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Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

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posted on May, 28 2009 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by Goathief
I see so much anger and closed-mindedness it's frightening, criticism of the military is one of the ultimate sins for many. In fact, if you haven't served yourself then it is usually claimed you have no grounds to complain (due to a lack of understanding) and/or are somehow a lesser citizen.


And what's your point?

People can critize the military all they want, but it comes down to the fact that if you didn't serve, you probably don't have a freakin' clue about what you're talking about. And having a friend/relative, etc in the service doesn't really matter. Neither does reading about it in books.

If you weren't in the service, you wouldn't understand.


Originally posted by Goathief
How can you educate a person who virtually condones child rape via a lack of inaction or belief? All the evidence is there for the public bar the photographs themselves, and even if they were released would the aforementioned people believe then or would the next course of action be rationalisation (ie; we needed the information otherwise more innocent citizens of my home country would have been murdered)?


If you actually asked anyone in the military about this, they'd say that the individuals should be tried, and if found guilty, be executed in the most horrible manner.

And why do you need to see the pictures? It's not going to change the facts. I think most of the people that want to see them are just looking for a cheap thrill.

Just saying.




posted on May, 28 2009 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65
If you weren't in the service, you wouldn't understand.


And if you were or are in the service, you should understand the reason it even exists, and who funds it. Yup, the people who don't have a freakin clue. We, the ones who work and pay taxes, who pay for your superior tech equipment and the ones you are supposed to protect the rights of. Maybe if soldiers stopped acting as a "collective" that must rush to the defense of any perceived criticism, and understood they wouldn't even BE soldiers if it weren't for the civilians they are supposed to protect from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic (that means corrupt politicans and bankers), there wouldn't be this us vs. them mentality.

edit to add: OUR country is being invaded right now, by foreign hordes and terrorist groups/cartels who behead innocent people the SAME as the islamic fundies, only a hundred or so miles south of where i'm sitting right now...WHERE is our military?? fighting for Exxon, in a hell hole FAR from the citizens they are sworn to protect? Yet WE don't have a freakin clue? When WE, non-military folks who don't have a clue, try and patrol OUR borders while the military is fighting for big businesses, we become criminals because we are pissing off the big companies who hire illegals, and the government lap dogs who do their bidding....


[edit on 28-5-2009 by 27jd]



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 06:54 PM
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The funny thing to me is when these people claim "our forefathers" were right wing extremists (yeah that's why they created the most liberal and radical nation in history) and that this nation was meant to be a religious or christian nation (which is why it's so clear that religion is supposed to stay separate and the hell away from government) I'd like to drop history books on these people from B-52s but I doubt many of them could read and the rest that could would label it as some kind of liberal commie terrorist agenda. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry, James Madison, and a host others. However, whenever you go into the actual merits of what they're debating somehow they're already off on another topic or another fear campaign about how whatever the buzz word of the weak we're labeling our unknown fears is out to subvert and destroy us (anarchist, communist, liberal, conservative, terrorist, etc) Our forefathers were literally the most educated men in history (okay a little bit of nationalism has to come out now and again) and put together the greatest concept and ideology for the governing of men in history. The words that came from Thomas Jefferson in 1776 in the Declaration of Independence continues to change the world and be on the lips of every just revolution and every oppressed man. We've gone from the nobility, strength, convictions and ideals that made us great to what we are now and what's represented in this thread.

But it's all okay. We're raping kids, murdering thousands, destroying any kind of international credibility, and demolishing ourselves from the inside for the flag, mom, and apple pie. I really have no idea where this country is going anymore and most days I'm ashamed to be an American.


[edit on 28-5-2009 by CuriousSkeptic]



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd

And if you were or are in the service, you should understand the reason it even exists, and who funds it. Yup, the people who don't have a freakin clue. We, the ones who work and pay taxes, who pay for your superior tech equipment and the ones you are supposed to protect the rights of.


Psst, guess what? The troops pay taxes, too!! Which is weird, because that means I'm paying myself.



Originally posted by 27jd
Maybe if soldiers stopped acting as a "collective" that must rush to the defense of any perceived criticism, and understood they wouldn't even BE soldiers if it weren't for the civilians they are supposed to protect from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic (that means corrupt politicans and bankers), there wouldn't be this us vs. them mentality.


Well, unlike civilians, we are taught about teamwork and unit pride. That's why troops defend each other when it comes to criticism. We don't throw each other under the bus, unless it's really called for (like Murtha, that lame-ass ex-Marine).



Originally posted by 27jd
edit to add: OUR country is being invaded right now, by foreign hordes and terrorist groups/cartels who behead innocent people the SAME as the islamic fundies, only a hundred or so miles south of where i'm sitting right now...WHERE is our military?? fighting for Exxon, in a hell hole FAR from the citizens they are sworn to protect? Yet WE don't have a freakin clue? When WE, non-military folks who don't have a clue, try and patrol OUR borders while the military is fighting for big businesses, we become criminals because we are pissing off the big companies who hire illegals, and the government lap dogs who do their bidding....


Geez, that "fighting for Exxon" tirade is getting old.

You do know that 99% of the military would enjoy sealing the borders, don't you? See, this is what I was talking about. Unless you are in the service, you really don't know the mindset.

And anyway, the military isn't a police force. And that seems to be a job up their alley; patrolling the border.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65
Psst, guess what? The troops pay taxes, too!! Which is weird, because that means I'm paying myself.


Ah, well then I guess you don't need us, huh? Is everybody in your family, all your friends, etc. in the military? If not, better let them know how much better you are than them, huh?



Well, unlike civilians, we are taught about teamwork and unit pride. That's why troops defend each other when it comes to criticism. We don't throw each other under the bus, unless it's really called for (like Murtha, that lame-ass ex-Marine).


Teamwork, right. Unless of course they are considered "lame-ass" soldiers, I guess that is subjective, or do they teach you what makes somebody a lame-ass? My guess is it's anybody who questions the decisions of our leaders...



Geez, that "fighting for Exxon" tirade is getting old.


Truth hurts.



You do know that 99% of the military would enjoy sealing the borders, don't you? See, this is what I was talking about. Unless you are in the service, you really don't know the mindset.


That's good. Probably because they know it should be done, but their corporate masters won't allow it.



And anyway, the military isn't a police force. And that seems to be a job up their alley; patrolling the border.


No no no. The police are tasked with enforcing laws IN the USA, not keeping foreign hordes from invading, that would be the military.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


Rape? They are honestly going to try and defend rape and child abuse? If they get away with this one then something is very wrong in the USA.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by UrsusMajor
When he returns to the country he fought for, he is treated like garbage.

I can empathize with you here
You go fight for the american govt. then when you come back as a vet you either end up being homeless or the DHS calls you a potential terroist.
Or you end up having suicidal thoughts and all you get is 1800 number.

It's not fair I agree.
The best you can do is spread the word.
There are still more young recruits that can hear your story before it's too late.


I'd rather they heard my story then yours.

They have enough hate in their life already.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


I fully agree that both Party's are corrupt.
I don't think constantly bringing up a bad situation that has already been through the courts helps anything. These photo's the ACLU are after also pertain to yet to happen trials. The ACLU represents the lowest of the low in the Legal Community. The scum of the Earth IMO. Just a mm higher up the ladder above Terrorists, Nazi's, the KKK and the Dictators of the World.

What concerns me is constantly dredging this up endangers the Troops. They are volunteers who willingly risk their very lives to protect us. It does not matter if the Government is wrong. We owe them even if the war is wrong.

The ACLU is behind this. There is not a doubt in my mind that they get their marching orders from the DNC and this is a smokescreen to offset the negative reactions to the destruction of our system by people who don't even have the right to do the things they are doing right now.

If it was the Republicans doing wrong, I'd point that out just as quickly. My criticism of the DNC does not mean I support the Republicans. I'm sick of them all.

I could have been more diplomatic however. I'm not upset at you about it. I should not shoot the messenger when it's the ACLU, DNC and Troop hating Media I'm really mad at. Sorry for that.

I'll save what I'm pissed at the RNC about for another thread



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by UrsusMajor
 


Now that you got that out of the way, go ahead and read the rest of the thread and just maybe you'll see there is no soldier blaming or disrespect going on here. I have YET to see anybody treating soldiers poorly, besides the very government you fight for, as modern said...


Really? Here's what modern said in the follow up to the opening post:

Are there still people here on ATS that will say that they support the troops?

There are plenty more wide generalizations available as well. If you would like me to go back and cut and paste it for you, I will, but I hate spoon feeding, especially when it's a waste of time. The OP has an agenda beyond this event and I have every right to react as I please. If the mods don't like it, I am sure I will hear about it.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUSNone of it makes any sense.

The pictures that havn't been released are far worse than rape. The CID report describes things that remind me of the film Hostel, including weird neo nazi crap.

It personally makes me absolutely disgusted. Part of it feels demonic and clearly evil.

There are unimaginable horrors going on in dark places and it is clearly insane.


I have to totally agree with you. There's something very sinister in all this, almost like some sort of ritual occult indoctrination.

This issue is important and should not be allowed to slip from common consciousness despite everything else that's going on. It's all linked after all.

S&F



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
Ah, well then I guess you don't need us, huh? Is everybody in your family, all your friends, etc. in the military? If not, better let them know how much better you are than them, huh?


Why, yes, they all are. And the ones that aren't know I'm better than they are.


Originally posted by 27jd
Teamwork, right. Unless of course they are considered "lame-ass" soldiers, I guess that is subjective, or do they teach you what makes somebody a lame-ass? My guess is it's anybody who questions the decisions of our leaders...


Murtha is a lame ass ex Marine, not an ex Soldier. And yes, they teach us what makes a troop a lame ass. It's beat into us by Senior NCOs. It's called, "policing your own". And if you remember correctly, Murtha was calling Marines "murderers" and worse, and the Marines were found to be not guilty. Last I heard, one of them were suing him for slander (or is it libel?).



Originally posted by 27jd
Truth hurts.


Now there's a stinging come-back!


Nah, it doesn't hurt when it's not true. If it were, I'd have free gas for life. And a dead otter.



Originally posted by 27jd
No no no. The police are tasked with enforcing laws IN the USA, not keeping foreign hordes from invading, that would be the military.


Immigration is a law. The police are in charge of that, or the Border patrol.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:49 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


The photo's are from the proseqution of the soldiers who are now serving time in jail. Maybe we should show the Berg video and start moral equivilance? Head sawed off? so in response to your statement...YES I SUPPORT THE TROOPS! I hope all the terrorists get the hard end of the bullet and peaceable people can live without the threat of bomb wearing lunatics walking around.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


Thanks for what you and your family do for us all. This very site would not be here if not for the freedoms you fight for.

Ditto to all you other comments.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia



Are there still people here on ATS that will say that they support the troops?

Is this what should really be the focus on memorial day?

Or do you all want your illusion of pride to remain?

Yes there are good troops as well, but they are still under a corrupt agenda nonetheless.


I would hardly condemn every troop, who is putting his/her life on the line for their country, just because a few of them are sick sick freaks that deserve raped and hung themselves.
There are rapists and murderers in society, and thousands of pedophiles that rape children...would we discount all Americans as evil? Corruption and evil knows no bounds unfortunately, and I hope all involved are punished harshly.

[edit on 5/28/2009 by AnonymousMoose]



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by CuriousSkeptic
 


I have to agree wholeheartedly with your post and I think it demonstrates well why so many of us Europeans and other non US nationalities are so pissed at the US of A.

As an independent nation you had the best of all possible starts. 'We' elsewhere have had hundreds even thousands of years of history of the abuse of man by man. All your original statesman were fully aware of this and so worked to give you the best possible of all starts and look what you've done with it. I'm angry with the US for allowing their country and their constitution and bill of rights to be so thoroughly usurped that a cabal of evil greedy families controls everything. We all hoped America would be better, do better, not become the country that has invaded and intervened in other countries business over 130 times. How many times has the US been invaded since 1776?

Our hopes were with you, now your fears are ours. The world has become a much darker place after the actions of the USA in the 20th century.

I apologise in advance if this offends anyone, but i do believe these are fair comments. Oh and by the way I do support the troops they are only puppets, it's the regime that's evil. As someone said earlier in the thread how different would the world be if somehow we as a species could learn to say "No I will not kill, nor invade, nor engage in war." That's all it would take and there'd never be another war. This planet has resources aplenty. I read somewhere (I'll try and find it) that Earth could support 40 billion people if survival resources were evenly distributed, still leaving plenty of room for commerce, although a monetary system will always hinder a civilisations progress.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 08:11 PM
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posted on May, 28 2009 @ 08:15 PM
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It's war ok?

Armys have been reported raping, mutilating, BTK (Everywhere), and cannibalizing babies (During WWII when the Japanese were in China). It's war, the sad reality of elites throwing the lower classes into conflict.

It's almost a "natural" thing. Soldiers and prisoners have been reported to have more people with XYY chromosomes than in the average people percentage wise.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 08:31 PM
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Here is my complaint about this thread:

Stereotyping is bad...on any level, regardless who is doing it. ATSer should know this as well as anyone.

First, out of the entire US military, there are plenty of sh*theads. Just the way it is, and it will always be that way. Now the issue here is that those sh*theads make up only a small portion of the total US military. Therefore it is a gross stereotype for anyone to make the assumption that every member of the military is a rapist/human rights abuser.

Let's draw a comparison, I am relatively sure that atleast one or two of our fellow AST members has a few screws loose. Does that then mean that the rest of us also have some screws loose? Of course not.

Further more, in my opinion, there are certain behaviors that come out in war. These behaviors are not at all justifiable however, they have existed on all sides of every major war in history. Do you not think that the "Great" Pioneers of America didn't beat, rape, and abuse my American Indian forefathers? Do you think that the British didn't beat, rape and abuse some of the families of the American Revolutionaries? Do you think the hero's of WWII didn't abuse some Nazi women and Nazi soldiers? Do you think that the members of radical "terrorist" groups would be morally resolved not to beat, rape, and abuse your children or you?

Now all of that to say, these actions are not acceptable and are not in any way justified but they are often realities of conflict. The thing we should be more concerned about is the fact that these soldiers that are involved will eventually merge back into society and may end up as your next door neighbor, friend, or BBQ buddy.

A person who has committed these atrocities should be executed on the spot. However, if that were allowed, American people would protest and raise hell. That is the only solution and only deterrent to this problem. And even then it is only marginally effective.

My final comment about this:
It's ridiculous that so many Americans expect our soldiers to have such a high pedigree of morals and such. But where are we seeing those characteristics put forth in our society? The fact is that "freedom" is actually, in itself, the degradation of morals. Think about all the things that have become acceptable values in the past 30 years. Where is the line now of right and wrong? The fact is that the American moral fabric is no longer being woven. And yet, we expect our military men to exhibit the very same black and white values that have been blurred by the rest of our society. Total BS. So honestly, IMHO, the problem is stemmed directly from our "freedom and democracy". In the words of Plato:

"He lives from day to day indulging the appetite of the hour, and sometimes he is lapped in drink and strains of the flute; then he becomes a water-drinker, and tries to get thin; then he takes a turn at gymnastics; sometimes idling and neglecting everything, then once more living the life of a philosopher; often he is busy with politics, and starts to his feet and says and does whatever comes into his head; and, if he is emulous of any one who is a warrior, off he is in that direction, or of men of business, once more in that. His life has neither law nor order; and this distracted existence he terms joy and bliss and freedom; and so he goes on"



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by AnonymousMoose
I would hardly condemn every troop, who is putting his/her life on the line for their country, just because a few of them are sick sick freaks that deserve raped and hung themselves.

Firstly I am all for national defense, those who read my posts know this
When people say support the troops, in debates with me, is usually in the context of foreign occupation.

Again I am all for a national defense.
It is a MUST!

But foreign occupation is something else, it's not defense it's in fact pre-emptive offense. I cannot understand people saying support the troops in an undeclared and immoral war, especially one that is making America both bankrupt and more dangerous.

This also plays a role to me making that statement.

And now this!
Not many troops were part of this shameful act that has been going on for how many years again? They know this is happening, people who say support foreign occupation(troops abroad) still say it despite innocent troops staying under this corrupt umbrella. They are innocent, but they still stay active.

What if a killer was an employee of a mob gang, if he knew of the horrible things the mob gang did shouldn't he split?

Still many people have a thinking like: "I don't agree with the war whatsover but I still support those prolonging the war(soldiers)" makes no sense to me. These are people stuck in a paradox.


Originally posted by AnonymousMoose
There are rapists and murderers in society, and thousands of pedophiles that rape children...would we discount all Americans as evil? Corruption and evil knows no bounds unfortunately, and I hope all involved are punished harshly.


Inapliquable analogy.

Americans as a people aren't invading homes.

What's a soldiers duty in iraq when it comes to insurgents? Tell me soldiers? What role must he play what is protocol?

What's an insurgent? A insurgent is someone living in texas and if an intruder enters his house he gets his shotgun and shoots them.
Thats what an insurgent is.

So what's protocol for an american soldier in Iraq when meeting with a group of insurgents?

Please tell me!

It's funny, many same people here were in another thread about a rancher who pulled a shotgun at an immigrant, people praised that rancher.
Remember that thread? He is illegally in your country.

But when it comes to insurgents? What's protocol soldiers?
That rancher was an insurgent too wasn't he?



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65
Why, yes, they all are. And the ones that aren't know I'm better than they are.






Now there's a stinging come-back!


Nah, it doesn't hurt when it's not true. If it were, I'd have free gas for life. And a dead otter.


Wasn't meant as a come back, as for the free gas, of course you won't get that. They aren't interested in sharing with you, just forcing you to secure their interests. Once they're done with you they will dump you and forget you so fast your head will spin.



Immigration is a law. The police are in charge of that, or the Border patrol.


The police have no jurisdiction over foreign nationals, they are powerless to do anything. See, things are backwards right now, fighting insurgencies and terrorist groups are for police, and maybe some special forces units. The military SHOULD be protecting our borders from invasion, that's not a cops job.




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