Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by jd140

 

I'm with you 100% on that one, Jesse Ventura and the Nug'. We gotta figure out a way to convince them to run...

Will never happen. The left would destroy Uncle Teddy and the Right would destroy The Body.

reply to post by jd140


That's why we first have to tell the left AND the right, to go F' themselves if we EVER want this country to be what it could be. We are all individuals, we have to stop letting them corral us into seperate corners using hot button BS to create this sense of division that is a plague in this country. We should all embrace the idea of balance, like you said.

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by jd140

 

That's why we first have to tell the left AND the right, to go F' themselves if we EVER want this country to be what it could be. We are all individuals, we have to stop letting them corral us into seperate corners using hot button BS to create this sense of division that is a plague in this country. We should all embrace the idea of balance, like you said.

Never happen.

There will always be a left and a right. Maybe not as we have it know, but in some form or another it will be there. It might not happen over night, but the parties that emerge would just turn into what we have now.

All throughout history governments have risen and fallen with new ones taking their place only to fall once again. Our government will fall one day to another form of government, but that one will too fall. They usually fall due to corruption.

So we just ride it out. The new one will form and it will be nice for a while, but that one will eventually become corrupt.

reply to post by jd140


Jeez, your optimism is overwhelming, lol.

Right and left is an illusion that they play against us, do you know anybody who leans one way on every issue? I don't. I know Ventura and Nugent will never be a real ticket, my point in bringing Jesse Ventura up is to show that just because somebody is against our corrupt leaders' foreign policy, doesn't automatically mean they are against or hate the troops.

reply to post by 27jd



Yeah I understood why you brought it up.

As far as my optimism. I just know my history of governments. No government lasts forever. They all live on borrowed time. Thats why I don't get why some call for over throwing our government. I don't do it because its inevitably going to happen.

reply to post by jd140


You're right. I believe they usually fall because the people they exploit and suppress bring them down, once they've had enough. Like the French Revolution. Of course these times are different, and I believe we need to find other ways beside violence to make it happen, but part of me sure would love to see some banker heads rolling off the guillotine...

[edit on 29-5-2009 by 27jd]

When it comes to these photos this is old news, it was widely reported by military officials back in 2004, the "military officials" who were quoted in MSM news reports spoke candidly on what they had seen in the photos, including the rape of a woman, and an Iraqi boy being raped. Those photos were never made public but no less damning were the verbal depictions of what had been seen by those officials. The other photos known as the infamous prisoner abuse photos were release without the rape images.

So why now is this being brought up again?

Do we need to see these pictures to prove that which had already been reported long ago?

Let me help you understand what is really going on here.

The Obama administration is trying to push this to the surface despite the harm it will do. There can be no other reason for this.

This was a way to dig up bones and was a pathetic attempt to throw dirt on the previous administration. The very fact that this administration are seeking to politicize this and other war related issues is completely disgusting, and should display to anyone with a minimum of national pride and patriotism that he and his administration will stop at nothing to score a political point or two.


I think it is about time for our president to go on another world tour and apologize to the world for the transgressions and injustices committed by all Americans.

The actions of a few are the fault of an entire nation, if you are an American you are guilty!

Wake up!

Take the blinders off for a while.

From another post of mine in another thread...

I remember hearing about these allegations in 2004, it was reported by only one MSM news source... After some googling I found the original story here.. (2004)

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Apparently that original report has been edited... This was removed:

Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.

You can find the above quote here:

www.democraticunderground.com...

And other sources quoting that same (unedited) MSNBC report all over the net, all posted in 2004.

Look around and you can find it yourself.

Are you still missing the plot here?

This is not old news, do you really think these abuses have stopped? People should wake up to what the military is and its purpose for existing regardless of where it originates. There are no wars in defence, only offence. Most soldiers are fully capable of carrying out these crimes. The process of desensitisation starts as soon as you get off the bus for your basic training. Sexual assault? I've witnessed it being carried out by soldiers against their own men and women and it has made the press on occasion, both in the UK and the US. The only thing you have to do to encourage soldiers to brutalise a perceived enemy is to dehumanise said enemy and Im sure you'll all agree the Muslim world has received more than its fair share of negative propaganda. Against American foreign policy? You bet I am, regardless of the excuses the Coalition of the Willing has acted illegally under International Law and the Geneva Conventions (two things hardly mentioned in the press these days). Im afraid shifting blame on to the leaders is a cop out, or are you willing to accept Democracy is a lie there by acknowledging the excuse of 'spreading Democracy' is also a lie? What worries me is not so much what has come out but what remains hidden, from experiance I know this is only the tip of the iceberg and while the majority of the public continues to wave the flag and support the troops then it will only get worse and prolonged. Go back and read my previous post, please pass comment. I have told you the truth why does nobody want to debate it?

reply to post by UrsusMajor


See this is EXACTLY why I said that you wouldn't reply with anything of substance

You Fail!

Please post something of substance and I will reply.
Make a thread if you wish and I will be a participant for an entire YEAR debating.

I knew you had nothing of substance and so did you

Originally posted by SOXMIS
This is not old news, do you really think these abuses have stopped? People should wake up to what the military is and its purpose for existing regardless of where it originates. There are no wars in defense, only offence. Most soldiers are fully capable of carrying out these crimes. The process of desensitisation starts as soon as you get off the bus for your basic training. Sexual assault? I've witnessed it being carried out by soldiers against their own men and women and it has made the press on occasion, both in the UK and the US. The only thing you have to do to encourage soldiers to brutalise a perceived enemy is to dehumanize said enemy and Im sure you'll all agree the Muslim world has received more than its fair share of negative propaganda. Against American foreign policy? You bet I am, regardless of the excuses the Coalition of the Willing has acted illegally under International Law and the Geneva Conventions (two things hardly mentioned in the press these days). Im afraid shifting blame on to the leaders is a cop out, or are you willing to accept Democracy is a lie there by acknowledging the excuse of 'spreading Democracy' is also a lie? What worries me is not so much what has come out but what remains hidden, from experiance I know this is only the tip of the iceberg and while the majority of the public continues to wave the flag and support the troops then it will only get worse and prolonged. Go back and read my previous post, please pass comment. I have told you the truth why does nobody want to debate it?

So the true agenda rears its ugly head doesn't it. Lets see ive proved the news is 5 years old originally from 2004 and picked up by the new york times who apparently thought it was new. Showed how most of the instances discussed was from a private contractor after the army investigated. Pointed out the fact that it was army personnel who broke the story.Which explains why theres photos and video because nobody is stupid enough to document there own crimes. And then it comes out suddenly the military does this all the time and were trained in basic training to apparently rape people.And the American people have no morals unlike those Muslims that everybody is just picking on.never mind the fact that most wars currently being carried out are religious wars started by Muslims.
* War in Somalia (2006–present)
* Darfur conflict
* Kashmir conflict
* Iraq War
* War in Afghanistan
* Israeli-Palestinian conflict
* Fatah-Hamas conflict
* Islamic insurgency in the Philippines
* 2007 Ogaden conflict
* South Thailand insurgency
* Waziristan War
* 2007 Lebanon conflict
* Insurgency in Saudi Arabia
* Sa'dah conflict
* Kurdish insurgency in Turkey
* Second Tuareg Rebellion
* War on Terrorism
And this list isnot even complete im sure others can come up with ones i missed.

Now i don't remember anywhere in basic or AIT that we were trained for this maybe some how i got special duty and missed the class. You sir madam whatever are a joke.It all comes down to an agenda disgrace the military tell enough lies someone will believe you huh. Either your just anti war pacifist thinking the world could be a better place or your agenda is far more sinister either way it doesn't really matter.

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by jd140

 

Jeez, your optimism is overwhelming, lol.

Right and left is an illusion that they play against us, do you know anybody who leans one way on every issue? I don't. I know Ventura and Nugent will never be a real ticket, my point in bringing Jesse Ventura up is to show that just because somebody is against our corrupt leaders' foreign policy, doesn't automatically mean they are against or hate the troops.

Thought id add a comment here disagreeing with policies is fine in fact needed so you are right its not anti American. But you also need to make sure you use facts and not rely on information gathered by other individuals who have an agenda!Look any military operations will have people that do stupid things can tell you about a court martial i had to be a witness in.But reality 95% or better the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are trying to help the people there. Now why they are there thats another issue.

[edit on 5/29/09 by dragonridr]

Your just another America hating foreigner taking pot shots from a country that has little to no impact on the world. I respect Canadians, at least the ones I have met in Afghanistan, but your country is very low key. Sit back in your hole behind the veil of the internet and spew your nonsense. You will not discourage us.

Whats done is done. I hope the ones responsible, once found guilty, are put away for life for taking away from the sacrifices my brothers and I have made. That day will come in time. In the meantime, your using past events in a pathetic attempt to deface us is laughable.

I never stated torture was taught in basic training. Please read my posts again, this time carefully. Rather a reactionary reply if I may say so. A soldiers job is to kill, period. If I had a little more time I would point out most of your examples of wars being fought right now have little or nothing to do with Islam, most Kurds are not even Muslims and their so called insurgencies are more about getting back their rightful land which involves more than Turkey. Do some proper research rather than make ignorant assumptions.

Originally posted by SOXMIS
I never stated torture was taught in basic training. Please read my posts again, this time carefully. Rather a reactionary reply if I may say so. A soldiers job is to kill, period. If I had a little more time I would point out most of your examples of wars being fought right now have little or nothing to do with Islam, most Kurds are not even Muslims and their so called insurgencies are more about getting back their rightful land which involves more than Turkey. Do some proper research rather than make ignorant assumptions.

Please dispute any of the conflicts i mentioned your going to deny they are carried out by muslims and its religous conflicts, this should be good.Your agenda has been shown i know whats your trying to do as to the reason why i wont speculate but i think other people here have figured it out. And your right you didnt say anything about terrorism and neither did i but you apparently think in basic they teach courses on rape and abuse.just in case you dont understand what you typed ill go ahead and repost it for you to look at!

People should wake up to what the military is and its purpose for existing regardless of where it originates. There are no wars in defence, only offence. Most soldiers are fully capable of carrying out these crimes

See here is where you accused all soldiers of crimes!

Most soldiers are fully capable of carrying out these crimes. The process of desensitisation starts as soon as you get off the bus for your basic training. Sexual assault? I've witnessed it being carried out by soldiers against their own men and women and it has made the press on occasion, both in the UK and the US.

Here is where you accused them of being trained to rape and commit said crimes so this proves your agenda and as i said earlier you can take your agenda and sell it somewhere else.

Please refer back to my post on page 10 and you'll see soldiers are indeed trained in torture. I'd suggest you get acquainted with someone who has more experiance in these matters. I also believe if you havent commited an offence but are involved with illegal activities you are guilty by association.

Wars are fought for control, control of resources, contol of land, control of people. Look at history chap, religion is just an excuse.

For the record...

I dont hate Amerikans...just the countries foreign policy...

And if i was amerikan(which i am not)..i would still hate amerikas foreign policy...
See??
Not anti amerikan...anti foreign policy....

Oh, also, i hate the Amerikans who believe they are the master race...which clearly, given the mess its in, is impossible.
These people need to understand that this hatred, to be found worldwide, is fuelled not through envy or jealousy, but because amerikans have this superiority complex which the rest of the world sees straight thru...

Maybe a bit more humility is also needed ....


I just cant understand the naivety of some of the above posters.....your policies are rotten to the core...rotten!!

reply to post by SOXMIS


What a great post. And probably from a decorated soldier, no less.
Very interesting statements about this "Joint Forces Interrogation Unit".

Also, The U.S. government used Scientific Remote Viewing to gather intelligence before, during, and shortly after the cold war under a program called "Project Stargate". Millions of taxpayer dollars went to funding special military programs focusing on SRV techniques as valid mechanisms for gathering intelligence. So it wouldn't really be that far fetched to also realize the possibility of a torture "task force" within the military, made up of American and other allied soldiers trained specifically in torture and interrogation. Just my personal opinion. But it makes complete sense.

-ChriS

reply to post by jd140


I don't know about that. I saw Ventura on youtube just owning the right wing idiots on Fox and Friends. One of them got so pissed he just walked off the stage of his own show. LMAO!

It's just amazing to me.. It's O.K. to be all about supporting the troops, but when you even begin to question 9/11 you're instantly labeled an unpatriotic whackjob. Ventura did an amazing job holding his ground on this one. Just thought I would share. It gave me chills.

His views on torture (which he also talks about in this video) are also very applicable to this thread and pretty much mirror the majority of sentiments here on ATS on the subject.

Jesse Ventura On FOX and Friends 5/19/09 pt.1/2


Jesse Ventura On FOX and Friends 5/19/09 pt.2/2


-ChriS

Retired U.S. general said misquoted in rape photo flap

www.reuters.com...

Taguba denies he's seen abuse photos suppressed by Obama

The general told a U.K. paper about images he saw investigating Abu Ghraib -- not photos Obama wants kept secret

By Mark Benjamin

www.salon.com...

Amazing what you can learn when you are able to read and think on your own, instead of being hand-fed and led-about on an emotional leash.

"New" Abu Ghraib photos aren't new

Salon published many of the shocking images now being discussed in news reports three years ago

By Alex Koppelman

www.salon.com...

Any wonder that Gibbs denies what the Telegraph reports? They can't get it right, can they?(see my posts on p.9 of this crap to see what Gibbs said and what I think about people who can't think for themselves)

12 pages of bile, hate and defamation over a disinfo article.

What sheeple populate this place, anyway?

Deny Ignorance!

jw

reply to post by jd140


Haha Iv just my post again and would actually agree that it does sound pretty dumb.

Sorry about that, but I stand by the fact that any prisoner who makes these accusations should never be believed at face value.

If any soldier carries out these acts of course there should be a trial, but a private military trial.

The opponent that is killing our soldiers today cant win the war by force alone, so while we try and win the "hearts and minds" of the locals. The hostile group within the community is using a similar technique against us.

Id bet that half of the anti terror raids in Britain today lead to nothing because they want to get raided, force the officers into a conflict and then claim police brutality and harassment. Which will make other muslims feel like they are being persecuted based on there faith.

The technique they are using tries to make you angry against the government, and they are good at it.

Dont believe some people from miles away who openly says they want to kill you and your kids over someone who joined the military and is willing to fight so you dont have too.