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Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

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posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by ahnggk
 


Well then, my hats off to you.




posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 

Using the 4th commandment of the Ten Commandments in keeping the Sabbath holy, we are to honor the Annual Sabbaths also....7 total.
The only Rabbi I knew personally said the holiest day of the year is the weekly Sabbath. That comes from a religious Jew. I remember when they had a display with food at the International Fall Festival, which was a big event in our community, he had them shut it down (the temple's booth) during the Sabbath. He said, "we have to guard the borders of the Sabbath." So he actually practiced what he preached.
He was not about to give other holy days any super prominent status and understood them as traditions. Granted he was Reformed, but he had a very spiritual understanding of things.
You seem to be trying to be more holy and law abiding than the Jews themselves. I do not think that was Jesus' objective, though he was pretty serious about showing up at the Temple for the holidays.
The forth commandment is specific that it is for observing the day God rested after the six days of creation. I do not see how you can apply it to any other day.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by ahnggk
 

you know many/most Christians do attend church on Sundays even if they might be wrong.
Most people have never questioned why they worship on Sunday. They do not realize it originated with a sun worshiping pagan Roman Emperor.
There are various reasons why someone should. A vigil would seem legitimate to me, if someone wanted to get up in the dark and pray until the sun comes up on the morning of the first day of the week, in memory of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
This is where I think the early tradition of Sunday comes from and you can see evidence of it in histories and the writings of the councils of the church. The problem comes in when they use it to supplant the Sabbath and say if you keep the Sabbath, you are Judaizing. They not only made a new institution, but made the old tradition illegal.
Sunday was not called a Sabbath but something that is exactly the opposite of the Sabbath, called the Lord's Day. If you knelt and looked down while you prayed on the Sabbath, on the Lord's day, you would pray standing up and looking to heaven. If you fasted on the Sabbath, you now feast on the Lord's day, and so you have the tradition of the big Sunday dinner.




[edit on 5-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 02:07 PM
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LOCOMAN

The June 1, 2009 issue of the Watchtower has a really great article that touches on this subject. Here it is in MP3:

Does God Change His Mind?

I encourage you to take a few minutes to listen to it.


Maribel



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


The 7 holy day sabbaths are known as "High-Day Sabbaths" which seems to me to emphasize the importance of these days. 7 specific days out of the year in addition to our weekly sabbaths. None supercede the others.. they are equal in importance. In the beginning of the holy day laws in leviticus 23 Moses speaks first about the weekly sabbath and how it's a weekly holy day. Then he commences to explain the holy day feasts and the sabbath days attached to these holy days. Passover is not a sabbath but the day after (First day of Unleavened Bread) is our first ANNUAL sabbath. The last day of Unleavened bread is our second annual sabbath. Pentecost, which just past last weekend is our third annual sabbath. Feast of Trumpets is our 4th annual sabbath. Day of Atonement is our 5th annual sabbath. The first day of the feast of Tabernacles is an annual sabbath. The last great day or 8th day of tabernacles is our 7th annual sabbath. On these days we are to have a day of rest in addition to the weekly sabbath. Jesus and the apostles followed these holy day regulations. So did the first century church. Paul repreatedly wrote about being in Jerusalem on certain holy days. The new testament church even started on Pentecost, an annual sabbath holy day. If it weren't for the multitude of people meeting "in like mind" on this holy day, the Holy Spirit would not have been poured out and the church wouldn't have started on this holy day. But it did happen and they were there to honor this holy day. The Roman Catholics, through many councils.... the most famous being the council of nicea..... did away with the christian versions of God's holy days. Instead, they implemented the traditions carried in through paganism. Easter, Christmas, the days of the Saints.... i.e. St. Valentines Day, St. Patricks Day, etc.... all have pagan traditions tied into them. Even denominations not following these holidays are still under the impression of Jesus being crucified in 33 AD.... which holds the tradtion of Good Friday and Easter Sunday but doesn't add up to what scripture says. God's Holy Days were commanded, pagan holidays were commanded against. Read over Deuteronomy 12:29-32. Read Jeremiah 10:1-5. Read the 2nd commandment. God's holy days are important to understanding the ultimate purpose for mankind on earth. Christianized pagan holidays have no true biblical meanings to help expand one's knowledge of God's purpose for us.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by holywar
 


Thanks. I'll watch or listen to it when I get a chance. I'm getting ready for work at the moment but I'll check it out.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 
Sorry but no go. magic numbers? wrong! throw in another twelve for the new moons and the argument goes down the tubes.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


It's pretty cut and dry in scripture. No new moon celebration. The holy days revolved around the harvest moon cycles from passover (march-april) full moon to tabernacle full moon cycles. Pentecost is on a half-moon. It's true they revolve around the moon cycles. This is because the hebrew calendar was and is a lunar calendar with 360 days in their year. I don't know why I bother with you on this because your mind is obviously made up and nothing will change that. Even if God gives you a neon sign telling you to observe the holy days, you would be blind to the fact. All over the new testament do you find Jesus and the church founders celebrating these holy days. If you would like a list of scriptures to prove this, I'd be more than happy to share them with you. Just ask.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 

I might have you confused with someone else who I had discussions with, a long time ago, who was in one of the Armstrong off-shoots who did believe in the new moons.
To me, there may be more validity to the new moons than to other holidays because it is mentioned as something that will be noticed in the New World.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I do follow the teachings of Armstrong but all he ever taught was the celebration of the holy days mentioned in Leviticus 23, not 12 new moons. After the death of Armstrong, the WCG broke up into many splinter groups and most of them twisted the teachings of Armstrong to their likeing. We currently attend services with the Living Church of God in Atlanta. They follow the teachings of Armstrong (also known as the true biblical doctrine of the Gospel of God's Kingdom). In fact, the only living evangelist ordained through Armstrong, Roderick Meredith, is the founder of the Living Church of God. Our church doesn't believe Armstrong was a prophet or apostle. He was simply the man used by God to re-discover the true teachings of Christ as practiced in the first century. The church Armstrong founded first known as the Radio Church of God, a radio program hosted by him and later known as the Worldwide Chruch of God, believed to be the church era of the Philadelphians in revelation. After Armstrong died and the WCG broke apart, the Laodecian era began. The Living Church of God believes to be the remnant of the Philadelphia Church Era that will be protected during the Tribulation from God's punishment and raptured up at the first resurrection after tribulation and the return of Christ. We will be part of God's government under the leadership of Christ during the 1000 years of peace on earth. Just thought I'd share some insight on my beliefs and my Church.

[edit on 6/6/2009 by Locoman8]



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 

Thanks for clearing that up.
I got into some discussions with this other person a while back on the Law issue. At the time I was arguing against it because I thought they were using it as a way for works to be something that people can claim as if they could get credit for it. When pinned down, I eventually admitted to keeping the Sabbath. Then it was them trying to recruit me into their particular version of what came out of the Radio Church of God.


[edit on 6-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 




so if the sabbath was something since the beginning of man, did abraham, noah, seth, or any other man before moses observe the sabbath?

your quoted statement is void if you answer no.


I'm sorry I didn't get back to you on this one because I really wanted to answer it and teach you a little bit of a lesson, respectfully. My answer is an exclamated YES!

Genesis 26:5
"because Abraham OBEYED MY VOICE and KEPT my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES, and MY LAWS."

Abraham followed God's commandments, statutes, and Laws. What does this mean? It means God's spiritual law was followed by the Patriarchs. You have to understand that before the Exodus, only an extremely small handfull of people were chosen by God as patriarchs and were dealt with directly by God. The Law was in existence. It has been since the beginning of creation. Remember the Sabbath was created at the Beginning of human history. Abraham followed these commands long before the old covenant with Israel.

Now ask yourself a question. What is a covenant? It's an agreement between God and ____(place 2nd party here). The Laws, Commandments, and Statutes were not the actual old covenant. The old covenant INCLUDED these LAWS. The Laws didn't end when the new covenant began. Let's look at what the commandment of the Sabbath actually says. Let's disect it for lack of better words.

Exodus 20:8-11
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you , nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

You see, God said to REMEMBER the Sabbath day. This means it was already in existence and in working motion. The Hebrews in Egypt had been in captivity for 400 years, forgetting the ways of their forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. God wanted to remind them that He created the heavens and earth in six days and rested on the seventh. He then goes on to tell them to "keep" the seventh day holy. You can't KEEP cold water hot. How can they keep something they never had? The fact is, the Sabbath was there, it had just been forgotten.

Let's look back at Moses and the freed Israelites before the old covenant was made with them. Was there any mention of the Sabbath before they recieved the Ten Commandments?

Exodus 16
The people of Israel were "murmuring" against God because they wanted more food. So God said: "I will...test them, whether they will walk in my law or not" (v. 4). This is interesting-more proof that God's law was definitely in effect even before the giving of the Old Covenant at Mount Sinai!
So God explained that He would perform the following miracle. Every day of the week, except Saturday, a special food from heaven called "manna" would blanket the ground in the morning like dew. The people were to gather it up each morning and eat it that same day. They could not keep it overnight, because that would cause it to breed worms and stink.
But there would be no manna on the ground on Saturdays. What, then, were they to eat on that day? God's answer: the second phase of His miracle. Every Friday, He would give them a double portion of manna-one portion for that day and another to be kept overnight and eaten on Saturday (vv. 22-23). This would require a third phase of the miracle. God would allow manna collected on Fridays to remain unspoiled overnight, so that it could be eaten on Saturday. From Friday to Saturday was the only time each week they were permitted to keep food overnight-for God was showing them that Friday was the preparation day for the Sabbath.
Thus, God was arranging things so they would not have to do the work of gathering manna on Saturday-enabling them to rest on the Sabbath, yet still have something to eat that day. "So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, 'Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field'"(vv.24-25).

So far, I have shown you that Abraham followed the Laws and Commandments BEFORE the old covenant.
Moses and the Israelites were following the Sabbath BEFORE they were given the old covenant.

My answer to your question is YES, YES, YES they kept God's Sabbath before the Old Covenant because God created it at the dawn of mankind's existence.



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 



But it was never clearly specified in the bible for us today, not that I am disagreeing with you.
I good example of this is when Potiphar's wife tried to seduce Joseph. His reaction...

Genesis 39 verses 7-12
7 And after a time, his master's wife, looking on Joseph with desire, said to him, Be my lover. 8 But he would not, and said to her, You see that my master keeps no account of what I do in his house, and has put all his property in my control; 9 So that no one has more authority in this house than I have; he has kept nothing back from me but you, because you are his wife; how then may I do this great wrong, sinning against God? 10 And day after day she went on requesting Joseph to come to her and be her lover, but he would not give ear to her. 11 Now one day he went into the house to do his work; and not one of the men of the house was inside. 12 And pulling at his coat, she said, Come to my bed; but slipping out of his coat, he went running away.

There was no clear law mentioned in the bible against Adultery up till then, yet Joseph knew it was wrong, a sin against God even.
How did he know?
A godly conscience, or was there some type of verbalized communication between God and the early patriarchs, the bible doesn't elaborate, for us to know how for sure.



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 07:36 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


The history of a weekly 24-hour sabbath observance BEGINS with the nation of Israel in the wilderness in the second month after their Exodus from Egypt in 1513 B.C.E. Then formally given with the law a short time later.


Deuteronomy 5:15 (New International Version)

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.



That the Sabbath was not enjoined upon any of God’s servants until after the Exodus is evident from the testimony of Deuteronomy 5:2, 3 and Exodus 31:16, 17: “It was not with our forefathers that Jehovah concluded this covenant, but with us.” “The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath . . . during their generations. . . . Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.” If Israel had already been observing the Sabbath, it could not have served as a reminder of their deliverance from Egypt by Jehovah, as shown at Deuteronomy 5:15. The fact that some of the Israelites went out to pick up manna on the seventh day, in spite of direct instruction to the contrary, indicates that Sabbath observance was something new. (Ex 16:11-30) That there was uncertainty in handling the case of the first recorded Sabbath breaker after the Law had been given at Sinai also shows that the Sabbath had only recently been instituted. (Nu 15:32-36) While in Egypt the Israelites, being slaves, could not have kept the Sabbath even if they had been under such law at the time. Pharaoh complained that Moses was interfering even when he asked for a three-day period to make a sacrifice to God. How much more so if the Israelites had tried to rest one day out of every seven. (Ex 5:1-5) While it is true that the patriarchs apparently measured time in a week of seven days, there is no evidence that any distinction was made as to the seventh day. Seven was prominent, however, as a number that often denoted completeness. (Ge 4:15, 23, 24; 21:28-32) The Hebrew word “swear” (sha·va‛′) is evidently from the same root as the word meaning “seven.”


link to source



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by holywar
 


While it is true that the patriarchs apparently measured time in a week of seven days, there is no evidence that any distinction was made as to the seventh day.
The Egyptians, where the Hebrews just came out of, were keeping a ten day week.
God took them out of Egypt because they had lost track of the old ways and needed to go where they could get back into keeping a seven day cycle.
This is why God was saying to remember the Sabbath. They did not even remember their original week that they had been keeping when they had gone into Egypt, generations earlier.
God said he was taking the Hebrews out of Egypt so that they could worship Him. Why could they not worship Him in Egypt?
How can anyone think any of the Ten Commandments were new? They are just the old Law that been forgotten and God had to remind them about.


[edit on 7-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 10 2009 @ 01:50 AM
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reply to post by holywar
 


Just because it wasn't defined in the bible until Exodus as a 24 hour period of solemn rest, doesn't mean it wasn't in effect or followed by the Patriarchs. Genesis stated that Abraham followed the Laws, Commandments and Statutes of God. If this is the case and most of them weren't mentioned until Exodus, one can only put 2 and 2 together to realize God gave these commandments and laws to the patriarchs long before the nation of Israel. Jesus even said the Sabbath was made for MAN not man for the sabbath. If the Sabbath was exclusively for Israel and Israel only, I think Jesus would have picked better words. Jesus claimed that the Sabbath was for all of mankind. It's not even known as Israel's Sabbath. It's known as God's Sabbath or the "Sabbath of the LORD." This means it belongs to God. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. I tell you what.... even the most critical Catholic and Protestant leaders in history claim that Sabbath keeping christians, if following strict biblical doctrine, have more to back up their claim then the sunday keeping christains. There's too much evidence to back up the case of the Sabbath or even all 10 Commandments. Just like the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:17-19 stated, "Not one jot or one tittle will pass away from the Law until.... heaven and earth pass away."
The earth is still here. How much more proof is needed to stop from assuming that the JW reasoning around the law is so right? I guess you can't feed dog food to a cat.



posted on Jun, 10 2009 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by holywar
LOCOMAN

The June 1, 2009 issue of the Watchtower has a really great article that touches on this subject. Here it is in MP3:

Does God Change His Mind?

I encourage you to take a few minutes to listen to it.


Maribel



"God is the same yesterday, today and forever." Famous passage from the letter to the hebrews says it all. I listened to the June 1, 2009 article on God changing His mind. I found that article very misleading and lacking much of the facts. For instance, the quote from Colossians about not judging on food, new moons, and sabbaths was misleading because Paul wasn't talking about the Sabbath being done away with. I explained to you earlier, if you read the context of this letter, Paul was telling the church in Colosse... a pagan town.... to not let any of the pagans judge them for keeping God's Holy Days vs. pagan festivals. Keeping God's Sabbath vs. keeping the "day of the eternal sun" which was the pagan day of worship (sunday). Keeping laws on clean and unclean meats vs. unclean meats offered up to idols.
God's laws didn't change. This included the Sabbath law. The way in which they were to be followed changed. We, as christains, follow in spirit and truth. Not because we "have to"(old covenant) but because we "want to"(new covenant). The laws are written in our hearts and minds and followed through the gift of the Holy Spirit. The laws are automatically followed with only a "subconcious" thought on what the tablets of stone actually said. Same reason why Adam didn't need a law written out before the eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God's laws were in existence and working laws, but Adam had no need in them as long as he remained righteous and listen to the one rule about not eating the fruit from one tree. Adam knew not evil or sin before this fruit was eaten which means he automatically followed God's laws without realizing it.

Definition of Sin in the bible:
"The transgression of the LAW" (Lawlessness).

This means that sin is only measured by breaking one of God's Ten Commandments.

Hateing God is a sin.
Worshipping false idols is a sin.
Swearing is a sin.
Sabbath-breaking is a sin.
Dishonor to your parents is a sin.
Stealing is a sin.
Killing is a sin.
Adultry is a sin.
Lieing is a sin.
Lust or Covetness is a sin.

Is there anything outside of these commandments that are considered a sin? Oh, wait... you agree with all of these except for commandment #4? It's part of the Ten Commandments. Jesus said not to break even the least of the Commandments. Why is the Sabbath so important? Because it reminds us to take time from our busy schedule to spend 24 hours with God. How many sunday service attendees spend 24 hours honoring God in their daily routine? Go to church for 2 hours and be done? That's not right. With the Sabbath you have a day COMMANDED to keep specifically for the worship of GOD.



posted on Jun, 10 2009 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 



OK, so we can agree to disagree on this issue. But just to make it clear to you and every Christian out there.... by me NOT KEEPING SABBATH, I am not breaking anything!!!

For me to try to follow the steps of my master Jesus, and keep his "new law" and commandments... it surely takes more than two hours on Sunday that's for sure.

Just as I don't need a law to tell me it's not OK to kill, I also don't need a law to tell me I need to set time apart for God.

PEACE!


[edit on 10-6-2009 by holywar]



posted on Jun, 10 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by holywar
 

.... by me NOT KEEPING SABBATH, I am not breaking anything!!!
You are acknowledging the authority of the antichrist to change the Lord's day from the seventh to the first day of the week.

Even if hypothetically let's say the Sabbath is revoked, do you think the law against worshiping false gods is still in effect?

Worshiping Sunday is idolatry, in the day itself and in worshiping the Beast who created it as a day to keep.

The Sabbath is how you identify who your God is. Keeping a different day means you are worshiping who made that day holy to himself, who happens to be in the case of Sunday, the antichrist.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 10 2009 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?????????????????????????


I don't worship a "day".

Sunday
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday

I worship Jehovah God EVERYDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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