Oldest Americans 1.3 millon years???

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posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by NephraTari
reply to post by Kandinsky
 


I understand.. the migration is exactly what I am arguing here. There are no stories or legends passed down that relate that we came here from another land.


Actually, there are. Remember the Hopi stories of the travels (and how they actually make kind of a swastika shape) -- and how the Water Coyote clan is the one designated to lead the migration of the people?

Remember those? And emerging from the worlds below?




posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by NephraTari

I think this is quite possibly the greatest insult to Native Americans I have seen. I sincerely hope that someday the hard evidence is found that shows people with this ideology once and for all just how wrong they are.


With all due respect, my ancestors are Native American. And speaking as a Native American descendant and one who has close friends among "people who know things", I think we should respect that we have different teachings from our families. I respect that you feel your family has "always been here". I would like for you to respect my own understanding of how my ancestors came to this land long before any of the Europeans came here.

(translation for those of you who aren't familiar with the term -- a shaman will NEVER call himself/herself a shaman. They will say "oh, I know a few things". If you are someone of worth they will teach you a few things like smudging and many other traditions. But only after a very long time and a lot of trust.)



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by punkinworks09
 

Hello Punkinworks,


PW: ...there's several pages of post by someone hanging on to the idea that humans evovled separately in the americas, an idea that has been thouroghly refuted.


SC: I guess that would be me.


Yes. It would.


The idea may have been refuted in this thread but that does not been it has been disproved or debunked.


It has been, Scott.

Remember -- humans come from the lineage 'homo'. The hominids are a particular grouping of primates and only emerged some 5 million years ago. The Americas separated from Europe during the Jurassic, well over 200 million years ago... long before the primates arose. The separation of the Americas from Africa occurred during the Cretaceous, 100 million years ago
en.wikipedia.org...

* hominids had not evolved 100 million years ago
* The last primates in the Americas died off about 25 million years ago www.theprimata.com...
* even had they survived, they did not give rise to the hominid line. There fore, no humans evolved from them.


Fact is, the science of evolution - as we presently understand it - simply cannot preclude the possibility that an intelligent life form - different to but not entirely unlike humans - could have evolved its own independent lineage on this planet long before our own lineage and become extinct many millions of years ago, when our lineage was still lemurs flying about trees.


You actually haven't defined "intelligent." As I've said, T-Rex qualifies as intelligent under many definitions.


Anomalous artefacts (anomarts)? Many incnclusive.

Got one for us?


The fossil record? Incomplete.

Scott, I really wish I could sit down with you and explain (with the museum samples) what we mean by "incomplete." I don't think it means what you think it means.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Byrd
 

Hello Byrd,


Byrd: If you mean "capable of having complex language with abstract ideas and capable of forming complex tools by combining many simple tools (a wagon created from wheels, axles, etc)" then I believe that humans are the only species (so far) to exhibit this kind of behavior.


SC: You "believe" this to be the case, Byrd, but can you prove it?


Certainly. Show me something created by another species that involves combining multiple simple tools into a more complex tool.


I also note your caveat here - "so far". If evolution permits intelligent species simillar but different to ourselves to arise in the future (as per you "so far" caveat), I see absolutely no reason to suppose that intelligent species (different to but not entirely unlike humans) could not also have arisen in the past (along an entirely separate lineage to our own) and become extinct. You simply cannot use the fossil record as proof against such a conjecture since the fossil record is far from complete.


You haven't defined "intelligence" nor the capabilities of such a species. If I define "intelligence" as "having meaningful language" then I can point to dolphins and whales and say that we have long had intelligent beings other than humans on the planet.

But they're not human, they don't put multiple simple tools together to form a more complex tool, and they didn't build cities here on land in the Americas or leave footprints 1.3 million years ago.



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 04:33 AM
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reply to post by Byrd
 

Hello Byrd,


PW: ...there's several pages of post by someone hanging on to the idea that humans evovled separately in the americas, an idea that has been thouroghly refuted.

SC: I guess that would be me.

Byrd: Yes. It would.


SC: Nice to see you have taken to answering on everyone else's behalf.


SC: The idea may have been refuted in this thread but that does not been it has been disproved or debunked.

Byrd: It has been, Scott.


SC: Then point to me the killer blow. I don't see it. All I see here is your dogged determination to hold onto and promote the prevailing myopic view of evolution. You stated in an earlier post that scientists had already looked at the fossil record through the lens of polyphylogenetic evolution but had dismissed it (or words to that effect). Can you post me a link to their findings as I would really like to see who these scientists were, what they actually did and what their objections were. Thanks in advance.

Back to basics. You accept that different forms of, for example, grass could have evolved independently in different parts of the world (their differences attributed to their particular environment). If you accept this then you must also accept the logical extension of this line of reasoning i.e. that other higher life forms (and I mean here ultimately a species of high intelligence comparable to early humans) could also have independently evolved differently in two (or more) locations (along with many other animal species, of course).

So, whilst you are happy on the one hand to accept that different types of grass could evolve differently in differentt parts of the world, on the other hand you apparently do not accept that higher life forms (including a species comparable to modern humans) could do likewise.

Sorry, Byrd, but your position is inconsistent and contradictory and thereby effectively denies evolution. That's the bottom line here.

Regards,

Scott Creighton



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 05:05 AM
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reply to post by Byrd
 

Hello Byrd,



Byrd: If you mean "capable of having complex language with abstract ideas and capable of forming complex tools by combining many simple tools (a wagon created from wheels, axles, etc)" then I believe that humans are the only species (so far) to exhibit this kind of behavior.

SC: You "believe" this to be the case, Byrd, but can you prove it?

Byrd: Certainly. Show me something created by another species that involves combining multiple simple tools into a more complex tool.


SC: Just humans? As in Homo sapiens sapiens? Neanderthal Man, Hom Erectus never had any "complex" tools?


SC: I also note your caveat here - "so far". If evolution permits intelligent species simillar but different to ourselves to arise in the future (as per you "so far" caveat), I see absolutely no reason to suppose that intelligent species (different to but not entirely unlike humans) could not also have arisen in the past (along an entirely separate lineage to our own) and become extinct. You simply cannot use the fossil record as proof against such a conjecture since the fossil record is far from complete.


Byrd: You haven't defined "intelligence" nor the capabilities of such a species.


SC: I am talking about a species that has similar (though not identical) physiology, with intelligence comparable to early man and with language.


Byrd: they didn't build cities here on land in the Americas or leave footprints 1.3 million years ago.


SC: Just how much do you think would remain of our civilisation after 10,000 years let alone 1.3 million? Zilch!

www.youtube.com...

Regards,

Scott Creighton



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by Scott Creighton
reply to post by Kandinsky
 

Hello Kandinsky,


Kandinsky: I was cautiously trying to work out your view on the OP's question. Other than a cursory acknowledgment of the 40ky, your replies have somehow eluded any reference to the footprints or their age.


SC: As I said - I go with the evidence and more specifically the scientific analysis of that evidence. If that science is carried out with due care and dilligence and the results are not later fudged by the scientist then I have to accept the date. If the science (not the scientist) says unequivocally 1.3 million years then why shouldn't that date be correct? If we are to then conclude that the science must be wrong then we have to throw out all past findings and conclusions based on that flawed scientific rigour.

In this particular example the science says one thing (1.3 million yrs) but the evolutionary/historical model we have constructed for ourselves forces us to conclude it must be flawed. Why not trust the science? Why not conclude that the evolutionary/historical model we have constructed might actually be flawed? As I have previously said - the present consensus view of evolution has effectively placed a straight-jacket over itself. You are asking me to answer a question that science itself cannot provide a definitive answer to. Don't you consider that a tad unfair?


Kandinsky: Would a polyphylogenetic model support the 1.3million ya or the 40ka conclusion?


SC: Polyphylogentic evolution is not about accepting one date over another but a means through which we can make sense of what are otherwise regarded as 'anomalous artefacts' and, of course, maintaining the integrity of the scientific method.

That such artefacts are regarded as anomalous is done simply by virtue of the fact that they do not fit into the cosy, linear evolutionary path that the prevailing monophylogentic evolution model insists they must. Some of these artefacts are forced to fit into the model - square peg in a round hole. Ultimately this only serves to construct a history of our past that is severely wanting and fundamentally flawed.

Regards,

Scott Creighton


[edit on 27/5/2009 by Scott Creighton]


Quite so Scott.

If i may be so bold...

To simplify matters a little, i see Scotts reasoning to be on par as it were.

In essence (if i read between the lines correctly) what Scott is saying, and ONLY saying is that:

Science cannot have it both ways!

Either the science (not scientists) and the scientific process of examination is correct...or it isn't.

If the testing procedures are tried and true, and countless 'conventional' archeaological discoveries have been dated and validated following these procedures and processes, how is it then logical to dismiss the very same procedures and processes as flawed, simply because the find data does not fit the accepted models?

It's at best bad science, and worst is a falsification of the data to fit dogma.

Whichever it is, it's subtracting from the sum of knowledge, not adding to it, which defeats the whole object of digging for the past, surely?

Are there not any independents out there who do not rely on grants or funding from 'vested interests'? Until there is enough, we will always bury the truth that doesn't fit 'their' paradigms (pun intended).

Anyway, nice work Scott...and don't let the buggers get you down.



[edit on 14/6/2009 by spikey]



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 10:45 AM
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What has been missed is the landing site from Mars from which our ancestors came from. This is the missing link that most will not agree upon. Yes man made cities crumble after thousands of years, but bones and fossils can be millions of years old and still are in tact.

My contention is the landing site on Earth from inhabitants from Mars is a reality and not a theory. Their technology was way beyond ours today and they knew how to preserve dimensional images and store information for mankind on Earth to be able to find and assimulate in the future that are over one million years old. Well the future is now and these clues will be released December 2012 and this will flip the world upsidedown from traditional thinking and from where man originated.

The Gate Keepers hold one key and the other key has been hidden from mankind until now.


[edit on 14-6-2009 by amari]



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 11:02 AM
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I wonder if the passing Martians dropped something and it 'fell from the sky.' What if none other than Imhotep had found it and used the 'ancient and forbidden knowledge' in his Giza designs? Unless it can be proven that this didn't happen it remains 'possible'!



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by Kandinsky
I wonder if the passing Martians dropped something and it 'fell from the sky.' What if none other than Imhotep had found it and used the 'ancient and forbidden knowledge' in his Giza designs? Unless it can be proven that this didn't happen it remains 'possible'!


Who or what you call Martians landed inside the boundaries of what is known today as The United States Of America 1.2 million years ago. They did not need to drop a probe on Earth when they physically could land on Earth and permanently settle.



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by amari
 



Who or what you call Martians landed inside the boundaries of what is known today as The United States Of America 1.2 million years ago. They did not need to drop a probe on Earth when they physically could land on Earth and permanently settle.


I'm afraid I was being satirical about people believing in knowledge 'falling from the sky


I read your earlier posts regarding America being populated by Martians 1.3million years ago. That truly would be a parallel evolution! What you describe is really just a fantasy as it's based on no more than wishful thinking. It may be true, after all anything's 'possible' apparently. The point is, true or not, there isn't any evidence whatsoever to support the contention so it remains a fantasy.

Mars has been without an atmosphere for an estimated 4 billion years. A humanoid life form (lungs, central nervous system, upright, bipedal etc) that could survive there wouldn't be able to survive here and vice versa.

If you like these ideas about culture and humanity, I recommend a book by C J Cherryh called Sunfall. I've read it probably 15 times. Each chapter tells a story from one of the major cities on Earth as the sun is growing dimmer. It's sci-fi/fantasy with very deep undertones.



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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My circa dial rhythm, and of many people I know, is 24 hours and 45 minutes. And it just happens so that Martian day lasts that much.
I have no explanation for that. Anyway, I have a big problem adapting to 24 hours day. It just doesn't resonate right.

That is a fact. So the theory that Martians landed and settled on Earth does make sense despite lack of evidence we have been "used" to accept.



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 

Hello Kandinsky,


Kandinsky: I'm afraid I was being satirical about people believing in knowledge 'falling from the sky'


SC:Satirical? More like sarcastic - lowest form of wit, highest form of insanity.

This is entirely OT but since you raise this issue in such a saracstic manner, I think I deserve the right to respond.

So, let us be absolutely clear about this "knowledge falling from the sky".

The Ancient Egyptian Building Texts carved into the the Temple of Horus at Edfu tell us that the AE temples were designed according to architectural plans contained within a codex that supposedly came from the heavens at Saqqara in the days of Imhotep.

Does this literally mean some codex tumbled from the heavens and landed at Imhotep's back door? No, it does not. A plan that came from the heavens may simply refer to a plan that was based upon the stars in the heavens, thereby, a plan that came from the heavens. The heavens is the upper realm (upper Egypt). By placing a "copy" of the heavens (i.e. the stars in the form of pyramids) on the ground (i.e. lower Egypt) the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt is completed.

Hope we're now clear on that. Now, back to the topic at hand.

Regards,

Scott Creighton



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by DangerDeath
 


My circa dial rhythm, and of many people I know, is 24 hours and 45 minutes. And it just happens so that Martian day lasts that much.


By 'circa dial' do you mean circadian? How exactly did you work out the extra 45 minutes? Have you heard of jetlag? This happens when we travel across different time zones faster than our body clocks can adapt to. It's dictated by the hypothalamus. This little timekeeper gets all mixed up temporarily...the important thing is that it adapts to the new time. Each morning at first light, our internal clocks get reset. It enables us to adapt to seasons and new timezones.

If your potentially Martian ancestry doesn't allow for adaptation to the Earth's seasons, I'm at a loss for any practical advice. I guess you can take the guy out of Mars but you can't take Mars out of the guy



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


Circadian, yes.

Well, I always push for more when it comes to go to sleep. It is about less than an hour that I can push every day. I am not traveling at all. Half of the time I sleep at daytime because of that. But there is a push of about 45 minutes. The 24 hour day is too short for my biorhythm.

And, as I said, I am not the only one who has noticed that about myself.

TAke a look at this.

en.wikipedia.org...-hour_day



The myth of the 25-hour day Early investigators determined the human circadian period to be 25 hours or more. They went to great lengths to shield subjects from time cues and daylight, but they were not aware of the effects of indoor electric lights. The subjects were allowed to turn on light when they were awake and to turn it off when they wanted to sleep. Electric light in the evening delayed their circadian phase. These results became well known.[20]


So, "electric light" is the culprit


I must say, I don't believe this "science".

Now they put it like this:



Modern research under very controlled conditions has shown the human period for adults to be just slightly longer than 24 hours on average. Czeisler et al at Harvard found the range for normal, healthy adults of all ages to be quite narrow: 24 hours and 11 minutes ± 16 minutes. The "clock" resets itself daily to the 24-hour cycle of the earth's rotation.[20]


The clock resets????

How? Why?



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


You have been lead to believe that Mars has never had a breathable atmosphere similar to Earth's. You are correct it remains a fantasy that man originated from Mars.

The fantasy will become reality soon and it will be 3 1/2 years before the information that humanoids did land on Earth from Mars and where exactly they landed first on this planet.



[edit on 14-6-2009 by amari]



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 03:58 PM
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Could it be that the Martian migration to the Americas gave rise to the Ancient Egyptian message of cataclysms? Perhaps a willful band of maverick Martians took exception to the ruler's paradigm and fled across to the African landmass? Although modest and shy, they couldn't take the chance of being found out. They took to using stone tools and abandoned technology as they went undercover with our ancestors. In a singular act of defiance they left a 3D model of the Giza Pyramids and simply hoped that their message would span the ages...



posted on Jun, 14 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


Now you are on to something the ancients from Mars possessed God like powers because it is evident from what they left behind for humanity to find. Some say the pyramids are at least 10,000 to 30,000 years old I say guess again.

Your question might be why has this information not been brought out to the public by now? There has been a few attempts but like the Rosswell crash it has been covered up by the powers that be.

One of my relatives that lived to 92 years of age spend forty years off and on in the dessert in the U.S. in search of their dreams and collected tons upon tons of rocks this is no exageration.

You might have tried to be some what funny in your thought process but your closer then you think.


[edit on 14-6-2009 by amari]



posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by amari
 


Let me guess, the so called “Noah’s Ark” was really an interplanetary craft that carried cryogenically frozen samples of plant and animal life from Mars to preserve them from a catastrophe that destroyed all other life and evidence there of on Mars. The entire story was misinterpreted over the ages into being a wooden ship that carried 2 of every animal due to a global flood. The 40 Days and 40 nights riding on the flood was actually a time period that did not convey in the translations of the stories, and the flood was actually the traveling in space. The sending out of the dove was actually the sending out of automated probes to make sure the trajectory had remained correct.

I am sorry for the sarcastic tone but this seems to be the direction the OT is starting to take from the discussion of the foot print being older that the 40K timeframe the science has shown.



posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by AlienCarnage
 


I was given the information years ago about the figure 1.2 million years ago not 1.3 million years being that man walked upon the Americas but that is close enough. The footprint in Mexico is a tremendous find and many more incredible finds will be released soon to the world about mankinds imprints in history stored in the Americas.

Everyone has their opinion of how mankind started and the Bible has it's story of mankinds beginnings and about the duration of The Great Flood being 40 days and 40 nights. You have your story on how life from Mars came riding in on an Ark with probes a blazing.

When it is all said and done the visual proof is coming soon about the geometric dimensional presence of these Super Ancient Beings of all races human and not so human beings landing on this planet Earth. ^Y^



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