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Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

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posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
reply to post by 27jd
 


You can't defend it, but the impact that those photos would make if they were leaked would be so devastating, it would not only jeopardise the Obama administration, but Americans would have to wake up to the fact that these abuses were done in their name. If you think about it, those photos could set off a chain reaction that could lead to an insurrection against the U.S. government and the status quo.

Fools rush in.


All the more reason the Bush administration should be held legally responsible for its actions.

en.wikipedia.org...

Senator Lindsey Graham (Republican, South Carolina): "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here."[34] "It was pretty disgusting, not what you'd expect from Americans", said Senator Norm Coleman.[35] "I don't know how the hell these people got into our army", said Colorado Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell.[36]


The female commander that "ran" Abu Ghraib later said that probably 90% of the people being held were innocent. Then why would the government have authorized the use of torture here? And even if they didn't, these soldiers wouldn't have just done this without getting orders from someone. We now know from people who were actually there that orders WERE coming down to do this kind of thing.

The creepy part is this.
You don't just get an order one day to molest and rape kids in front of their mothers.. And then carry out that order because you're a "damn good soldier". None of it makes any sense. This was not isolated to the 372nd Security Police Battalion either. "Other" government agencies were directly involved... (the CIA) as well as private contractors responsible for interrogations and torture.. (which killed at least one prisoner we know of). Kind of a slap in the face of the pro-torture crowd since you can't exactly get alot of information from an oozing corpse.


Hersh New Yorker article
A May 2004 article by Seymour M. Hersh in The New Yorker magazine explored the abuses in detail, and used as its source a copy of the Taguba report.

The New Yorker, under the direction of editor David Remnick, posted a report on its website by Hersh, along with a number of graphic and disturbing images of the torture taken by U.S. military prison guards with digital cameras. The article, entitled "Torture at Abu Ghraib", was followed in the next two weeks by two more articles on the same subject, "Chain of Command” and "The Gray Zone,” also by Mr. Hersh.[16]

It was only after CBS learned that The New Yorker planned to publish the pictures in its next issue that they went ahead with their report on April 28."[16]

Seymour Hersh's undercover sources claimed that an interrogation program called "Copper Green" was an official and systemic misuse of coercive methods which, although deemed "successful" during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, would be heavily criticized in intelligence circles as an improper application to the context of fighting citizen-"insurgents" in Iraq. This theory, and the existence of "Copper Green" itself, has been denied by The Pentagon.


More evidence of torture
According to Donald Rumsfeld, many more pictures and videotapes of the abuse at Abu Ghraib exist. Photos and videos were revealed by the Pentagon to lawmakers in a private viewing on 12 May 2004. Lawmakers disagreed over whether the additional photos were worse than those already released, with Senator Ron Wyden saying the new pictures were "significantly worse than anything that I had anticipated [...] Take the worst case and multiply it several times over." while Congresswoman Ellen Tauscher said the pictures were "not dramatically different". It was speculated that they depict dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, women forced to expose their breasts at gunpoint, hooded prisoners being forced to masturbate, and of forced homosexual acts.[17]

A Department of Defense official said that most of the additional photos were pornography involving only US soldiers, and that most did not show abuse of prisoners.[18]


United States soldier Spc. Graner prepares to punch restrained prisonersThe New York Times, in a report on January 12, 2005,[19] reported testimony suggesting that the following events had taken place at Abu Ghraib:

Urinating on detainees
Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
Sodomization of detainees with a baton
Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.
Sergeant Samuel Provance from Alpha Company 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion, in interviews with several news agencies, reported the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators [20], as well as a 16-year-old son of an Iraqi general, who was driven through the cold night air on the open back of a truck after he had been showered and besmeared with mud in order to get his father to talk.[21] He also pointed out several techniques used by interrogators that have been identified as being in violation of the Geneva Convention. He spoke to the media, even against direct orders, about what he knew about at the prison (largely from conversations and interactions with the interrogators). He explained that he did so because there was "definitely a cover-up" underway by the US army. He was administratively flagged and had his top secret clearance suspended in retaliation by the US army. Sgt. Provance made a detailed statement concerning these and numerous other abuses at Abu Ghraib and his treatment by the army.[22]


SPC England and SPC Graner posing behind a pyramid of naked Iraqi prisoners, giving the "thumbs up" signIn her video diary, a prison guard said that prisoners were shot for minor misbehavior, and claimed to have had venomous snakes bite prisoners, sometimes resulting in their deaths. By her own admission, that guard was "in trouble" for having thrown rocks at the detainees.[23] Hashem Muhsen, one of the naked men in the human pyramid photo, said they were also made to crawl around the floor naked and that U.S. soldiers rode them like donkeys. After being released in January 2004, Muhsen became an Iraqi police officer.[24]

It was discovered that one prisoner, Manadel al-Jamadi, died as a result of abuse, a death that was ruled a homicide by the military.[25]

One detainee claimed he was sodomized. The Taguba Report found the claim ("Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick") to be credible.


wow..

-ChriS




posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by benoni
allow the people of the USA to think long and hard about the direction the country is going...


Exactly my hopes. I'm just hoping it doesn't get ugly, just look at this thread and the way public dissent against the actions of some in the military draws them in to defend, and draws pretty clear hatred and venom against fellow Americans. I'm starting to wonder if it's an intentional part of their training, in case they are ever ordered to turn their rifles on us. Anybody active on the "revolution" threads should pay close attention....



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:28 PM
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I have another concern with this issue.

Since the detainee abuses first became an issue, people have been all over this. Has it made any difference whatsoever?

There have been rallies and protest. The outcome?

Folks voted Obama because he would "fix" Gitmo and the other abuses. The outcome?

Now this creates an interesting question. For what sinister means is the government doing this? Are they allowing these things to continue just for #s and giggles? Or is there an underlying purpose behind these abuses?



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:29 PM
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I am a proud Veteran and I just have to throw in my 2 cents on this one. Comparing the actions of a group of soldiers to the ENTIRE lot of soldiers is stereotyping and quite frankly makes me sick.
IF these actions of rape and abuse were "orders" then the blame actually goes to the soldiers that did not refuse an unlawful order. It is the duty of EVERY soldier to deny an unlawful order.

That being said, how are any of us to know that the lives of the mentioned soldiers were not in question if they refused to commit these actions? What would you do if your life was in question for opposing? Would you say shoot me now, or would you follow the order? Honestly, none of us know what we would do in a situation like that.

My point of this post is to attempt to remove this mentality that because one is a U.S. soldier that they are guilty by association. If you do not want to support the troops because of the actions of a few and the puppet masters pulling the strings, well more power to you. Try to look past the uniform and realize that every soldier is a human and not a killing/raping/torturing machine.

Just my 2 cents.



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by RichieScott1
 


On the contrary, I think. This was not just U.S. military security police. This was also private contractors and CIA personnel. Those people could be the ones taking the photos for all we know. And we know that one man was deemed "murdered" by the U.S. military after he was interrogated and tortured by contractors and the CIA. Other people were said to have been killed pretty brutally. Where have those bodies disappeared to? The CIA is involved too here. This isn't just a handful of pissed off military members. Limited use of torture was authorized by the chain of command at Abu Ghraib. But we have no idea what was REALLY authorized because it doesn't have to be in any publicly available government document. We're lucky to have seen the photos at all before they, too, were covered up and/or destroyed.

I used to have a close friend from when I was in the U.S. Air Force who served a tour in Afghanistan. He came with hundreds of photographs, a few dozen of them were photos of prisoners and detainees. A few days later his home (on base, in base housing) is broken into and some of those photos were taken when noone was home. He comes home, finds the place a wreck and photos scattered around. He told me, I have no idea if he told anyone else.

The government knows when they can burn the trail of evidence and when they can't. This is probably not an isolated incident.

-ChriS



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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Im not sure people on the whole are "painting all soldiers with the same brush"...

You vets dont seem to see the wood for the trees....you know??

Be a proud vet...whatever turns you on and makes you proud.....

But dont make ANY excuse for this behaviour, be it by a handful, or a whole @&#$kin' battalion........it is appalling...and anybody with even a smidgeon of decency knows this....

I have also "served" my country in a theatre of war....

...and to the previous Vet from a couple of pages ago....NO...I dont understand...

And to the people who are thanking the vets for their assistance in Amerika "defend" its freedom( bizzarely via Iraq,on the other side of the planet)..... I say HA!!



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by benoni
And to the people who are thanking the vets for their assistance in Amerika "defend" its freedom( bizzarely via Iraq,on the other side of the planet)..... I say HA!!


What is wrong with supporting someone who decided to put their life on the line so other didn't have to? If we didn't step up to the plate, so to speak, then who would? Is there really anything wrong with thanking someone for being brave enough to do such a thing?

So to YOU I say..."HA" for being insensitive to a simple "thank you".



posted on May, 28 2009 @ 11:55 PM
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The concept of freedom is entirely relative...



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Firstly I am all for national defense, those who read my posts know this
When people say support the troops, in debates with me, is usually in the context of foreign occupation...


So we should tell the troops to piss off just because they are following orders in another country? You probably would have thrown rocks and shouted "baby killers" right along hanoi jane fonda in the 70s wouldn't you...

Just because I support the troops doesn't mean I am supporting everything that is going on over there. I support these brave young soldiers who are putting their lives on the line, and doing their duty by obeying orders. If one does something wrong, I will condemn that soldier not the entire military, or everyone involved in the Iraqi occupation. Just because a soldier is occupying an Iraqi village, does that mean you won't support them through a care package or donating to the USO? I hardly thinking supporting individual soldiers is like saying "I support killing Iraqi's"


But when it comes to insurgents? What's protocol soldiers?
That rancher was an insurgent too wasn't he?


"Inapliquable[sic] analogy"



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by benoni
Im not sure people on the whole are "painting all soldiers with the same brush"...

You vets dont seem to see the wood for the trees....you know??

Be a proud vet...whatever turns you on and makes you proud.....

But dont make ANY excuse for this behaviour, be it by a handful, or a whole @&#$kin' battalion........it is appalling...and anybody with even a smidgeon of decency knows this....

I have also "served" my country in a theatre of war....

...and to the previous Vet from a couple of pages ago....NO...I dont understand...

And to the people who are thanking the vets for their assistance in Amerika "defend" its freedom( bizzarely via Iraq,on the other side of the planet)..... I say HA!!


The "defending its freedom"part is what you should be attacking. Serving your country honestly and honorably is not a crime. We are still at war. We should be supporting our troops not demonizing them however we see fit when a few of them go off the handle and do something stupid. I was in the military..some guys are not exactly top notch caliber. But most of the time they don't do anything this insane, either. Alot of times they do serve their country honorably. Alot of people do alot of very stupid things in the military. But that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't served their country honorably.

I just don't think we should attack the many (veterans) because of the personal biases of the few. Our troops AND veterans still need our support whether we agree with the reasons for war or not. God knows they didn't exactly volunteer to come home without fingers, limbs, or faces. But they did volunteer to serve. And that's something alot of people will never really understand. When you're in the military and you don't like it, you can claim conscienscious objector status. If you're in the military and you love it, you still have to follow the orders of the executive branch even when you disagree. If you're a civilian you can just hate anybody you want and voice that opinion openly.

-ChriS



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 12:39 AM
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Everyone wants to blame the military however if you take the time to read the reports by US military personnel that came forward were talking about abuse by contractors. So it turns out these abuses your talking about wasn't done by US Military but appears it was done by 2 companies contracted to conduct interrogations and had to produce results in order to make money go figure.




The commanding officer at the prison, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, was demoted to the rank of Colonel on May 5, 2005. Col. Karpinski has denied knowledge of the abuses, claiming that the interrogations were authorized by her superiors and performed by subcontractors, and that she was not even allowed entry into the interrogation rooms.





The prisoner Manadel al-Jamadi died in Abu Ghraib prison after being interrogated and tortured by a CIA officer and a private contractor. The torture included physical violence and strappado hanging. His death has been labeled a homicide by the US military [7], but neither of the two men that caused his death have been charged. The private contractor was granted immunity.



Look Military personnel goes to jail looks like he took the fall for the contractor since they were granted immunity huh?



WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Lawyers representing allegedly abused Iraqi prisoners filed suit in U.S. federal court Tuesday alleging killing, torture and other abuses against the prisoners or their family members in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. The lawsuit, filed by Iraqi Torture Victims Group (ITVG) on behalf of five Iraqis, names two U.S. companies, CACI International and the Titan Corporation, which were contracted by the U.S. government to provide interrogation services to coalition forces in Iraq.


Heres your rape case:One civilian stands accused of raping a juvenile Iraqi inmate but the name of the civilian is not revealed in the report.
These facts are not reported by the media because its contrary to there agenda.


[edit on 5/29/09 by dragonridr]



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


Your generalizations make me sick! This would be similar to me assuming that because I seen a picture of a Canadian Civilian raping a sheep, they must all do that with some hidden agenda.

A lot of members here are correct. Its a few bad apples. Still, the incidences of this kind of behavior by a FEW of our soldiers (I would call it a "crime") probably are nothing compared to the amount of crime in Montreal every day (perpetuated by civilians).

Mind your own troops why don't you!



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 02:08 AM
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Sorry but who really gives a sh*t?

Al Jazeera ( or whoever it's spelt) is more than happy to show allied soldiers or hostages being beheaded arent' they?

War tends to show not only the very best but also the very worst of humanity, why shouldn't the allies be any different in disrespecting the POWs than the enemy, the only thing we moan about is the fact that they are supposed to be our troops and therefore our figureheads and are supposed to be good and pure.

Good and Pure my A*se. War is evil , so why not let evil out the box occasionally, after all if your not going to do that, then why bother having wars??

WE AS A SPECIES SHOULD GROW UP, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE CIVILISED AND 'ADVANCED' BUT ALL WE EVER DO IS ACT LIKE CAVEMEN FIGHTING OVER A GNAWED BONE..



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 03:15 AM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Are there still people here on ATS that will say that they support the troops?


Yes, 100%.

And a few bad apples isn't enough to condemn them all, IMO.


(for the record, I don't support the wars - only the troops who have to fight in them)



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 03:27 AM
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"War is Hell" Letting evil out to play has occured in every war, we as a human race have ever participated in. Name a war where this or something similar hasn't happened? The only difference now is we have digital cameras that record these actions in a timely manner. They don't sit in a camera waiting for the soldier to come home to develop them. How many photos do you think were trashed in the past so that no buddies were incriminated or held accountable? Now they come out at the speed of light into the public eye and in this case are shown to a few and then hidden. Embarrasing photos have emerged since the advent of the camera, but these, based on what I've seen posted from Abu Graib have a different feel to them. These soldiers were having fun on an evil scale, a scale of pride, dominance, aggression and deviance.

In 1993 or so I ran into a classmate that had returned from Iraq, he was a Medic in the Army. He bragged to me about marching Iraqi POW's through a mine field on purpose. He also admitted to me that he O D many a Iraqi on morphine under his care just because. I am as ashamed now as I was then of those that commit these crimes wearing my flag.

Where is the guilty line drawn here is my question? Offender=Guilty. Supervisor= Guilty, Onlookers=accessory/Guilty, Those that are suppressing evidence or protecting those that are guilty/ Guilty of Obstruction of Justice at best. This is why the past and present administrations don't want this out, Congressman, Senators, The White House, would have to come up with some excuse as to why ALL of those involved aren't strung up on a Yard ARM. We as Americans are better than this, I suggest we all start acting like it.

I'm going to bed pissed, Thank you sir may I have another? Not....

[edit on 29-5-2009 by The Undertaker]



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 05:04 AM
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Even as the proof comes out you will deny it, and justify it.




Former US Soldier, Steven Green, was recently given life in prison without the possibility of parole for the 2007 rape, mutilation and murder of a 14-year-old girl in Mahmoudiya, Iraq. Not only was Green the ringleader in the rape and murder; the squad also killed her family.

Unfortunately, even though Green was a “bad apple,” the situation we find ourselves in is an entire salad of rotten fruit and incidences like this one are not uncommon, but rarely reported.

Once when I was in Amman, Jordan speaking with prominent Iraqis, a Sheikh told me that US soldiers burst into his home, severely beating him and raping his wife, all in the presence of his 14-year-old son. The Sheikh told me that it was his son’s fondest dream to kill US Soldiers. Can you imagine this happening to your family? What if something like this happened in your home? You’re sitting around watching American Idol, or some crap like that, and Iraqis break into your home and terrorize and brutalize your family? I am sure you would all just chalk it up to “freedom and democracy” and be happy to go about your miserable lives comforted by the fact that your country was being occupied and destroyed for your own good.

During the US-UN-Clinton led sanctions against Iraq, the UN estimates that over 500,000 children died from starvation, disease, or violence. 500,000 Iraqi children would be like 5,000,000 US children dying. Former UN Ambassador under Clinton called that sacrifice for US Empire by the children of Iraq “worth it.” Over one million people have died in Iraq since Bush's invasion in 2003 and most of that figure counts women and children.

I have spoken to men who were still in their teens who were sodomized with broom handles in Guantanamo. I have seen the horrific photos of the US’s inhumanity to man and cannot forgive my country for the terror it has unleashed on the world. I can’t stand the fact that our government operates with such craven cowardice and has harmed so many people while Americans revel in blissful ignorance.
informationclearinghouse.info...





posted on May, 29 2009 @ 06:04 AM
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this seems to be a common problem with some in this thread. The soldiers here who are sticking up for the "entire millitary" are actually sticking up for their fellow soldiers who did nothing wrong. Some people with small minds think that that means we condone rape and torture. We don't. Some also think that we as soldiers (or vets) must think the government is doing a great job and we wouldn't change a thing. That also is not true.

You can say all you want about the big bad governmnent. But don't generalize all soldiers when you do. We proudly served not for Bush, or Obama, but for you.

And when I made my comment about leaving if you didn't like it, I meant it. You do have that option. You also have the option to stay here and bad mouth the soldiers that protect you. The reason you have that option is because they make sure you can.



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 06:38 AM
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I am SICK AND TIRED of people saying troops are risking their lives so you don't have to.

What a load of BS!!!!!!!!

Majority of north american people(both us and canada) don't want you there and neither does iraqi govt. So Nobody wants you there except for war-profiteers.

You are NOT defending your country you are making it more dangerous and propelling hatred towards this land to greater heights.

So please stop saying you are doing this for your people because you are not.


Originally posted by AnonymousMoose
So we should tell the troops to piss off just because they are following orders in another country? .

troops should come home
plain and simple
stop occupying foreign land which creates anger and hatred and puts us in danger.


Originally posted by AnonymousMoose
Just because I support the troops doesn't mean I am supporting everything that is going on over there. I support these brave young soldiers who are putting their lives on the line, and doing their duty by obeying orders.


you supporting the troops but not the war means you are stuck in a paradox. That's like saying "I hate corrupt big pharma but god bless their pills".

Yes the soldiers abroad are brave, but i'm sorry that's not enough.
that doesn't justify their actions - foreign occupation.

And it really boggles the mind how brave soldiers so easily get trapped in this slave mentality.

Nobody wants you there!



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 06:43 AM
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Some interesting opinions on this thread, especially from those claiming to be vets. I havent read through all the replies for which I apologise but I wanted to add some information regarding interrogation and military training for said techniques. I am a former British Army soldier. I served in West Germany attached to an Intelligence unit during the Cold War and a Commando unit during the first Gulf War. I worked with a number of different regiments within the British armed forces and a fair number of foreign forces including the US military. First let me state that I am not proud of my service in Iraq in 91 but still feel a limited pride of my other military achievements but acknowledge that they were misguided. Do I support the troops? No I dont for reasons far too complicated to go into now. The information I want to supply regards a unit within the British Armed forces called the Joint Forces Interrogation Unit. This unit is mostly made up of Air Force reserve personnel, some RAF police dog handlers and a few female soldiers. They train and test serving personnel in resistance to interrogation, techniques for interrogation and testing personnel with sensitive jobs for security evaluation. Their mandate may have more to it and may have changed since the end of the Cold War but seeing some of the crimes being commited in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places I doubt it. I have no idea what the equivalent unit may be in the American forces but have no doubt they exist. Some of the methods taught to personnel are sleep deprivation, food/water withholding, white noise and stress positions, physical violence and or the threat of physical violence. Sexual humiliation and actual sexual assault. Psychological intensive interragation designed to find the weak spots in your psyche and take advantage, be it religious, political, sexual. You name it and they will pull it. Now physical torture was never actually taught in a obvious manner but you can explain how a certain foreign military use torture but we are not allowed to use it and see how someone will pick up the technique. These things are taught during relative peace so how they are expanded during a real war (if you can call a slaughter on third world peoples a war) is anybodies guess. Every serving man and woman during these illegal conflicts has a duty to be ashamed of their participation whether they take part in atrocities or not. Guilt by association.



posted on May, 29 2009 @ 09:23 AM
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Well how come their arent gays in the US army, when more of their troops rape men?



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