats. Why? Because men and women are different. Each sex is better suited for certain things.

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by Amaterasu

I am a feminist in the sense that I believe that I, and no one else, has full right to control of my body.

...

Put another way, if you want full control of your body and all the choices during an unwanted pregnancy, why are you not willing to accept full responsibility for your decision?

I'm a bit confused by this. What do you mean by "full responsibility?"

A great number of unwanted pregnancies are the result of the "father" abandoning the "mother." (I use quotes because, until the soul enters on the first breath, it is my considered opinion that no one is "father" and no one is "mother." I use the first breath as measure because so many scriptures worldwide state unambiguously that the soul enters at first breath, including in the Talmud as words from G-d, that same God of the Bible.)

So with the greater part of unwanted pregnancies occurring in a state of abandonment, what the woman does in that situation is hers alone (casting responsibility firmly on her).

In the cases where the "father" is at odds with the choices of the "mother," which are the least in terms of percentage of incidents of unwanted pregnancies - and a really small percentage at that - the "father" has as much responsibility as the "mother" in creating the pregnancy, and since it was into her body the issue was placed, she may choose what is done with it.

She has the responsibility.

So what do you mean by asking why a woman who wants full responsibility for her body (and, unless physically restrained, what we all do with our bodies is our responsibility) does not take full responsibility?

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by Amaterasu

I am a feminist in the sense that I believe that I, and no one else, has full right to control of my body.

...

Put another way, if you want full control of your body and all the choices during an unwanted pregnancy, why are you not willing to accept full responsibility for your decision?

I'm a bit confused by this. What do you mean by "full responsibility?"

A great number of unwanted pregnancies are the result of the "father" abandoning the "mother." (I use quotes because, until the soul enters on the first breath, it is my considered opinion that no one is "father" and no one is "mother." I use the first breath as measure because so many scriptures worldwide state unambiguously that the soul enters at first breath, including in the Talmud as words from G-d, that same God of the Bible.)

So with the greater part of unwanted pregnancies occurring in a state of abandonment, what the woman does in that situation is hers alone (casting responsibility firmly on her).

In the cases where the "father" is at odds with the choices of the "mother," which are the least in terms of percentage of incidents of unwanted pregnancies - and a really small percentage at that - the "father" has as much responsibility as the "mother" in creating the pregnancy, and since it was into her body the issue was placed, she may choose what is done with it.

She has the responsibility.

So what do you mean by asking why a woman who wants full responsibility for her body (and, unless physically restrained, what we all do with our bodies is our responsibility) does not take full responsibility?

Amaterasu :

I don't understand his logic at all unless it is to mean that all woman are responsible for all pregnancies and men had no choice in the reproductive process.

Oops... it just slipped into there...dogonnit. Now look what you did, silly woman...

Originally posted by mhinsey
I never made a statement on the actual afteraffects. Personally, I think the woman should go to term and the child be taken care of by either one or both. If one does not want to be a party to that child's life tough. He - AND/OR SHE - should still be financially responsible for that child until the legal age of 18 unless the child is adopted. It should not be government funded to take care of the child.

Here I disagree, for the following reasons:

• In many cases, neither is not a financial place to care for a child.
  
• Unwanted children are most often the recipients of neglect and abuse - love, being required for a healthy human to develop, is not received.
  
• A study of psychopaths and sociopaths shows that most of them (if not all) had neglect and abuse in their lives - this would suggest that forcing an unwanted child into this world increases the number of potential psychopaths and sociopaths, which cannot be good for society as a whole.
  
• We must consider the child in deciding who it is raised by, and the fact that, especially in some "racial" groups, there is not enough people willing to love all the ones unwanted, to force these vessels to first breath doomed to a life lacking love is absurd.
  

Or for that matter, if NEITHER want the child, then the child be given up for adoption. Abortion is the selfish way out. It allows them to "erase" THEIR lapse in judgement. Abortion should only be for medically necessary or rape victims.

This sounds like a solution, but as I have pointed out, unless the infant is white and perfect (no deformity), the chances of finding someone who will love and has the means to care for the child is slim.

I have no issues with "mothers" seeking a family to adopt the resultant ensouled being of an unwanted pregnancy, but if it is established that there are no takers, abortion is the better option.

This was not an easy thought process for me because I do believe my body is my domain. However, once you have created a life from a sexual union then you should be obligated to carry the child to term. I would owe that child the right to live.

This is fine if you can provide food-clothing-shelter-love. Unless you can provide all four in society, you bring into being sociopaths and psychopaths. What a gift for the resulting ensouled being, eh?

I also think people who bomb abortion clinics are coo-coo for cocoa-puffs and need to be put away asap.

Can't argue on that score! I have never understood the concept that it's ok to kill to force a vessel to first breath.