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Has there ever been a report of a flying saucer, captain, that's was translated in to hard-information, right here, a plot on the board in this room.
I don't think so Bill, for the reason, that these sightings have never been substantiated and could not be translated in to hard radar return figures.
There have been sightings then but they've turned out to be other things, airplanes or balloons ...
But never a saucer.
You see everything up to roughly 100,000 ft?
Yes that's right, up to approximately 100,000 ft at which point the space tracking network takes over.
I do not believe, let me stress, that this has been part of some top-secret cover-up of extensive investigations by Air Force or security agencies; I have found no substantial basis for accepting that theory of why the Air Force has so long failed to respond appropriately to the many significant and scientifically intriguing UFO reports coming from within its own ranks. Briefly, I see grand foul-up but not grand cover-up. Although numerous instances could be cited wherein Air Force spokesmen failed to release anything like complete details of UFO reports, and although this has had the regrettable consequence of denying scientists at large even a dim notion of the almost incredible nature of some of the more impressive Air Force-related UFO reports, I still feel that the most grievous fault of 22 years of Air Force handling of the UFO problem has consisted of their repeated public assertions that they had substantial scientific competence on the job.
(For more see here: www.bibliotecapleyades.net...)
The conclusion I draw from all these facts is that even the
still Secret version of the Robertson Panel Report is no more
than a cover story - a play within a play - conceived and
executed for the dual purposes of confusing foreign intelligence
and reassuring the cadre of our own establishment. There is
ample precedent for the use of such double and triple layers of
security in connection with really important projects. For
example, the mere existence of the Manhattan Project was a
secret, but the nature and importance of that project was an
even bigger secret. In order to protect that bigger secret, an
elaborate cover story was developed: uranium was always referred
to as tuballoy, with the chemical symbol T substituted for U
even in the classified reports; the University of Chicago's
facility was referred to as the 'Metallurgical Laboratory';
Columbia University's facility was the 'SAM Laboratory'; and if
you were persistent enough to dig deeper, you would have learned
that SAM stood for 'Substitute Alloy Metals.' Moreover, to
conceal the genuine importance of the project, no unusual
attempts were made to protect its civilian scientists from the
draft. By the end of the war, more than a thousand specialists
in Oak Ridge alone had been allowed to go through basic training
before being quietly (re)assigned to the Project. I was one of
There is still discussion among those interested in UFOS as to
whether the Air Force's efforts at investigation, which are full
of inconsistencies and unsupported explanations, represent a
'foul-up' (confusion and inefficiency) or a 'cover-up' (a
deliberate conspiracy to keep the public in the dark).
Logically, it is Just as difficult to prove a nonconspiracy in
this matter as it is to prove non-ETI. Effort directed at either
proof is probably wasted. On the other hand, we do have to make
decisions in situations where we might act differently if we
could be certain of either foul-up or cover-up. Even without
evidence, in view of the charges that have been made, I would
think it safer and therefore wiser to act as if we are dealing
with cover-up. If this is incorrect, not much is lost. If this
is the truth, we may eventually generate the proof of it. To
assume a pure foul-up is to play ostrich. To assume a fouled-up
cover-up, or even a deliberately imperfect cover-up, is
For more see here: www-public.tu-bs.de:8080...
It is important to mention that Project Blue Book Special Report 14 was never publicly distributed by the Air Force, either when it was completed in 1955 or anytime later despite enormous public interest in UFOs. There was a grossly misleading press release issued on October 25, 1955. It received very wide distribution. It gave no information about who did the work, where the work was done, or even the correct title for the document. No newsman asked any of these relevant questions. An accompanying “summary” of this study somehow managed to avoid including any of massive amount of factual data in the report.
No one questioned the totally false statement by Secretary of the Air Force, Donald Quarles, who said “On the basis of this report we believe that no objects such as those popularly described as flying saucers have overflown the United States. Even the unknown 3% could have been identified as conventional phenomena or illusions, if more complete observational data had been available.” This statement certainly implies that there are no good sightings by competent observers that cannot be identified by competent investigators. Tables 1 and 2 clearly illustrate that the Unknowns were 21.5% of those cases investigated and not 3%, and that they were completely separate from those sightings listed as Insufficient Information.
Perhaps the most serious misrepresentation by the Air Force and swallowed whole by the journalistic and scientific communities is that Project Blue Book and its predecessors was a serious scientific effort to get to the bottom of the UFO mystery and that it was the only government organization studying UFOs. How anybody could swallow this nonsense given the small size, low budget, and limited scientific expertise of Blue Book (at least from 1955 to its closure in 1969) is one of the mysteries of the mid-twentieth century. Blue Book normally had a major, a sergeant or two, a couple of secretaries and a lot of filing cabinets. It had no aircraft at its disposal, no radar, no computers, no closed communications and most important no need-to-know for the data obtained by those agencies such as the Aerospace Defense Command, the National Security Agency, the CIA, the FBI, etc., which had far bigger budgets, much larger staffs, and much greater ability to investigate UFO sightings and collect data both in the U.S. and overseas.
While there have been frequent accusations in the past about a government cover-up of UFO related data obtained through military and intelligence channels, there is a growing body of documentation to support those charges. For example, Dr. Bruce Maccabee has obtained well over 1,000 pages of UFO related correspondence and sighting reports from FBI files, despite the fact that J. Edgar Hoover, the long time head of the FBI, often wrote that the FBI is not now nor has ever been collecting information about UFOs.
A Freedom of Information (FOI) suit against the CIA, begun by Ground Saucer Watch, but pushed to fruition by Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS), with most of the effort coming from Berkeley researcher Brad Sparks, has forced the release of over 900 pages of UFO-related items complete with deletions, and admission of the existence of at least 57 other UFO-related documents not released. None of the released documents were classified higher than SECRET though my visits to 15 archives have established that there are loads of TOP SECRET documents out there.Sparks has indicated that in just the first ¼ of the released documents there were references to over 200 other UFO related documents not yet explicitly revealed, released, or acknowledged by the CIA. Future legal actions are expected to greatly swell the amount of available information from the CIA, NSA, and a variety of other intelligence agencies not generally accountable to the public or press.
Charles Buffer, for example, persisted (despite frequent denials of the existence of any such document by agencies which later evidence clearly showed had copies) in obtaining the release of the classified memo from an American military attaché in Iran describing a very fascinating multiple witness air and ground radar-confirmed military aircraft chase of a UFO. The distribution list for the memo included the CIA, the DIA, the White House, the Secretary of Defense, the Commander of Naval Operations, etc.
Since the NSA was listed as having produced 18 of the 57 other agency documents found by the CIA, an FOI request was made to them. It was turned down flat on the grounds of National Security. An appeal in Federal Court resulted in the NSA being forced to search its files for UFO information. They found 239 UFO documents including 79 other-agency ones of which 23 were, believe it or not, from the CIA. They released none. They were petitioned to show the 160 NSA UFO documents to the Judge, Gerhardt Gesell, so that he could determine whether they were properly invoking National Security. They refused to show him any of the 160 NSA UFO documents, but did provide him with a 21 page TOP SECRET+++ IN CAMERA Affidavit justifying the withholding. Our lawyer was not shown this document since it required a very special security clearance.
Judge Gesell ruled in favor of the NSA not releasing any of the documents saying (Nov. 18, 1980): “The in-camera affidavit presented factual considerations which aided the court in determining that the public interest in disclosure is far outweighed by the sensitive nature of the materials and the obvious effect on national security their release may well entail.” The Federal Court of Appeals agreed with the Gesell ruling after seeing the affidavit. The Supreme Court wouldn’t hear the case. The affidavit when received after a FOI request was itself 75% blacked out. For more than a decade I have challenged debunker P. J. Klass to provide any of the NSA withheld documents or a cleaner copy of the affidavit. No luck so far, but he still contends that there is no cover-up!
Representative Steven H. Schiff of New Mexico asked the General Accounting Office---the investigative arm of Congress---to urge the Pentagon to declassify documents relating to Roswell. In response, Secretary of the Air Force Sheila E. Widnall ordered that the Air Force investigation and report be as thorough as possible. The results of that investigation were reported in a box on the front page of The New York Times in late September that same year. According to the Times, "The wreckage, quickly whisked away by the Air Force, was part of an airborne system for atomic-age spying" called Project Mogul. Balloon-launched, its purpose was to search high in the atmosphere for weak reverberations from nuclear blasts half a world away. The debris, found near Roswell, N.M., was a smashed part of the program's balloon's sensors, and, of most consequence to the growth of spaceship theories, radar reflectors made of thin metal foil.
"At the time, the Air Force said the wreckage was that of a weather balloon, a white lie, " the Times piece continued. "But over the decades, the incident grew to mythic dimensions among flying-saucer cultists, who spun slim evidence into weighty charges.... On Sept. 8, after an eight-month investigation, the Air Force issued a report and a number of thick appendices that to all appearances deflate the conspiracy theory once and for all. Of course, ardent flying-saucer contend that the cover-up continues."
(source: muller.lbl.gov... & www.coverups.com...)
The evidence for it is extensive actually. The government’s own documents show that the official policy for dealing with the subject is denial and establishing ridicule, even when cases clearly indicate a threat to national security (whatever their origin). So, are these “alleged” documents, forged by some UFO nut or unscrupulous author? Nope. They are official documents, publicly available.
The Robertson Panel
The Robertson Panel, as it came to be known, was a committee created by the CIA in 1952, largely to address the problem of two incidents of UFOs buzzing Washington DC.
They finally drafted a report, sometimes called the Durant Report (after the Panel secretary), in January of 1953. To clarify, the Robertson Panel Report is actually within the Durant Report (it is specifically the part dealing with the recommendations of the panel, whereas the full Durant Report contains notes for each meeting).
The full text of the Durant Report can be found here: www.cufon.org...
Let’s look at some of their recommendations:
The Panel's concept of a broad educational program integrating efforts of all concerned agencies was that it should have two major aims: training and "debunking."
The "debunking" aim would result in reduction in public interest in "flying saucers" which today evokes a strong psychological reaction. This education could be accomplished by mass media such as television, motion pictures, and popular articles. Basis of such education would be actual case histories which had been puzzling at first but later explained. As in the case of conjuring tricks, there is much less stimulation if the "secret" is known.
It should be noted, that two Bluebook members, Ruppelt and Hyneck, were part of this panel, and later became respected UFOlogists. So, we’ve got the US government plainly stating that they plan to use mass media to manipulate public interest in the subject. But…did they ever carry it out? Yes, they did.
Still think there isn’t a coverup? One can find even more than what is mentioned here.
G. Steinberg: Now one of your contemporaries, somebody you ran across, in not [unintelligible] a very favorable way, but somebody a lot of people heard of Maj. Donald Keyhoe.
G. Steinberg: He wrote a number of books through the years, he insisted that the extra-terrestrials were coming tomorrow. Of course, tomorrow became yesterday, and the day before, and the year before, and the decade before. Now maybe lets go back to this history now that we've got a basic perspective of where you stand on this thing. Your encounters with Donald Keyhoe were not very friendly, tell us ...
Mosley: Well I barely knew the man. I was not pleased by his basic attitude and the attitude taken by his organization NICAP and that was in the '50s and 60s a long time ago, but he most of all of the leading researchers of that time or later time. He blamed the Air Force for not telling us what they knew. He thought the whole solution to the mystery was to force the government to, uh, give out their information and, uh, let us know the truth, et cetera. And I thought that approach was a very limited and very non-productive simply because they didn't know the answer any more than we do.
G. Steinberg: The Air Force had some kind of information that, perhaps, he wanted to get to through the Federal government.
Mosley: Pardon me?
G. Steinberg: Well, this goes back to the issue of the disorganization of the Federal Government and the notion that perhaps there are cells working in the government that are designed to keep information from one another. [Cross Talk] So the question is how do you find that cell?
Mosley: Well I think it's not far fetched to think that at different times and for different reasons that the government has given out, deliberately, disinformation about UFOs.
G. Steinberg: uh huh.
Mosley: There was a time, perhaps, that they wanted the Russians or whoever to think that we were in touch with intelligent aliens and getting technology from them. And then of course that would put us ahead of these other countries; and we give those countries something more to worry about and more reason to fear us. I don't doubt that they've been less than honest with us, but I don't think that's the key to the whole thing.
While historians dismiss claims of a cover-up by pointing out that some details of the Exercise Tiger deaths were released in August 1944 and highlighting that many documents relating to it were declassified long ago, some survivors have more questions than answers about what happened that night.
Sadlon, who was a 3rd class petty officer at the time, only learned of the death toll when fellow veterans started to defy the gag order 40 years on, allowing the puzzle to be pieced together.
"Nothing was said about all of those guys who lost their lives," said Sadlon, 86.
Originally posted by fls13
reply to post by Xtraeme
My point in linking to the story was that, yes, secrets can be kept. Cumming doesn't quote any specific historians dismissing "claims of a cover-up," but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck . . . . .
An ongoing phenomenon like UFOs is obviously quite different than an isolated training tragedy, even one with 749 deaths. What you have with the UFOs is a huge volume of material, some of which can be/needed to be/was in fact covered up, some material manipulated and some completely harmless because of a simple explanation and therefore harmlessly disseminated.
(i.e. Lack of Knowledge theory )
It is recommended that CIA surveillance of subject matter, in coordination with proper authorities of primary operational concern at ATIC, be continued. It is strongly urged, however, that no indication of CIA interest or concern reach the press or public, in view of their probable alarmist tendencies to accept such interest as "confirmatory" of the soundness of "unpublished facts" in the hands of the U.S. Government.
Originally posted by Ridhya
Aliens are a convenient way to keep people busy, and what better way to make people believe, than to show proof and then deny proof.
Its like, tell someone you have something important to announce! And then refuse to tell them. They go mad and actually get angry with you because of the mystery. If you really want to piss someone off do this
Originally posted by Frith
What governments have ever done what you're typing about here? None of them have ever said they're producing proof. All of their disclosures have just been UFO sighting reports or investigations into those sightings that were archived and they never claimed to be anything more than that. I have never read of any government publicly claiming it had gone to the effort of proving aliens were real and then denying it.
Even in the Roswell incident the U.S. military originally just said it had a UFO and made no mention of its origin. Then a day later denied that. Nothing about aliens being here.
In intelligence, if you have something to say about some vital problem you write a report that is known as an "Estimate of the Situation." A few days after the DC-3 was buzzed, the people at ATIC decided that the time had arrived to make an Estimate of the Situation. The situation was the UFO's; the estimate was that they were interplanetary!