Feminism: Good or Bad?

Originally posted by hardamber
reply to post by leo123

 

Thanks, that was very kind of you. I've been married to the father of my children for almost 29 years now. We plan on being together the rest of our lives. When the kids come home to visit, they will have their old bedrooms the way they left them.

You were very fortunate to have a stay at home mom. My parents marriage was a victim of the "Me" generation. My mom bought the lie hook line and sinker. She filed for a divorce six weeks after she got her high paying job at GM. The system was all rigged in her favor. It took my dad years to recover financially for all that happened.

Now, my mom is truly sorry for what she put us kids through and wishes she still had my dad.

We practically raised ourselves. I was eight years old and responsible for getting my two younger sisters up, fed, dressed, lunches packed and on the bus. We never once missed the bus or a day of school, I was scared of my mom. She was NOT a nurturing mother.

Feminism gets a thumb down from me. I lived the bad parts of it.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by hardamber]

[edit on 30-5-2009 by hardamber]

Your mother divorcing your dad had nothing to do with feminism but just the fact that she thought the grass would be greener elsewhere. MY MOTHER left my father because he was an alcoholic abusive SOB who deserved to be run over by a mac truck about 5 times (including reverse to do it again).

However, my mother raised my brother and myself. I never had crazy parties at my house because those kids were FREAKS!! I never acted like those crazy kids. I realized my mom was working two and even three jobs to give me a house, food and safety of a home. So I disagree with anyone who hates women who work. My mother is the ultimate lady who shows grace and tact when under pressure from male chauvinistic pigs or holding a tire jack to change the tire. Whatever needs to be done she does it with grace and dignity AND a JOB. It gave her self-confidence and understanding of herself when she chose to leave a very abusive life for her and her kids and go into a very scary situation with little understanding of that world.

I pray each day that I will have the same courage, grace and caring that my mother shown me by LEAVING my father when and if the time comes.

Originally posted by leo123

This is the one guys have so much trouble with. It's not so much they object to women having full control over their body, it's the fact that once an unwanted pregnancy occurs many women use their full control over their body against a man by denying him any say or choice about the outcome of the pregnancy - and the Stae fully sanctions this.

We call that trying to suck and blow at the same time.

Put another way, if you want full control of your body and all the choices during an unwanted pregnancy, why are you not willing to accept full responsibility for your decision?

(apologies for the edits - spelling)

[edit on 30-5-2009 by leo123]

[edit on 30-5-2009 by leo123]

Again, if the men had wrapped before they tapped then it would not have been an issue. It takes two to tango. Men did not want to lose that natural feeling and knocked a woman up. Since both the man and the woman lacked the intelligence to wrapping before tapping then BOTH should be completely responsible for the outcome. Duh!

I think feminism being CALLED feminism means at heart there is a female-supremacy aspect to it.

As for me - I have mixed feelings. I do think feminism is too post-modern and does aim to some extent at destroying the emphasis on family, but it has also given women more choice than being moms.

As for divorce rates - I do not blame feminism, I blame people for getting married just to have sex and kids.

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by leo123

This is the one guys have so much trouble with. It's not so much they object to women having full control over their body, it's the fact that once an unwanted pregnancy occurs many women use their full control over their body against a man by denying him any say or choice about the outcome of the pregnancy - and the Stae fully sanctions this.

We call that trying to suck and blow at the same time.

Put another way, if you want full control of your body and all the choices during an unwanted pregnancy, why are you not willing to accept full responsibility for your decision?

(apologies for the edits - spelling)

[edit on 30-5-2009 by leo123]

[edit on 30-5-2009 by leo123]

Again, if the men had wrapped before they tapped then it would not have been an issue. It takes two to tango. Men did not want to lose that natural feeling and knocked a woman up. Since both the man and the woman lacked the intelligence to wrapping before tapping then BOTH should be completely responsible for the outcome. Duh!

mhinsey:

Well there's the crux of the story.

If women want BOTH men and women to be responsible for an unwanted pregnancy then the man should have an equal say as to whether the pregancy is aborted, held to term and let out for adoption, of held to term and kept.

But that's not the way it works, is it? Men today have NO say on the potential outcomes.

Here's what I would suggest. In order for a woman to retain full control over her body she can do whatever she wants with the pregnancy, but if a man does not want it to be held to term and raised by the mother he should not be financially responsible for it.

Needless to say, if you don't agree with this, you are suggesting women should be able to suck and blow at the same time and have an advantage over men.

That wouldn't be equality, would it?

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by leo123

This is the one guys have so much trouble with. It's not so much they object to women having full control over their body, it's the fact that once an unwanted pregnancy occurs many women use their full control over their body against a man by denying him any say or choice about the outcome of the pregnancy - and the Stae fully sanctions this.

We call that trying to suck and blow at the same time.

Put another way, if you want full control of your body and all the choices during an unwanted pregnancy, why are you not willing to accept full responsibility for your decision?

(apologies for the edits - spelling)

[edit on 30-5-2009 by leo123]

[edit on 30-5-2009 by leo123]

Again, if the men had wrapped before they tapped then it would not have been an issue. It takes two to tango. Men did not want to lose that natural feeling and knocked a woman up. Since both the man and the woman lacked the intelligence to wrapping before tapping then BOTH should be completely responsible for the outcome. Duh!

mhinsey:

Well there's the crux of the story.

If women want BOTH men and women to be responsible for an unwanted pregnancy then the man should have an equal say as to whether the pregancy is aborted, held to term and let out for adoption, of held to term and kept.

But that's not the way it works, is it? Men today have NO say on the potential outcomes.

Here's what I would suggest. In order for a woman to retain full control over her body she can do whatever she wants with the pregnancy, but if a man does not want it to be held to term and raised by the mother he should not be financially responsible for it.

Needless to say, if you don't agree with this, you are suggesting women should be able to suck and blow at the same time and have an advantage over men.

That wouldn't be equality, would it?

I never made a statement on the actual afteraffects. Personally, I think the woman should go to term and the child be taken care of by either one or both. If one does not want to be a party to that child's life tough. He - AND/OR SHE - should still be financially responsible for that child until the legal age of 18 unless the child is adopted. It should not be government funded to take care of the child.

Or for that matter, if NEITHER want the child, then the child be given up for adoption. Abortion is the selfish way out. It allows them to "erase" THEIR lapse in judgement. Abortion should only be for medically necessary or rape victims.

This was not an easy thought process for me because I do believe my body is my domain. However, once you have created a life from a sexual union then you should be obligated to carry the child to term. I would owe that child the right to live.

I also think people who bomb abortion clinics are coo-coo for cocoa-puffs and need to be put away asap.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

BAD!!! While things such as letting women vote and allowing them the opportunity to work have been good things, the number of negatives far outweigh the positives. The OP has summed it up rather well so I don't think I need to elaborate.

What I will say to those who think Feminism has been good and enriches humanity, why don't you research who supported, funded and executed the push for women's liberation through the feminist movement.

Paraphrasing one of the descendants of a famous elite family:

"Before women's liberation we could only tax half the population. Also, putting women in the workforce would break up families and cause the kids to rely on the state as their guardians, which allows us to control and mould them in a way that we desire."

I know a lot of people will be offended by these statements, but they are the real reason why women's liberation flourished and has lead to the current situation. It may be painful, but it is the truth.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
BAD!!! While things such as letting women vote and allowing them the opportunity to work have been good things, the number of negatives far outweigh the positives. The OP has summed it up rather well so I don't think I need to elaborate.

What I will say to those who think Feminism has been good and enriches humanity, why don't you research who supported, funded and executed the push for women's liberation through the feminist movement.

Paraphrasing one of the descendants of a famous elite family:

"Before women's liberation we could only tax half the population. Also, putting women in the workforce would break up families and cause the kids to rely on the state as their guardians, which allows us to control and mould them in a way that we desire."

I know a lot of people will be offended by these statements, but they are the real reason why women's liberation flourished and has lead to the current situation. It may be painful, but it is the truth.

Dearie,

That is not a truth. That is your theory. It is NOT a proven fact. Give me proof and substantiation of that theory. Not just from ATP either. Give credible news sources, data, etc. Not some "paraphrasing" bull from some elitist somewhere in sometime.

Women went to work because men were at war. Women realized having money separate from their husband meant they weren't slaves anymore. That not being financially dependent on men mean't not having to deal with an abusive husband or father figure for your children.

SOME women went a little wild with the power. Hello, give an 18 year old $10k and see what he or she does. GOES Wild. Most women at the beginning of the women's movement had an educational level of maybe 8th grade. They were demeaned and belittled and taught they were inferior to men in every way. (WHICH THEY WERE NOT - DIFFERENT BUT NOT INFERIOR). Once the women started working during the war, they realized they were not inferior and became a person in her own right.

If a woman wishes to stay at home and be a full-time mom. That's great! If a woman wishes to work for a living. That's great!

It is about the CHOICE. It seems to me that it is the men who are lagging behind moaning their loss. Step up and be a stay at home dad. Or have swing shifts so that there is always a parent in the house for the children. One work swings and one work days or mids. That way there is always a parent to make a meal, clean the skint knee boo-boo and just give the love and attention to the children.

However, the choice of a 1-parent income is slowly being degraded not because of women but because of men in the government deciding to spend money that THE GOV'T DOESN'T HAVE. They are spending money they EXPECT from taxes. However, I .. as a woman, raised by a woman, was taught to only go by what you have. Only spend on what you have not on what you expect to have. That way your light bill stays on.

For that matter, if more intelligent and conscientious women were in goverment positions - maybe the deficit would not be there. They would only pay with what they have.

Originally posted by mhinsey
It is about the CHOICE.

Exactly, and what is being pointed out to you is under feminism only women have CHOICE.

That's not equality.

Edit: I removed my post because I realised I had misread another poster. Thus My post was not valid and I removed it.

[edit on 31/5/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey
It is about the CHOICE.

Exactly, and what is being pointed out to you is under feminism only women have CHOICE.

That's not equality.

It's funny you only quote that one little part. Don't want to get into the other part where I hold both parties accountable? Typical male chauvinism. Only defend the one little part. You do not want to discuss you just want to bash.

Ok bambam... go back to bashing the table. It's ok. Your mommy will pick up your spillt milk and cookies. Even if you are 30...living in the basement apartment... still single.... wondering why women won't date you.... calling up your friend Bubba for another cool Friday night of dungeons and dragons... or going to the bar bouncing your head like those two brothers from that skit on Saturday Night Live.

[Ok .. that made ME snicker!]

Edit: I removed my post because I realised I had misread another poster. Thus My post was not valid and I removed it.

[edit on 31/5/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey
It is about the CHOICE.

Exactly, and what is being pointed out to you is under feminism only women have CHOICE.

That's not equality.

It's funny you only quote that one little part. Don't want to get into the other part where I hold both parties accountable? Typical male chauvinism. Only defend the one little part. You do not want to discuss you just want to bash.

Ok bambam... go back to bashing the table. It's ok. Your mommy will pick up your spillt milk and cookies. Even if you are 30...living in the basement apartment... still single.... wondering why women won't date you.... calling up your friend Bubba for another cool Friday night of dungeons and dragons... or going to the bar bouncing your head like those two brothers from that skit on Saturday Night Live.

[Ok .. that made ME snicker!]

mhinsey:

Personal attacks don't fly with me, I am way too old for that and am having too much fun in my semi-retired years with the ladies in my life to pack any attitude.

What I am respectfully trying to point out is the irony in many of your comments.

For example look at your signature line. It's all about you and to hell with anyone else. Hmmm?

You want "choice", but are you willing to take full responsibility for the implications of your "choice"? Are you willing to equally value and respect the implications your "choice" has on other people?

Some thoughts.


[edit on 31-5-2009 by leo123]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey
It is about the CHOICE.

Exactly, and what is being pointed out to you is under feminism only women have CHOICE.

That's not equality.

It's funny you only quote that one little part. Don't want to get into the other part where I hold both parties accountable? Typical male chauvinism. Only defend the one little part. You do not want to discuss you just want to bash.

Ok bambam... go back to bashing the table. It's ok. Your mommy will pick up your spillt milk and cookies. Even if you are 30...living in the basement apartment... still single.... wondering why women won't date you.... calling up your friend Bubba for another cool Friday night of dungeons and dragons... or going to the bar bouncing your head like those two brothers from that skit on Saturday Night Live.

[Ok .. that made ME snicker!]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have just witnessed the pivotal reason why Feminism is corrupted and wrong. You feel so empowered that you can classify and judge a person you do not know by trying to embarrass and defame them. Yep, as a Feminist this is your right. But we understand that for us to do the same would be sexist. All good for you, as long as the Feminist is free, that's all that matters.

I am male. Guess I better just stay quiet and nod my head because if I criticise your Feminist ideology, I will be labelled sexist and unfair. "Equal" rights, just as Betty Friedan imagined hey?

If you had actually read the entire thread you would understand the conversation.... so yea... maybe you should sit down and keep quiet.

Equality is just that. Equality to bash, equality to procreate, equality to be held accountable for your stupidity in sexual encounters irregardless of race WHICH leo123 did not want to discuss. He just wanted to to discuss one itty bitty word taken out of context from a farily large post by me. Just as you took one post out of context from a decent sized thread.

double post somehow... my bad.
Just cleared it for clarity.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey
It is about the CHOICE.

Exactly, and what is being pointed out to you is under feminism only women have CHOICE.

That's not equality.

It's funny you only quote that one little part. Don't want to get into the other part where I hold both parties accountable? Typical male chauvinism. Only defend the one little part. You do not want to discuss you just want to bash.

Ok bambam... go back to bashing the table. It's ok. Your mommy will pick up your spillt milk and cookies. Even if you are 30...living in the basement apartment... still single.... wondering why women won't date you.... calling up your friend Bubba for another cool Friday night of dungeons and dragons... or going to the bar bouncing your head like those two brothers from that skit on Saturday Night Live.

[Ok .. that made ME snicker!]

mhinsey:

Personal attacks don't fly with me, I am way too old for that and am having too much fun in my semi-retired years with the ladies in my life to pack any attitude.

What I am respectfully trying to point out is the irony in many of your comments.

For example look at your signature line. It's all about you and to hell with anyone else. Hmmm?

You want "choice", but are you willing to take full responsibility for the implications of your "choice"? Are you willing to equally value and respect the implications your "choice" has on other people?

Some thoughts.


[edit on 31-5-2009 by leo123]

There is no one right way to think. My opinion is... if I hopped in bed with some guy and got knocked up. I will do my responsibility and take care of that child financially AND emotionally. If I were not able to do that, then that child would be put up for adoption. However, I also know I was raised in a family that would willingly step up and give me the support I would need if I needed it. Which I would not financially anyway. I would work as many jobs as necessary to take care of my child.

As to what others should be doing. If people were being responsible then there wouldn't be one night stands, condoms would be used responsibly WITH birth control. There are millions of couples out there right now unable to have children. If neither father nor mother wanted that baby one of those millions of childless couples would jump - very high - to be given the chance to care and love that child.

Yea, I have no problems with other people stepping up and claiming responsibility for their actions. If you play in the sheets, then you should pay for the child. It took two to tango. As to the woman being responsible. Read my post again. BOTH should be held financially accountable until the child's 18th birthday unless the child is adopted. There are tons of kids right now in child care but if people knew they were going to have their checks docked pay automatically they would be a LOT more careful of their sexual encounters.

As to you being a "playa" with ladies as you seem to be suggesting... If that floats your boat... then please just wrap before tap.

I am a dreamer but I would rather dream high than live low. A child is a blessing. An annoying, chattering, headache causing blessing. Raising a child is not easy.... sex should not be either.

As to the quote... What the H*LL were YOU READING?!?! That doesn't even come close to what that actually says...

"For example look at your signature line. It's all about you and to hell with anyone else. Hmmm?"

It means I am my personal caretaker. it means that I take care of my health first not the doctors. I know my body better than any doctor and to fully check out what the doctor wants to do to me. I am the first line of defense for my health as I am the only one who knows what works for me. You read the sexist remark.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

reply to post by leo123


S&F - Feminism like racism is purely another way to confound free speech, and divide society against itself.

I do not live in a western country anymore, I am happy where I am - women are women, and men are men.

Originally posted by Amagnon
reply to post by leo123

 

S&F - Feminism like racism is purely another way to confound free speech, and divide society against itself.

I do not live in a western country anymore, I am happy where I am - women are women, and men are men.

I am sure women for equality are happy for you, too.

Edit: I removed my post because I realised I had misread another poster. Thus My post was not valid and I removed it.

[edit on 31/5/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Can't we all just be and behave like; human beings?

"All Human Beings Are Created Equal"

Ultra-feminist extremism is just as bad as ultra-macho extremism!

Let the boys be boys and let the girls be girls in a natural way without putting labels on them.

It doesn't matter if you are black or white rich or poor or a man or a woman, be a frikkin human being first!

I'm a man and I Iove women for what they are!

I love my mother and I want the best for her!

I love my sister and I want the best for her!

I love my ex-wife! and I still want the best for her!

I just want the women around me to be happy! and I'm trying my best to treat them as equals with love & respect!

If my sister is doing the same work as a man does, and even better sometimes, I support her opinion that she should receive the same pay for it!

I support the womens opinions and their rights about being valued equal to men in the society!

I support the womans right to decide over her own life without old outdated laws made by men and the patriarchical society to suppress her!

Does this mean I favor a matriarchal society?

No! I just want my society to be based on equal rights and common sence!

Is these opinions of mine, radical feminism ?

I would prefer to call them humanism?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by andy1033
OP i want the world to get down to 1 gender, so i do think it is worth it. The ends do justify it for me. Females are destroying themslves for the right to be more male.

I want there to be only one gender and i would bet my life, one day we will be one gender in real terms, and not just in some con like today, with feminism. Mankind will decide to goto one gender as science will have moved on.

Also there is lots of changes being done today.

But one day bye bye one of the genders and we will be a mixture of them both.

I really hope not. Sex is great just the way it is. However, knowing mankind he won't be satisfied until reproduction is done away with and suddenly mankind will die.

You have to laugh at posts like these. We state clearly that the topic is about Feminism, our objections are against Feminism and we get labelled as anti-women. Then, some feel it is justified for them to stereotype and judge males because we don't like or support Feminism.

Do you feel justified blaming and demonising men when they tell you the evils of Feminism? Get off your "girl power!" high horse and realise that we think Feminism is the problem, NOT women!

[edit on 31/5/2009 by Dark Ghost]

OK... unsure of what you read out of that... Read the post. I stated sex is GREAT and it would suck it it were taken away. I did not post ONE THING about FEMINISM or ANTIWOMANISM... maybe andy1033 stated that he/she believes that the human race will probably go to asexual reproduction in the distance future (and looks forward to it for some reason - his/her choice) but that wasn't antiwomanism or even feminism... that would probably fall under medical science or biology theories?

Is anyone actually really reading the posts? Or just jumping on the high horse without at least READING. It is fine to jump on the high horse ONCE YOU HAVE READ THE THREAD AND the posts to which you HAVE ACTUALLY READ. that is what debate and discussion is about.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]