9/11 Aircraft 'Black Box' Serial Numbers Mysteriously Absent

In a previous thread I did here at ATS, the issue of the missing serial numbers came up briefly as a related topic. But this is so important, and so additionally damning to the official lie that this really needs its own thread. This was brought to my attention by Rob Balsamo at P4T, and is much appreciated.

The reason this is so important is that it is extremely unusual, and in fact counter to NSTB crash investigation procedure, for serial numbers to be withheld.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Of all major U.S. airline crashes within the U.S. investigated and published by the National Transportation Safety Board during the past 20 years, the 9/11 'black boxes' are virtually the only ones without listed serial numbers.

After all, conclusively identifying the plane you are investigating is an obvious necessity. And nowhere in history has this vetting become more important than in the investigation of 9/11. For if these planes were conclusively identified by serial numbers, it would immediately put to rest immense amounts of speculation.

And yet mysteriously, this is exactly what happened. The FBI withheld the serial numbers of the Flight Data Recorders (FDR) when they procured assistance from the NTSB in analyzing the data.

And the mystery deepens even further in that a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request was filed to obtain these serial numbers, so that there would be no further question as to the identity of the planes.

But the FOIA request was denied, with no apparent legal precedent or rationale for such a decision.

A 1/3/2008 e-mail reply from a Loren Cochran, a FOIA specialist with the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, regarding the FAA FOIA denial reads as follows:

"It is unusual and unlawful for them to not cite an exemption. “[W]e are not in a position to release the said records at this time,” certainly isn’t an exemption any where in the Freedom of Information Act, and I can’t think of any case law that supports that answer either."

The author, Aidan Monaghan, notes that:

It is possible that the FBI seized FAA 9/11 aircraft records containing component serial number data for aircraft identification purposes and that the FAA no longer possesses them.

He then goes on to cite many of the larger NTSB investigations, all showing serial numbers.

ATS member Reheat continually challenged us to provide any document showing that the NTSB requires this as part of their procedures. P4T Administrator dMole addressed this issue here, citing the NTSB's Major Investigations Manual:

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Now, reading Major Investigations Manual Appendix, page H-36
QUOTE (NTSB)
The maintenance group report should cover at a minimum:
- Type of maintenance program
- List of documents reviewed
- Historical data on aircraft and engines
- Serial numbers
a. Times
b. Times since last major inspections
c. Times since last line checks

And as if that wasn't already enough, dMole goes on in that same post to dispel any notion that aircraft part serial numbers would not have likely been available, citing FAR code itself:

Now, before the spinmeisters attempt to obfuscate that aircraft don't have serialized parts, let's check the FAR code:

ecfr.gpoaccess.gov...&idno=14

"Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 45—IDENTIFICATION AND REGISTRATION MARKING
Subpart B—Identification of Aircraft and Related Products

§ 45.11 General.

(a) Aircraft and aircraft engines. Aircraft covered under §21.182 of this chapter must be identified, and each person who manufacturers an aircraft engine under a type or production certificate shall identify that engine, by means of a fireproof plate that has the information specified in §45.13 of this part marked on it by etching, stamping, engraving, or other approved method of fireproof marking. The identification plate for aircraft must be secured in such a manner that it will not likely be defaced or removed during normal service, or lost or destroyed in an accident.

§ 45.14 Identification of critical components.

Each person who produces a part for which a replacement time, inspection interval, or related procedure is specified in the Airworthiness Limitations section of a manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness shall permanently and legibly mark that component with a part number (or equivalent) and a serial number (or equivalent).

[Amdt. 45–16, 51 FR 40703, Nov. 7, 1986]

§ 45.16 Marking of life-limited parts.

When requested by a person required to comply with §43.10 of this chapter, the holder of a type certificate or design approval for a life-limited part must provide marking instructions, or must state that the part cannot be practicably marked without compromising its integrity. Compliance with this paragraph may be made by providing marking instructions in readily available documents, such as the maintenance manual or the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness.

[Doc. No. FAA–200–8017, 67 FR 2110, Jan. 15, 2002]"

So in summary:

1) The FBI withheld the serial numbers from the planes to the NTSB

2) Because of this, we cannot be sure that any subsequent analysis of the FDR data indeed corresponded to the actual planes in question

3) Other research, such as that from Craig Ranke and the Northside Flight Path, indicates that the FDR data may have indeed been tampered with or false

4) There is no conclusive evidence to show that the FDRs analyzed by the NTSB were that of the 9/11 alleged planes

5) The FOIA request to obtain these serial numbers, and thus ultimate verification of the plane's identities was summarily dismissed without reason or legal precedent

6) Given the digital nature of these FDR's there would have been opportunity for the data to be falsified, and my hunch is that this was done by the FBI. I can provide more information on that if necessary.

Please visit the links provided for more information. I fully support the tremendous work that P4T has been doing to help uncover the official lies of 9/11.

This information only serves to cast further suspicion on elements of the US government that they are hiding critical information necessary to support the official story, and thus more reason that the official story cannot be believed! Like we don't have enough of this suspicion already!

[edit on Thu May 28th 2009 by TrueAmerican]

S&F for you, my friend. Great post.

Amazing information. But unfortunately this will be added to the extremely long list of 'coincidences' that surround that day and under rug swept.

Add it to the pile. Nothing will come of this in the same manner that nothing has ever come of all the other startling inconsistencies in the official story that people have noticed since 9/11. As I've mentioned before, the "truthers" just want the truth. So far they've been given everything but the truth.

Remember, "NO, IT ISN'T!!!!!" - the sole argument of TPTB.

S&F for you from another P4T member!!!!!!

It is common practice for various 3 letter agencies to make information disappear, as if it does not exist, it cannot be either supported nor refuted...

The more this information is publicized, the more people we will have demanding answers......

reply to post by Badgered1


Well thanks.

So maybe we should have some more speculation on why they don't want to identify the planes? Maybe because they were switched with military planes? Maybe because the real planes actually landed? I dunno man, it is all very strange- but par for the course considering all the other bad stuff the CIA has been known for.

reply to post by habu71


Thanks much.

Maybe because there were no planes? lol, uh oh, I know that is taboo...But man, there's gotta be some reason these people don't want those planes identified... I'd like to hear your comments on that...

Ok well so seriously, what are the possibilities why they don't want the planes identified?

1) The aircraft were switched with military drones-
This could have happened at the airports. But more likely they were switched mid air, by the new planes flying real close to the original flights so as to fool the radar signatures, which would appear as a single blip on the FAA screens.

If identified by FDR serial number, ?

2) The original aircraft were outfitted with remote control capability-
And then hijacked by a remote control pilot mid air. One theory has the hijackers being hijacked themselves. They could have been enticed by the CIA to pose as hijackers, with the up front plan to free them after landing- when really they intended to do exactly what happened.

If identified by FDR serial number, the maintenance records would potentially show these modifications.

3) The FDR's supplied to the NTSB by the FBI were not the FDRs from the original planes-
This is perhaps the simplest explanation.

If identified by FDR serial number, had the originals been supplied, the resulting data would likely have given away crucial information that could have shown takeover by remote control, or other information they could not divulge that would no doubt lead investigators down the correct path.

4) The guys that did September Clues were right and there were no planes-
Obviously in this case-

If identified by FDR serial number, the original FDR's would show that the real planes landed somewhere, or did not fly at all that day.

Any other thoughts?

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Although I don't like to speculate, my guess is that the "identified" aircraft said to have gone into the towers and Shanksville were diverted and were part of an extremely elaborate plan. What was the plan covering? We may never know.......The more I find out, the greater the scope of the plan becomes obvious

The skeptics always bring up "how can you keep the crews and passengers of the original flights quiet"? When presented with various national security letters that threaten total property confiscation, life imprisonment, and espionage charges, I have seen totally innocent people cave. In fact, I have probably seen a total of 20-30 faced with such threats, NONE have "declined" to sign....

P4T and ATS and their members are the only way we will "accidentally" discover additional evidence...

reply to post by habu71


Yup. It could be very possible those people are all alive somewhere, leading the good life, paid off, and under mortal threat just to live the rest of their lives in secrecy. In a related note, one has to wonder where those 3 billion "missing" dollars went.

Where would you guess they would have been sent? Pakistan? Israel? Dubai? UAE? Saudi? Jamaica? Here? Probably different places, way out of the way, with covert sanctioning from various foreign governments.

And I agree, the plan is extremely complicated, and extremely ambitious. Too ambitious with too many holes. Certainly the most orchestrated, devious plan ever conceived by humanity against humanity in the history of the world.

But hey, thanks for the speculation. At this point I am ready to hear all of it, cause speculation is in order as more facts come out.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


The implications of the cover-up is that someone very high up did these deeds. If so, those individuals had no issues murdering thousands that day when the towers came down, I don't believe if the planes where "swapped" out and the real flights landed, that those crews and passengers are still alive. That leaves too many people for a leak to happen, much easier to dispose of them that day.

BTW, thanks for this thread (S&F), it is research like this and others based on real data that will eventually bring the whole stinking mess to light.

[edit on 28-5-2009 by Finalized]

[edit on 28-5-2009 by Finalized]

reply to post by Finalized


Well, you certainly have a good point. If they murdered all those people, what's a few hundred more?

But on the other hand, would there be any incentive to keep them alive, for instance that it could give them additional scapegoats if the SHTF?

And thanks for S&F. But I cannot take any credit whatsoever for this. It is the people at P4T, AE911T, CIT, and many others that are the true heroes. They should all get Pulitzer prizes imo, just for sheer effort alone, if nothing else. No no, make that Congressional Medals of Honor.

Until I began studying beyond the sensationalist books, I did not even speculate......P4T, especially Rob, opened my eyes. Now, understand, these eyes have seen sh**t that no human and no American should see or know, so I am not exactly naive....(understatement)

That being said, I do know (from experience) that once the plans and orders are developed black and by TPTB, rarely can they be stopped or discovered. Most of the time, it is a NCP (non connected person) that happens upon a shred that provides the connection.

Do not stop looking, it might imperil your life or the life of your loved ones, but, the Republic is at stake.....

reply to post by Finalized


I tend to agree......SOP does not allow that many witnesses and potential "leaks" to be allowed to exist.....However, remember that the DOJ WITSEC program is quite effective at hiding people, the "other agencies" are even better....

reply to post by habu71






Man, I tell you what...Once in a while someone comes along around here that blows my mind. I can only imagine what you have done, where you have been, and the things you have witnessed. I believe you.

This country really IS run by some very evil people, isn't it habu... I have been fortunate I guess to be as "non-connected" as one can be- always staying away from politics and anything to do with government- until I got into researching 9/11 about 5 years ago. But your words carry the weight of the gold stolen from underneath the towers to me. How I wish you could just let it all out and spill the beans- but certainly not at your own peril.

Do you really believe this is dangerous, to dig too deep? Should I start watching my back and warn my family? Are we really getting closer to the truth with all this?

What are your ideas on why they did not provide the serial numbers? Anything other than what I already mentioned above, or do those ideas about cover the possibilities?

Sorry for all the questions, but you have really intrigued me. Thanks.

I cannot believe that the voice or FDR's were not recovered for all four flights.

Obviously, they do not want anyone to hear what happened during the last half hours of all the flights.(I know the relatives have heard f93s but I find this suspicious also, I believe they do not want the recording to be studied at all. They claim "privacy rights" but thats nonsense. What they really are saying is no one will study them.)

F77 is the most intriguing, we're supposed to believe that the FDR data survived but not the Voice data. What makes more sense is that there is things on that recording that don't exactly line up with the OS. Things they don't want to have to explain. Things that are most likely considered a national security threat.

Thanks for the heads up on the story, I have to say though it is not surprising. What reason could there actually be for not making public the serial numbers.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Thanks, I also wish my mind could simply be put on a Blu Ray disc for everyone to see. Of course, then some would call the recording fake and call them lies unless I could prove them true....

Regarding digging too deep.....I'll put it this way....It is my belief that the purposes (plural), the plans, the results go far beyond the high levels of the USG. Again, my belief is that it took massive levels of international cooperation and collusion that reached to the highest levels of many governments. That being said, simply attempting to find the truth is not, in itself, dangerous. The problem with a civilian investigating things that intelligence agencies and governments want hidden is that the civilian holds none of the cards. The only way one knows they are approaching the truth is when personal assets begin being seized, people get arrested and visits from the alphabet agencies begin. Research what happened when James Sanders got close to the truth behind the shoot down of TWA 800.

Honestly, I do not believe we will ever know the truth. In the way that evidence, such as missing FDR serial numbers, has been preemptively made to disappear tells me that this has been done with the maximum "tradecraft" available. We will find the holes, missing data, and questionable items, but these will be the things we are designed to find. In this type of massive plan, using this type of tradecraft, the next step will be for someone to find "major evidence" of something that will divert the attention away from the truth.

You might have read them, but two books are really good. "Touching History" by Capt Lynn Spencer (read first) and "The Big Wedding" by Sander Hicks. When you read the Hicks book, you might have a hard time believing it, but ....believe it. Another good one for general background is "Barry and the Boys" by Daniel Hopsicker....believe it too, Porter Goss lives just down the road from me.....

I think you have it regarding the SN's, no SN's makes it impossible to prove that the aircraft shown to be assigned to those flights on that day weren't....

Capt R

Originally posted by habu71
S&F for you from another P4T member!!!!!!

Whatever credibility you claim just went down the toilet.

Tell us....do you agree with Cap't Bob and April Gallop that the Pentagon's self-defense missiles and defenses should have opened up to shoot down AA77?

reply to post by trebor451


Obviously, you have a problem with the P4T organization.....If you would look through the aviation and military experience and qualifications of most members, you would find people with thousands of hours in military aviation and airline flying. I, personally have over 30,000 hours in military and airline heavy aircraft, including the ones involved in 9-11-01, as well as airline accident investigation experience. The analysis done by P4T is based upon actual and real world observation, not speculation. I base my opinions on what I KNOW to be standard operating procedure in air traffic control, airline flying, accident investigation AND the operations of the USG.

I have not put forth an opinion about why or how much the Pentagon air defense system did or did not react, because I do not know enough personally about the system.

Originally posted by trebor451

Originally posted by habu71
S&F for you from another P4T member!!!!!!

Whatever credibility you claim just went down the toilet.

Well gag me with a spoon.

What's wrong with P4T? I am a member there as well, even though I just read and do not post (except once), and this thread is based upon information published there. If it was bogus I am sure that Rob Balsamo or any of the other fine admins there would have trashed it long ago. So you might as well say any of us and this thread's credibility just went down the toilet. You are entitled to your opinion, but no thanks for sharing it, especially without stating a reason why you believe that.

reply to post by TrueAmerican

How much proof is there that any of the four doomed Boeings actually took off that day?

How many names on the passenger manifests have been proved to be real people?

I saw a video of a reporter at an airport he was told one of the crashed planes would have arrived at. He was going to show the friends and relatives who had been waiting for this plane. But there were none.


Cue post from devastated patriot whose favourite auntie died that day . . .

reply to post by Kailassa


1) Very little if any
2) Very few if any

And yeah I think I know the video you are talking about. But you are speaking in riddles a bit...Maybe you can be a little more clear?