Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit

I am no christian but this is just plain wrong and outrageous. I cannot see where in the world this could be seen as a religious gathering needing a permit. I do hope they take this all the way to the Supreme Court! I believe that many people will support them on this one, christian or not this is a huge violation of their privacy and the use of their own property and home.

It would be so nice if christians would stand with others who believe differently than they do in similar circumstance. Maybe this will open the door for more compassion and tolerance from the Christian community to those that go through similar things.

It is time to take these people on with all that we have. To tell anyone they cannot gather in a private home for fellowship and bible study is like living in the old USSR.

Wait lets not pull out the "Jump to Conclusions" mat here.

If it was a parking problem relating to taking neighbors parking spaces or parking in lawns that would NOT have ANY bearing on the Bible Study portion of this story.

If it was about the cars being parked in the road all the time it would have been resolved by ticketing and towing the cars NOT ticketing the Bible Study.

Why was the bible study was an issue?

For all the story tells us everyone parked at the local Walmarts and carpooled to the house in a Van.

Originally posted by drift393
Don't care who complained or didn't complain to get them in trouble
First Amendment in our Bill of Rights.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Stay the hell out of my religious beliefs!! (or lack thereof).

Have you ever lived next to someone who had weekly gathering/assembly in their home?

1. Do they take up a lot of limited street parking?
2. Do they bring their children and let them run wild?
3. Do they proselytize the neighbors?
4. Do they sing loudly?
5. Do they leave trash on the lawn (trust me a bible does not mean you are neat and respect the neighbors)

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with religion.

Originally posted by Jadette
It is ridiculous - makes me wonder how such a thing got implimented.

But I'll bet it's one of those things that rarely gets enforced. In this case, the news story posted here:

www.10news.com...

claims that one of the bible study participants hit a neighbor's car and so there was a complaint against them.

Also, it's one thing to have people over on occasion, and it's another to do it once a week, every week, for 5 years. I think if they were my neighbors and I had the traffic of 15 plus cars weekly invading my street, I might be a little disgruntled. You live in a residental neighborhood for a reason - if you wanted to live next door to some social venue, you would.

Apples and oranges. One is a traffic accident and the other is the freedom to assemble and the freedom to excercise religion.

Also, your sentence "I had the traffic of 15 plus cars weekly invading my street" - kind of ridiculous, first of all it's not YOUR street. It's a public street. You get no say in who accesses the street at all. Your driveway? Yes. The street you live on? No. The neighbors pay their taxes like you do, so they are free to have friends over.

If you don't like it you can always leave your house for an hour or two until "the INVADERS" have left.


[edit on 28-5-2009 by sos37]

reply to post by Annee


Your arguments hold no merit, either. This is what you have HOME OWNER ASSOCIATIONS for. If you live in a neighborhood where your neighbors are causing you all sorts of headaches, but they aren't necessarily doing anything illegal, then maybe you are the one with the problem - not them. And when I say that I mean maybe that neighborhood is no longer to your liking. Perhaps you need one that fits your lifestyle better. Maybe you should move to a neighborhood with strict HOA bylaws who like to dictate such things like what you listed.

But be careful what you wish for. Some HOA's go way over the top when it comes to telling their communities what to do. Take this one, for example. A Frisco HOA tells a homeowner he cannot park a brand new Ford F-150 in his own driveway because the vehicle is not on the "accepted vehicles list" for curb appeal, meaning he will have to park it behind the house or in the garage, but it cannot be parked in front of the house in plain site.

www.dallasnews.com...



[edit on 28-5-2009 by sos37]

Originally posted by sos37
Also, your sentence "I had the traffic of 15 plus cars weekly invading my street" - ykind of ridiculous, first of all it's not YOUR street. It's a public street. You get no say in who accesses the street at all. Your drive? Yes. The street you live on? No. The neighbors pay their taxes like you do, so they are free to have friends over.

If you don't like it you can always leave your house for an hour or two until "the INVADERS" have left.

You are wrong. Most people are not even aware of what laws are on their city books.

But - I can tell you laws are made for Complaint. If someone Complains - laws are enacted.

I once had a crazy neighbor complain my TV was too loud. The city came out and put sound meters at the perimeter of my yard. That was only one incident with this crazy neighbor.

If neighbors are complaining - - laws WILL be enacted.

-------------------------------

You seriously believe a Home Owner's Association is going to over ride Real Laws?



[edit on 28-5-2009 by Annee]

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by sos37
Also, your sentence "I had the traffic of 15 plus cars weekly invading my street" - ykind of ridiculous, first of all it's not YOUR street. It's a public street. You get no say in who accesses the street at all. Your drive? Yes. The street you live on? No. The neighbors pay their taxes like you do, so they are free to have friends over.

If you don't like it you can always leave your house for an hour or two until "the INVADERS" have left.

You are wrong. Most people are not even aware of what laws are on their city books.

But - I can tell you laws are made for Complaint. If someone Complains - laws are enacted.

I once had a crazy neighbor complain my TV was too loud. The city came out and put sound meters at the perimeter of my yard. That was only one incident with this crazy neighbor.

If neighbors are complaining - - laws WILL be enacted.

Uh, no I'm not wrong. You have NO SAY in who can come down your street and you have NO SAY in who can and cannot meet at your neighbors house (not including gated areas, obviously). I challenge you to show me one law that says this power rests with an individual.

Your example is an example of a noise violation, which almost all cities enforce. If a meeting, Bible Study, party, etc. is making too much noise then yes, it can be called in for a noise violation.

You say "If neighbors are complaining - - laws WILL be enacted" - that is not true. If neighbors complain that I am always wearing the color red will laws be inacted to make me wear other colors? What if neighbors complain that I think too loudly? What if they complain that I haven't washed my car in a week and isn't shiny? Will laws be enacted? Use some common sense. It depends on WHAT neighbors are complaining about.

[edit on 28-5-2009 by sos37]

reply to post by sos37


SOS, respectfully it is your arguments that hold no merit.

The zoning laws in communities are precisely for this situation. The ingress and egress of a neighborhood is not designed for "assemblies." The building "setbacks" are not designed for commercial type noise. The water and sewer systems are not rated for the "density" of this type of operation. By the same token, you cannot manufacture anything at your residence, or sell retail items on your curbside. Sure it happens a lot, but once a neighbor complains, the jig is up, and you must either relocate the operation, buy a permit, or cease the violation.

Not all neighborhoods have homeowner's associations, and the ones that do can only enforce the restrictions through litigation.

It requires the city or county police to come out and enforce a code violation. Parking and assembly or religion are one and the same. As I alluded to earlier, my poker game is the exact same as their prayer group when it comes to code violations.

The street most certainly does belong to everyone. It is paid for by tax dollars, and it must be shared. That is why the party once in a while is overlooked, but when it becomes a regular thing, they are using more than their fair share of the space.

edit:

What if neighbors complain that I think too loudly? What if they complain that I haven't washed my car in a week and isn't shiny? Will laws be enacted? Use some common sense. It depends on WHAT neighbors are complaining about.

Do you live in a city? If your car is broken down in your driveway, the city will fine you. Even if the tag is current, the vehicle must be operable, even on your own private property.

Common sense comes from experience, and it appears you have not had any experience in this field.

If the neighbors complained about you "thinking" too loudly, a police officer would come to your house and investigate. They probably wouldn't cite you, because it would be hard to prove. If a neighbor complains that you don't pull your shades down and you watch TV nude, you will be getting a citation. Yes, it is illegal to be naked in your own living room, if you don't take the precaution of pulling the blinds!

[edit on 28-5-2009 by getreadyalready]

I don't understand how giving the government several thousand dollars suddenly makes a difference between before and after. Unless they're have a Jesusstock with hundreds or thousands of people on their property which hinders their neighbors who cares? And I hate Christians and Christianity but I'll stand up for their right to their religion and their right to be left alone.

Originally posted by sos37

Uh, no I'm not wrong. You have NO SAY in who can come down your street and you have NO SAY in who can and cannot meet at your neighbors house (not including gated areas, obviously). I challenge you to show me one law that says this power rests with an individual.

Are you defending Right of Assembly or Religion?

I know there are lots of obscure laws on city books - most people never heard of. Those laws do surface if needed. Complaining neighbors are taken very seriously.

Heck - I had a 21 piece jazz band that practiced in my house every Sunday. Fortunately - my neighbors came over and partied with the band.

reply to post by sos37


No, not apples and oranges since my point was about the likelyhood that the ordinance would be enforce were it not for the accident that occured and the subsequent complaint.

As for how ridiculous my other statements are, my only claim was that I would be disgruntled, not that I felt I had a right to dictate what happened. As someone who HAS had troublesome neighbors who managed to make my life miserable, I only wished to point out that such assembly might have given people cause to be unhappy.

And again, I never said it was 'wrong' to have friends over, but that it wasn't the same thing as regular, weekly assembly. This is not 3 people coming over for burgers and football every sunday, or even the omg, my son invited 25 people to his birthday party that occurs on occasion. This is using a home in a residental neighboorhood, weekly, for years and years and years, for a large assembly of people which, from experience, could have upset the other people who live in that neighborhood.

I hope my points are more clear since it seems you didn't understand them.

Originally posted by Annee

"Complaining neighbors are taken very seriously"

I dunno about that statement. I say it depends on the neighbor and the nature of the complaint, but then I've never been a police officer. However I will say that I cannot believe, for example, that a man who is complaining to the police that their neighbors are spying on his thoughts will be taken seriously. The police might well come out all right, but to search the complaintants house for drugs.

Well people should learn that there is an amendment that states freedom of relifion a bunch of [snip] if you ask me


Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 28-5-2009 by mrwupy]

Originally posted by getreadyalready

The zoning laws in communities are precisely for this situation. The ingress and egress of a neighborhood is not designed for "assemblies." The building "setbacks" are not designed for commercial type noise. The water and sewer systems are not rated for the "density" of this type of operation. By the same token, you cannot manufacture anything at your residence, or sell retail items on your curbside. Sure it happens a lot, but once a neighbor complains, the jig is up, and you must either relocate the operation, buy a permit, or cease the violation.

EXACTLY! Once a neighbor complains.

Then you have a long drawn out fight on your hands. You might win - you might not!

What is it worth to you?

I feel we're getting a head of ourselves a bit. This is a new story so not all the facts are in. We don't know about their noise level, zoning laws, etc. We don't know how much parking space they're taking up. They could be carpooling for all we know. Ten to fifteen people does not mean 10-15 cars in the case of a family attending in one vehicle, for example.

Since the article does not mention such specifics, let's not worry about the speculation for now and instead try to focus on what we do know.

The line of questioning makes me curious- it was very religious-specific according to the article. That tells me it had nothing to do with traffic, zoning, or neighbor complaints. That tells me this is religious in nature and they are specifically requesting a religious gathering of a Bible study to have a permit.

With the information the article provides, that is all I can go on for now without throwing in speculative cogs into the issue. So, from what information we are given, I will say this is inherently wrong, unconstitutional, and completely ridiculous to expect citizens to pay thousands of dollars worth of permits to hold a Bible study of 10-15 people in their own home.

That's all I really have to say.

[edit on 5/28/2009 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by sos37

Originally posted by Annee

"Complaining neighbors are taken very seriously"

I dunno about that statement. I say it depends on the neighbor and the nature of the complaint, but then I've never been a police officer. However I will say that I cannot believe, for example, that a man who is complaining to the police that their neighbors are spying on his thoughts will be taken seriously. The police might well come out all right, but to search the complaintants house for drugs.

Trust me - you don't want to have a complaining neighbor. It is a nightmare.

reply to post by Jadette


What's the difference? If 25 people regularly came over to your neighbor's house to watch sports every single weekend you have no right (in a non-HOA area) to tell them they cannot come over to his house to assemble because YOU are tired of dealing with the traffic. As long as they all parked legally along the curb and are not breaking any other laws there would be absolutely nothing you do about it.

Originally posted by AshleyD
I feel we're getting a head of ourselves a bit. This is a new story so not all the facts are in. We don't know about their noise level, zoning laws, etc. We don't know how much parking space they're taking up. They could be carpooling for all we know. Ten to fifteen people does not mean 10-15 cars in the case of a family attending in one vehicle, for example.

Sorry - I was speaking of personal experience of a neighbor who had a weekly group. The problem was "behavior" outside the home - - not inside.

I honestly don't believe this has anything to do with religion itself.

Remember put your crosses up, the spirit of Anti-Christ is now in the world, anything to do with Christianity will come at a price, they will let opposers of Christ come into your countries to do the work for them, you will be banned from saying the word Jesus, yes Americans have gone that far too, can not people see behind the scenes and the big picture? It's obvious but people have been dumbed down to not know the patterns.

[edit on 28-5-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by sos37


Again, sos37, I'm not sure how I can say this any more clear.

My point about 'the difference' was simply this: I would never be upset about the other set of circumstances (ie the occasional big gathering or the regular smaller such thing). But yes, I wouldn't be happy if one of my neighbors started gathering in the numbers and regularity that this article claims. But maybe I'm confusing you by adding this point; at any rate, to clarify, I never claimed to have any sort of right to dictate their behavior, only that I could understand why people would be unhappy about such things happening.