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When does an anti-Masonic stance become hate speech?

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posted on May, 30 2009 @ 12:29 AM
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We had a fairly clear statement from management not too long ago pledging to put an end to hate speech on ATS.

I'm fine with everyone having their own opinions on matters, and I understand that there are a number of people who may have negative opinions of Freemasonry for a variety of reasons. But when people say "just kill them and clean the world full stop" or "in my opinion the only good freemason is a dead freemason", isn't that crossing a line? I mean, substitute a race or religion for "freemason" in that sentence and you've got clear grounds for a post ban, by Springer's words. I recognize that Masons are not a protected class in any legal sense, but I can't see how calling for our deaths is not "spreading hate rather than discussing the policies, actions and world events."

So where's the line? Or is there one?




posted on May, 30 2009 @ 01:00 AM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 


I would tend to agree with you that on many occasions I have seen that line crossed myself. Far too often people are allowed to run roughshod on some of these threads without any regard for fellow ATS members, T&C, or just plain old manners. Personally, the examples that you have set out clearly show that there are those that harbor hatred towards that which they do not (or think they) understand. If you inserted a religion or race into those statements than, they would indeed have been removed from the thread.

Hate speech they are and it should not be tolerated in any capacity. Don't feel "too" bad though level minded Christians like myself (or at least "I" like to think of myself that way) get attacked by atheistic "religiophobes" (if that constitutes a word )
on a regular basis. I feel that the only reason that they hold the heavy punches and insults is because I can go to a mod and say that this is religious intolerance. In turn the mod would be forced to act. As you stated the Freemasons seem to have no such protection other than a persons personal restraint of which you have shown, some have little of.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by lazy1981]



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 02:55 AM
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In the United States we have a 'Free Marketplace of Ideas' (Abrams v. United States), which essentially means you can say whatever you want. Logic decides what ideas are accepted and which are rejected.

The basic notion is that ideas that are not favorable will be abandoned by society, as well as hateful speech scorned. It's not the government's job to decide what ideas should be propagated, it's on the people to discard ideas they don't like and adopt what they do.

I might also add that speech is only criminal when violence is imminent (in the United States).

The government should not be restricting speech at all; it's a slippery slope down to tyranny and oppression. If they include the Freemasons in hate speech, there will be no limit to what they will clamp down on.

I am not advocating violent speech. I am just saying the government has no role in regulating free speech in America. The government is already an overbearing beast, it doesn't need any more additional powers.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by JipStix]



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 04:08 AM
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reply to post by JipStix
 




I am just saying the government has no role in regulating free speech in America. The government is already an overbearing beast, it doesn't need any more additional powers.



Right fine and good, mate, but Josh Norton's post has nothing to do with the government of a country, instead it's with a statement released by the staff of ATS in regards to hate speech.

It's in the first thread that Josh Norton linked to.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by RuneSpider]



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 04:46 AM
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It appears that the zero tolerance doesn't apply to Masons.

To make matters worse, as far as I know, Masons are the only group who are not allowed to unite in defending ourselves, or they call it ganging up and we are in violation of the rules.

So, we're the only group not protected by ATS policy and we're the only group not allowed to defend ourselves. Perhaps there really is a conspiracy against freemasonry by the powers that be in ATS. Perhaps they do have an anti-Masonic agenda after all...



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 05:28 AM
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All of the negativity towards Freemasonry comes from both their openness and secrecy combined, creating confusion and confliction. Misinformation and disinformation and half-truths play a role also. They are open for a reason and secretive for a reason. To entise the curious without fear into a world completely contrary to their existing one. One must be benovolent in nature and have an interest in religion. Also for a very good reason. Religion plays a big part in masonic teachings as Freemasonry is all about who we are and how we came to be. One be must able to handle the truth and keep the secret. It is both a privilige and a burden to be a privi freemason. Being given this amazing knowledge and not being able to tell anyone out of the circle even if he or she is a loved one. I can understand why a "cast member" would want be be with another cast member. That way there is no secrets atleast between them. I say cast members because they are exctly that. "Cast Members" of a global Truman Show where we have all been playing the role of Truman Burbank.
Freemasonry is not what it seems once the veil of fear, put there by "paraniod" conspiracy theorists, is taken away from your eyes. Think 3 little pigs.
Only the house of masonry protected them from the big bad wolf. (The Vatican)
The industrial revolution wasn't called the industrial revolution for nothing.
I'm quite sure the cross would prefer we were all still getting around on horse and cart and blacksmithing for the crown. The industrial revolution was a big win win for us all. The obect of freemasonry was and is to leak technological knowledge back into the populas to remake the society we once held in predeluvian times. Make no mistake there are alot of good guys on the inside. but are helpless to help us when we continue fill the shoes of the enemy by buying into the whole fear scenario and joining militaries and becoming the very thing that is destroying us. We are essentially our own worst enemies. I hope we all realise sooner rather than later. So buy and large freemasonry is not the enemy here. Go easy on the ones that are trying to help. They're the good guys I really do believe. The vatican seem to be the ones to be weary of. Centuries of torture and pursicution and wars and inquisitions all in the name of GOD. I read all CIA agents and some well to do political figures have Jesuit training. Thats vatican related isnt it?. Mkultra is a CIA stunt is it not? Political figures that are as shady as a tree in a thunder storm all play the god card. It all stinks to high "heaven" of vatican foul play. I won't even mention the kiddy f**king
by many catholic preists throughout the world. Oh wait, I just did

Its high time people shake away unnecessary fears and feel comfort in the fact that theres nothing to be afraid of and there never was. You then know Kung Fu!



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 05:44 AM
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Oh yeah I forgot to get to the point.He he
It becomes hate speech when it ensights fear, anger and mistrust based upon hearsay and half-truths.
I'm familiar with the Mark Phillips and Cathy O'brien story and how her father ran a blue masonic lodge. There IS good and bad in everything. Where the good goes, the bad follows. Where the bad goes, the good follows. Like a dog chasing its own tail. Its not all straight and narrow, black and white. Its dark, murky, complicated and none of my business. Its not my world and nor would I want it to be. I wouldn't last a week.
I'd end up face down in a river somewhere from spilling the beans.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 08:48 AM
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Originally posted by Saurus
It appears that the zero tolerance doesn't apply to Masons.

To make matters worse, as far as I know, Masons are the only group who are not allowed to unite in defending ourselves, or they call it ganging up and we are in violation of the rules.
SO has cited instances of other forums being dealt with in similar manners regarding what he considers "gang posting" so in that sense I'm not singling Masons out as being persecuted or neglected by ATS staff.

It's really as simple as

  1. I'm a member of a group.
  2. Someone with an extremist viewpoint calls for the death of all members of that group.
  3. How can I not take that personally?

It really should not matter what the group is, the T&C suggest extreme hatred will not be tolerated, and yet in spite of alerts on the posts I cited originally (including a closer look by AshleyD at the "kill them all" post), nothing, to my knowledge, has been done to curb such behavior. So I'm just asking why?



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 09:03 AM
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Honestly its harder and harder for me to "want" to come to ATS now a days for this reason. It seems like if you have a group of free masons in anyone thread debunking a claim or any other issue, we are considered gaining up on that person or claim or called dis info masons. It is getting worse and worse and the same claims are getting posted over and over its really tiresome. Also not to mention the name calling and crossing the line statements as fitzgibbon has mentioned.

I understand why there are a discussion of Freemasons on ATS and i am glad there is, but when people start coming on and writing some of the stuff i see in some threads, without being open-minded on the subject, then it becomes not even worth the time to respond back to that person because all they will say is that we are low level masons, or blinded by the truth. Thats right...they know the REAL truth about Masonry over Masons on this thread who have been so for either a short period or a long period who have "experience" and "education" on the matter. Isn't that the strongest characteristics for expert opinion?

I also see almost a non-existent or minimal existence of mods watching over what the others have to say when it comes to crossing the lines with T&C on the threads. So should we disregard the words and posts of Freemasons on this forum as not applicable to the claim? It almost seems that way...



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 09:08 AM
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As long as nothing is directed at an individual or group of individuals I wouldn't call it hate speech. Hating Free Masonry is different from hating Free Masons in my opinion.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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I know ATS is already regarded as a Masonic Site by a fair few conspiracy sites out there at present, and I imagine trying to find a good balance keeping members of the site happy in general, and specific members in particular is difficult.
After all, look at the amount of religious bashing, Catholic bashing in particular, skeptic bashing, and the recent thread about killing dumb people.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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Exactly right. The same can be said of the Vatican. I don't dislike all the people within, just the bad ones and the entire entity itself



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 09:56 AM
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Originally posted by Exoviewer
Exactly right. The same can be said of the Vatican. I don't dislike all the people within, just the bad ones and the entire entity itself
Then people should advocate the dissolution of the institution, not the murder of its members.

Is the wholesale, indiscriminate call for violence against anyone ever justifiable within the structure of the ATS community?



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by depth om
As long as nothing is directed at an individual or group of individuals I wouldn't call it hate speech. Hating Free Masonry is different from hating Free Masons in my opinion.


Would "the only good freemason is a dead freemason" qualify as hate speech in your lexicon? To me, that's pretty unequivocally directed at "an individual or group of individuals" and not directed at hating just Freemasonry.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 10:04 AM
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The call to Violence never amounts to anything positive or constructive, only counter-production and destruction. Theres no wisdom in violence.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 10:07 AM
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And yes I would rather the dissolution of the vatican than the violent persicution of the bad guys within.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by JipStix


The government should not be restricting speech at all; it's a slippery slope down to tyranny and oppression. If they include the Freemasons in hate speech, there will be no limit to what they will clamp down on.

... I am just saying the government has no role in regulating free speech in America. The government is already an overbearing beast, it doesn't need any more additional powers.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by JipStix]


Good thing the OP wasn't advocating for the government to clamp down on hate speech. Instead he was asking a private community to enforce its terms and conditions. There is a large difference between the government locking you up for threatening to kill someone of a particular group and an internet message board not allowing those kinds of threatening (empty as those threats may be) messages and ideas to be propagated using their site. I agree with you though, in regards to your comment on government; it should be used in the same way as hot sauce, very sparingly.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


Yea it would. It's just one guy on the internets though. So, who really cares what that one guy thinks? I wouldn't let it ruin my day.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by depth om
 


Not to answer for Fitzy, but I do not think any of us really cares what they guy thinks. It is, in my opinion, more of a perceived double standard regarding hate speech and the repercussions there of.



posted on May, 30 2009 @ 11:09 AM
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agreed, ill say that im against the realities that today, generations later, like a copy of recording the more copies, the worse condition it gets. That is what I realise im angry at. Not masons or freemasons, or even religion. I would have to hate myself as well by that logic, which i do sometimes.

I see that as time progresses, all things develope entropy. And in that are random fluxs' of events. Over time, and in its own visions of the world, mankind in general blindly grinds in a world they made for themselves, realising it or not. Living in denial of it and using bandaids to fix a gushng wound, sometimes in mass slipping into a mind that only sees futility subsequently creating cynicism and apathy to pain. I understand that now.

Dont hate anyone, thats illogical and unreasonable. Respect.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by mastermind77]



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