9/11 Aircraft 'Black Box' Serial Numbers Mysteriously Absent

reply to post by hooper
You didn't really say that, did you?

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

OMG.

WHERE in FOIA law does it state that because you have theories, the government has the right to refuse info to you? What kind of BS are you peddling now, Dave?

Ahem...I am cutting and pasting this off the Department of Justice's Freedom of Information Act web page:

The FOIA's nine exemptions authorize federal agencies to withhold information covering: (1) classified national defense and foreign relations information; (2) internal agency rules and practices; (3) information that is prohibited from disclosure by another federal law; (4) trade secrets and other confidential commercial or financial information; (5) inter-agency or intra-agency communications that are protected by legal privileges; (6) information involving matters of personal privacy; (7) records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes, to the extent that the production of those records (A) could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings, (B) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication, (C) could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, (D) could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of and/or information provided by a confidential source, (E) would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or would disclose guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or (F) could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual; (8) information relating to the supervision of financial institutions; and (9) geological information on wells. The three exclusions pertain to especially sensitive law enforcement and national security matters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those serial numbers are airlines property, not the gov'ts property, so it's akin to you demanding the gov't tell you the VIN of your neighbor's truck solely on the gounds that "you're nosy". This IS an "unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" whether you happen to agree with the statement or not. It's the exact same reason why they didn't release "all those Pentagon videos they took from the nearby businesses- the video belongs to the businesses, not to the gov't", and it's not theirs to give out.

...and I will ask again- even if they did give them out, what would you do with them?

Can't do it? Then no deal. If the damn military itself had any REAL balls, they'd get a battalion to march into the FBI offices, with tanks and close air support, if need be, grab the FBI director by the throat, put a gun to his head, and say "hand over the damn serial numbers, AND the maintenance records. NOW. We're SICK of your damn lies after Iraq, and you're getting us killed for political motivation. Now it's YOUR turn to pay, with your life if need be. SERIAL NUMBERS! NOW!!!!"

You DO realize this statement is all but an open admission that these conspiracy theories of yours are being driven by your own personal antiestablishment outlook on life more than they are anything else, yes?

Originally posted by dillweed
reply to post by hooper

 

You didn't really say that, did you?

Please be specific, but yes I really did say that Boeing does not keep maintenance records for every plane it builds. Here's a little secret - Boeing builds the planes but then sells them to someone else, and that someone else is responsible for maintaining them. And not every part in every plane has a unique serial number. Just like not every part in your car doesn't a unique number.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those serial numbers are airlines property, not the gov'ts property, so it's akin to you demanding the gov't tell you the VIN of your neighbor's truck solely on the gounds that "you're nosy". This IS an "unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" whether you happen to agree with the statement or not.

If the darn FDR serial numbers were available, just like they are for nearly every single other crash in the history of aviation, then no one would be any more "nosy" than usual. Why is it all of a sudden "personal invasion of private property" because it's 9/11? Isn't there something naturally "fishy" there, worthy of further pursuit?"

Of course I would only expect an interested researcher to hold that point of view. A researcher wouldn't just overlook the fact that lack of serial number identification, conclusively identifying the aircraft, violates their own investigative procedure, as has been shown over and over. Someone from the Q Group or a paid disinformant would though. Nough said.

Above I asked this:

Can you provide information about the FOIA request? At the moment all you have is a piece of essentially legalistic advice that suggests the respondent wasn't familiar with the case itself but was giving an opinion. Is there a record of the request itself and a document that details the refusal?

It may be that there is a detail of this in the links and I have overlooked it. But at the moment it looks like we're being told that a FOIA request has been filed and I'd like to see some evidence of it. And the refusal.

reply to post by TrueAmerican

.....just like they are for nearly every single other crash....

Ah....there's one of my favorite words - nearly! Right up there with almost! So the FDR serial number isn't always available?

By the way - whom have you contacted about this information, besides postings on internet forums? Or do you think all government authorities should have armies of clerks monitoring all websites and posting information as soon as some anonymous poster starts a thread?

reply to post by TrueAmerican

.....just like they are for nearly every single other crash....

Ah....there's one of my favorite words - nearly! Right up there with almost! So the FDR serial number isn't always available?

By the way - whom have you contacted about this information, besides postings on internet forums? Or do you think all government authorities should have armies of clerks monitoring all websites and posting information as soon as some anonymous poster starts a thread?

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by TrueAmerican

 

.....just like they are for nearly every single other crash....

Ah....there's one of my favorite words - nearly! Right up there with almost! So the FDR serial number isn't always available?

By the way - whom have you contacted about this information, besides postings on internet forums? Or do you think all government authorities should have armies of clerks monitoring all websites and posting information as soon as some anonymous poster starts a thread?

Pathetic.

reply to post by dillweed

Pathetic.

Yes it is, isn't it? I mean someone goes on and on and on about how people are "witholding" information from them and yet can't even admit that they have never asked for the information in the first place.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
If the darn FDR serial numbers were available, just like they are for nearly every single other crash in the history of aviation, then no one would be any more "nosy" than usual. Why is it all of a sudden "personal invasion of private property" because it's 9/11? Isn't there something naturally "fishy" there, worthy of further pursuit?"

????? When did anyone ever demand to see serial numbers of black boxes from any other plane crash? It is my understanding...and I notice you have done nothing to disprove it...that the airlines aren't obligated to release the flight recorder serial numbers to the public for any and every plane tragedy, 9/11 related or otherwise. Methinks you are bluffing to cover up the fact you're cherry picking here and you're artificially concentrating on the lack of data for this one specific tragedy to make it sound more spooky-scary that it really is.

You say they're available for every other plane tragedy, so please back the claim up. Show me the SN of the flight recorders for those three planes that were blown up by terrorists in the Jordanian desert back in the 70's. Granted, this is a deviation from the topic of the thread but it's still important for you to show the availability vs restriction of the facts are genuinely as severe as you're making it out to be.

Of course I would only expect an interested researcher to hold that point of view. A researcher wouldn't just overlook the fact that lack of serial number identification, conclusively identifying the aircraft, violates their own investigative procedure, as has been shown over and over. Someone from the Q Group or a paid disinformant would though. Nough said.

No, actually, that's what I would expect from someone grasping at straws in desperation would do. Insisting on seeing data that would be completely useless to you even if it was given to you isn't even remotely research. It's innuendo dropping, and you have to know that such disingenuous stunts are beneath you.

Besides, we both know that if you're the type who needs to use that "sinister secret agents" crutch to prop up your conspiracy theories, as you are clearly doing here, you're also the type who'll insist any information given to you would be dismissed as "sinister secret agent disinformation" before you ever even received it. So in the end, what's the point of this thread?

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by dillweed

 

Pathetic.

Yes it is, isn't it? I mean someone goes on and on and on about how people are "witholding" information from them and yet can't even admit that they have never asked for the information in the first place.

...not to mention, never explained what they're going to do with it even if they did get it. Do they have a master list from the FAA they can use to look up and see if it's a legitimate number or not? Let's find out...

The serial number of the black box for flight 77 is AA-L36657H. AA is the two letter flight registration of the owner (American Airlines), L36657 is the individual device serial number (the leading L3 means it was manufactured by L3 Aviation Recorders), and H is the consecutive letter for the 8th flight recorder that was installed in that aircraft since it was first put into service. Or, am I just making this up off the top of my head?

I very rarely ever post in a 9/11 thread but I am drawn to asking a question. Its a simple question as I like to keep things simple and is asked of ol Dave and Hooper.

Why have the serial numbers not been released?

easy, yea?

respects to you all.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
The serial number of the black box for flight 77 is AA-L36657H. AA is the two letter flight registration of the owner (American Airlines), L36657 is the individual device serial number (the leading L3 means it was manufactured by L3 Aviation Recorders), and H is the consecutive letter for the 8th flight recorder that was installed in that aircraft since it was first put into service. Or, am I just making this up off the top of my head?

Yeah right, so the government is going to give me the fricken serial number on a conspiracy website, and refuse legitimate FOIA requests for the information.

Uh huh. Dave...please. Just.... no.

What do you THINK we'd do with the number Dave? I mean ten billion posts have made it clear to you over the years that the objective is to conclusively identify the aircraft. Not just rely on the word of the government. Because like so many other cases, the word of government have proven to be misleading, outright lies, or omitted altogether.


Oh I see, give us a false number, to test and see what kind of resources there really are to investigate it? Uh huh. What dave is expecting now, no doubt, is for a truth movement answer to what exactly that serial number is, and where it came from. But from 77 it is not, guaranteed.

Originally posted by captiva
I very rarely ever post in a 9/11 thread but I am drawn to asking a question. Its a simple question as I like to keep things simple and is asked of ol Dave and Hooper.

Why have the serial numbers not been released?

easy, yea?

respects to you all.

Released by who? The DOJ isn't going to release the SNs because the SNs is information that belongs to the individual airlines, not the gov't, so they're not going to release it to the public any more than the DMV is going to release the VIN of your neighbor's truck. Even I know that. If you want that information you're going to have to get it from the airlines, and as it was already pointed out, noone here even bothered to actually ask the airlines to see if they're even trying to keep it a secret.

Now how about answering my question- what would you do with the SNs even if you did get them? Unless you can show you have some method of actually being able to reference such information, then this is nothing more than inflating a non-issue to absurd proportions to make it as spooky-scary sounding as possible. "Ooooh, oooh, they won't tell us the serial numbers for the black box, that TOTALLY proves conspiracy" is getting pretty lame as conspiracy mongoring goes. You have to know that.

I hate having to repeat information that is already contained in the OP original link. These are just a sample of a long list, but illustrate what properly sourced FDR serial numbers should look like.

Flight data recorder information provided by the NTSB, for all major U.S. commercial passenger aircraft crashes within U.S. territory, involving major aircraft and/or loss of life, since 1988, with noted FDR serial numbers:

Comair Flight 5191, August 27, 2006, CRJ-100, 49 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 102368
www.ntsb.gov...

Chalk's Ocean Airways Flight 101, December 19, 2005, Grumman G-73, 20 Dead (Not equipped with a FDR)

amelia.db.erau.edu...

Corporate Airlines Flight 5966, October 19, 2004, HP Jetstream, 13 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 00511

www.ntsb.gov...

Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701, October 14, 2004, CL-600-2B19, 2 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Model: 01094

www.ntsb.gov...

US Airways Express Flight 5481, January 8, 2003, Beechcraft 1900, 21 Dead, Fairchild Model F-1000 FDR, Serial Number: 01110

pilotsfor911truth.org...

That's the original link in the OP.

Now, posting known false information is a bannable offense here at ATS. As with the Virus trap on Yaw Damper Function, Dave is deliberately setting a trap, and using ATS to do it. Otherwise, he would have provided a link to a properly sourced pdf, just like the samples above.

And as such I am alerting the mods.

Also:
Can you show us the FDR serial numbers attached to the 911 reports as claimed by vipertech?

Do you agree with vipertech that the FDR serial numbers are attached to the 911 reports?

Of course you can't source a proper link, that's BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST.

Fricken liar.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
These are just a sample of a long list, but illustrate what properly sourced FDR serial numbers should look like.

Now, posting known false information is a bannable offense here at ATS. As with the Virus trap on Yaw Damper Function,

Could you give us the FDR serial number for Egyptair flight 990.

Watch out for virus traps.

Page 25.
www.ntsb.gov...

Note to readers:

At this time, it is imperative that GoodOldDave properly source his claim that he has provided the FDR serial number from AA 77.

If he does not, then there is no question he just provided false information, knowingly.

It is obvious really, that this is total BS. He can't source it. It's nowhere online. A gadzillion researchers have been looking for it for ten years.

Arguing on an internet forum is one thing. But directly, and intentionally, posting patently false information to mislead readers even further is just BS. BS that the staff was alerted to hours ago, and is against ATS T&C.

Either provide a source dave or you will be shown to be the highly suspected government agent/disinformant many of us have always thought you were.

Can't source it: You're a fricken liar.
Can source it: next step, provide the corroborating evidence by record that it matches up to AA 77 airplane records.

If you can't do both those things, all you are doing is spreading lies. I don't believe you any more than I believe the earth is flat.

And readers shouldn't either. More government lies folks- that's all we get these days. We pay taxes to buy lies.

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