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Was Hercules an African?

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posted on Feb, 8 2003 @ 01:56 AM
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" Black he stood as night, His bow uncased, his arrow strung for flight". Homer wrote this verse to describe the legendary first world hero known as Hercules. The first verse with some modification could also be true of the legendary first world heroine, the Amazon. They were two African world teachers who left a legacy of goodwill which was emulated by their successors.

Hercules and Amazon were the prototypes of the solar hero and heroine whose origins in Africa came forth as inspiration in the development of schools. In Ethiopia schools were established for the training of the mind, body and will. Training and education for these schools spread to Egypt, the Middle East, India, Ireland, and other places in Europe.

Herodotus wrote about Hercules in name and in concept as being Ethiopian and Egyptian in origin. Hercules was called Hr k3 during the 2nd century B.C. which means that Hercules is: the human incarnation of human creative energies, dynamic human potential at work, as heavenly productive powers, and as the power of positive miracles. Hr k3 is the person that defeated the dragon Apophis. Hr k3 was an aspect of Tutu (Hercules as the walking lion. 'Great in valiance, son of Neit'). Neit is the mother of Hercules of Egypt who was later called Alcmene - Athena by Thebans. The 2nd century in Egypt was the period when honors given to Hercules were the most popular. Hr K3 and Tutu were known as being part of Shu (Shu -Hercules), the god of air. Horus (hr p hrd), 'Horus the Child' (Harpokrates in Greek) is related to Hr K3. We have already shown that Horus was an older name for Hercules. The 3rd century librarian Erastothenes when listing the kings of Thebes acknowledges Pharaoh Semphrukrates as 'Hercules Harpokrates'.

Link - pages.prodigy.net...




posted on Feb, 8 2003 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by deepwaters
" Black he stood as night, His bow uncased, his arrow strung for flight". Homer wrote this verse to describe the legendary first world hero known as Hercules.

Funny, I thought that the world's first hero was Gilgamensh...Sumerian...Much older than *any* Greek legends. It was said that he was 2/3 of divine origin (Three parents?
). At the very least, Gilgamesh's skin would be deeply bronzed (if not black) though.

Also, you've been spelling his name wrong...Heracles, not Hercules. He was named after his step-mother, Hera. Don't feel bad about that, because it would surprise you to find out how many modern-day people make the same mistake.

Actually, as much as history will claim that the modern western societies have taken the lead from the Greeks, what is much less known is how much the Greeks borrowed from Egyptian culture. However, during much of its "classic history", Greece followed the Mesopotamian system of government: Politically independant City-States, each making alliances and enemies of its neighbors on a consistant basis. Egypt was the first country to develop a *politically unified* government & still remains in history as maintaining its indiginous culture for the longest. Even during the Intermediate periods, Egypt maintained its own *culture*, the conquering rulers adopting Egypt's culture as their own during their relatively short periods of rule.

However, the *concept* of Heracles, as a hero & figure of mythical porportions, being a common thread throughout history is an intriquing notion that I hadn't contemplated before...Even though there's much in that article that I don't agree with, this underlying premise has some validity.



posted on Feb, 8 2003 @ 02:14 PM
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Good point about the spelling MidnightDestroyer, I've always seen and spelt it that way. I did a search using your spelling and found Heracles being the same historical person.

Thanks for teaching me something new,
Deep



posted on Feb, 8 2003 @ 09:14 PM
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I don't understand...the Greeks were a totally independant and isolated culture since at about 1000 BC they hit a dark age that would last till around 500 BC, during that Dark Age the Dorian Invasion occured, and greatly influenced greek culture from then on, replacing the former Myconean and Minoan cultures.

I can think that several things are wrong, your translation of Homer's story, your interpretation of "Black as Night" or by absolutism with the Dorian invasion.

But the latter is pretty well founded, the Greek culture (Age of Heros) drove the Classical Greeks to the far distant lands, that you say influenced them.

But before Classical greece, and after Mycenae and Mino, they were a shut off society more or less, developing a culture completely of their own, as trade was slow, and no one immigrated to Greece in any way (Ruling out a black man becoming a hero of Greece during the Age of Heros).

But it definately merits more research, I just want more historical backing, and broader quotes, then just one liners.

See it's just confusing, because Hercules and most of the Greek culture was set in the 800s, and yet you are talking about the 2nd and 3rd centuries, well after Greek Culture had passed, and Myceneans from the north were replacing them with a completely new way of thinking, though not replacing the stories...

Sincerely,
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posted on Feb, 8 2003 @ 09:29 PM
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enough said.



posted on Feb, 8 2003 @ 10:48 PM
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That's a lie, enough said.

I suggest you research Greek History better, or you provide better proof, Greece didn't "steal" anyone's culture, that's not the way oral societies worked.

Greece was an Oral society, they passed on their cultural identity through stories (herakles//theogony//Illiad) and no Greek would bother to learn Egyptian WRITTEN religion, and borrow it as their own identity.

Go to college Illimatic.

Sincerely,
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posted on Feb, 8 2003 @ 11:09 PM
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The greeks aborbed the cultures they conquered. I dont think they took all aspects but they did the defeated culturekeep there language. So in a since Hercules could be a eqyptian with a greek twist because the greeks absorbed the nation fold tales.



posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 12:34 AM
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An intriguing old favourite:
alas, in the relevant line of Odyssey Book ix, it is the night that is black (it's a rare word and as easily could be "dark", "murky" -it's used elsewhere for "blood" for example - there are perfectly good words for "black" that could also fit the scansion, with a little tinkering): "like shadowy night" -"eremnei nukti eoikos," and the simile describes the shade of Heracles- not him: he was taken up to Olympus: being a demi-god.
If you juggled Greek or Homer from now to the end of time -it will never be a description of a "black" Heracles.



posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 12:44 AM
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Other inaccuracies above, interested readers may search for as they will: but there was NEVER anyone called "Amazon" ( some famous Amazons are named e.g. Penthesilea).



posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 12:55 AM
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Good detective work Estragon
QuickSilver I must disagree.

My point is that when Greek culture was FOUNDED, during the times of the Dorian Invasions, some 800-600-400BCs they had little contact with the outside world.

Not to say NO contact, but little, they were busy fighting eachother, and they didn't really make much worth trading for.

It wasn't until closer to the wars with persia, when the Greek states were finally settling down, and spreading their views.

But during the time periods 1000BC-800BC Greece was totally in upheval, and it is during this time that Greek mythology was well founded.

Again, an Oral society does not "BORROW" from other oral societies, it is completely situational, hence all the similarities.

The Sun is the Sun, so you'll make a god out of it that "rides" across the sky, this does not mean that any society borrowed that idea from the other.

Same with the "Half-mortal half-god" figure, present in nearly ALL oral societies.

Sincerely,
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posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 02:40 AM
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Indeed, the Ancient Greeks themselves were quite capable of scepticism on their gods: posters unfamiliar with the 3rd Century BC, Euhemerus, might be interested in some research on him: an important figure in religious thinking.
Essentially, he concluded that the Greek Gods were by and large remnants of legends of perfectly mortal but heroic men and women from the dim past.



posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 07:06 AM
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There have been some excellent insights posted in this thread regarding the Greeks. Ive not studied the Greeks very much, being more interested in the Sumerian and Egyptian cultures. I love debating and learning new things about topics that interest me, and welcome every opportunity to learn more.

Quoting FreeMason: I can think that several things are wrong, your translation of Homer's story, your interpretation of "Black as Night" or by absolutism with the Dorian invasion.

When I posted this thread, I placed a question mark at the end of the title because I found the claim of Hercules (Heracles) being African to be controversial.

Im wondering though if there have been some misperceptions though about the source of the information provided in my original post. All information presented was written by the author of the article, not I. Ive quoted the author, Samuel D. Ewing in the article blurb, even in the spelling of the name: Hercules. The e-mail address given for contacting the author or asking questions is: SARASWATI@prodigy.net

I am very willing to respectfully listen to others points of views and re-consider my own if convinced that Im in error. However, this time it may be a case of assuming that the article contents are my own research and writing.

I do have several Ancient Greek writings in my archived files, and will read them soon. Some of the titles are: Alexander the Great, Aristides, Lysander, The Odyssey, The History of Herodotus, The Peloponnesian War and Themistocles and would appreciate any guidance, insights or comments regarding them.

All the Best,
Deep



posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 05:18 PM
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Well this seems like as good a point as any, Greece is an amazing culture because it was one of the most scientific cultures, they wrote down history and observed the changes that their society went through when going from an "oral" society to a "written" one, not many other societies did that, Jews are a good example, where they wrote down their oral beliefs and later some 500 years, they began to take them as literally the WORDS of god.

Anyways...I love what Socrates said, and I'm paraphrasing...

"Writing is the bane of humanity, it dumbs the mind, and makes you lose your memory, writing makes me sick!"



The difference is Situational vs. Abstract, and that's why I've put such imphasis on looking at this historically, where Herakles came from was the 800s time period maybe some bit before, but mainly after the fall of Mycenae.

Same with Achilles, these men were not "immortalized" until they were spoken of as half-gods by later greeks, laying down their identity as a culture.

This is why I don't think Greeks borrowed anything really from any other culture, due to their Dark Age, they were completely autonomous.

The translation also can be a big problem, I know that colleges demand certain translations, as others can be WAY off and totally miss the meaning.

But the best way, is to just learn ancient greek, and read them for yourself....Ancient Greek is quite a poetic language versus what greek is now today...remarkable really...too bad I never bothered to learn it


Sincerely,
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posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 08:15 PM
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Dear deep-W,
you will find the Penguin Classics are generally exceptionally good translations of the Greek.
Homer remains the core text: both Iliad and Odyssey: Aristotle can be hard going but Plato's diaologues are all worth reading.
Xenophon is also a good read and Herodotius gives you a fascinating picture of the world through Greek eyes.
If you want to venture along the study of Greek (it's difficult) - the best texts (not usually in literary terms but in terms of literalness of translation - they're meant for studentsry - they're quite expensive new; but with the decline of Classics in Britain you can often pick up good bargains in second-hand Loeb's. If you're in London, you're seldom disappointed if you tour the second-hand bookshops around Charing cross.
Happy studying.



posted on Feb, 9 2003 @ 08:21 PM
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Herodotus is very interesting on the topic of the Greek view of the Egyptians - and will probably give you a better idea of how the Greeks viewed "barbarians" than anyone else.
I would also recommend Penguin translations of the dramatists: Aristophanes for the comedy and Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides for the tragedies.
I'd say they give you a better insight into the Greek (or at least the Athenian) view of life than any other source.



posted on Feb, 10 2003 @ 08:35 AM
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Thank you Estragon, for your intelligent and articulate contributions to this thread.

Ive read the histories of Herodotus a couple of years ago and found his description of Egyptian culture, customs and (known to me) building complexes, extremely interesting.

Some critics of Herodotus claim that he bent truth, exaggerated and is a generally unreliable source of information. However, I enjoy reading about antiquity from authors who lived back then.

BTW: have you ever read the works of Josephus? He gives very detailed information about how the Roman army was organised and went about their business. And the tales of Royal Family intrigues and murder almost never end.

Thanks again for your insights,
Deep



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