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On Memorial Day, Honoring Military Service and Sacrifice

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posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by sos37
What I believe is that sometimes it is necessary to break the rules (laws) in order to save the lives of U.S. citizens - even if that means torturing your precious detainees in Gitmo. Those people aren't exactly there because if their affiliation to the Boy Scouts.

First of all it is fact that you can get information without torture.
and often victims of torture lie and just tell you what you want to hear

Those people aren't there for being boy scouts?
Oh ok, so why are they there?
Oh ya, we don't know because they had no fair trial.
Leave secret prisons for the Nazis bud.


Originally posted by sos37
I realize that wars are going to happen and lives are going to be lost regardless. But if we can do something to save the lives of OUR citizens and our allies, then dammit, that's what should be done.

Exactly!
There is terroism most because of foreign policy.
and we should cut the snake's head right?

I'm al for it! I'm glad we agree.


Originally posted by sos37
OUR citizens. OUR allies. OUR Constitution, first. I side with your neighbor. I don't understand why you would replace "Old Glory" with a flag of the earth either. You served the military of OUR country to uphold OUR constitution. When you fly our nation's flag you are essentially flying a copy of our nation's constitution.


I realize you aren't talking to me but i'll respond anyhow.

How can you support illegal wars but be under the assumption that you are a constitutionalist?

How can you say sometimes we have to break the law but then consider yourself a constitutionalist?

There's an excellent series of videos here on ATS Media and how they lied to us regarding the Iraqi war.
If you watched it, or if you are aware of the lies, how can you now still consider them as your enemy?

Do you consider yourself a patriot fighting a war that is bankrupting your country but making individuals richer?
I don't think Thomas Jefferson would think so.

Ever heard of this: "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy?"

Ever heard of that quote?

sos37, you are a disinfo agent!
You are not a patriot, you support Nazism!

[edit on 26-5-2009 by ModernAcademia]




posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by grover
I am sure you support the troops by having a bumper sticker on your car and a little flag on the antenna and that is about it.

I am currently doing volunteer work at my local DAV chapter and up at our local VA hospital...

And you?


Oh yay, that makes you a stellar American, sir.


What am I doing? I'm working the private sector to the tune of 60 hours per week. I'm paying my taxes on a regular basis which goes to fund the military and other facets of U.S. government. When I see men in uniform out and about I stop them and shake their hands thanking them for their service.

Does that make me less of an American because I don't volunteer at the same organizations that you do?

Oh, and the AMERICAN flag proudly flew outside my house the last three days.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by sos37
 


Yeah but some of them are probably the right age to join the boy scouts. www.nytimes.com... torture is barbaric,those who practice it,practice in barabrism.Vile.And don't give me *well the terrorists do worse* it sounds like the sort of justification for an act a 10 year old would come up with.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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Well, thank you 2 for ruining a thread dedicated to the troops. Why can't you keep the personal tripe out of it for one event?



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


I'm not going to address the parts of your post that refer to an "illegal war" because a majority of Congress voted in favor of that war and if that war truly were illegal then Congress would not continue to pass budgets that okay money for that war.

Tyranny and oppression are the default behaviors of those in power. That is why we have checks and balances. Right now, there is no balance in our government because of a near-filibuster proof majority in Congress and a liberal president. And what we're seeing lately are travesties against the Constitution. Now if I were against the Constitution, as you say, I would side with the extreme left which is currently in power. One example - The left seeks to re-instate the "Fairness Doctrine", a clear example of tyranny and oppression if there was one! Do I support them? No!

As for supporting Nazism? Give me a break! I most certainly do not.




[edit on 26-5-2009 by sos37]



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:21 AM
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No it doesn't make you less of an American.

I was just curious what such a huge patriot as you does to support our troops...

A salute and a handshake... how nice.

How about writing your congressperson urging them to make sure that the VA and specifically the VA hospitals are fully funded...

How about urging congress to make sure that they are used as a last resort and not a first choice...

How about making sure that when they are sent into battle they aren't sent in on trumped up and bogus selling points... that they are actually bleeding and dying for a valid reason not so some small little man can say he finished what his father started...

How about any number of things that actually mean something...

I am a disabled veteran and proud of it... and while I did not injure myself in wartime I still did so following orders... and I just had a total knee replacement as a result of those injuries and what do I do up at the local VA hospital?

I push veterans around who cannot do it themselves.

And it pisses me off to hear jackasses make out that they are such great patriots all while accusing others who disagree with them of hating their country... of wishing it harm... such an ignorant and arrogant attitude is the antithesis of the ideal that made this country what it is today.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by sos37
 


Yeah but some of them are probably the right age to join the boy scouts. www.nytimes.com... torture is barbaric,those who practice it,practice in barabrism.Vile.And don't give me *well the terrorists do worse* it sounds like the sort of justification for an act a 10 year old would come up with.


I don't care if it's barbaric or not. My concern - will it save American lives in the end and can it be done without actually killing the person being tortured? I'm not so hell-bent on the idea that I agree with trading the life of one man for another simply because that man happens to be an American. Remember, we're talking about TORTURE, not execution.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by grover

And it pisses me off to hear jackasses make out that they are such great patriots all while accusing others who disagree with them of hating their country... of wishing it harm... such an ignorant and arrogant attitude is the antithesis of the ideal that made this country what it is today.



And it pisses me off to hear jackasses who constantly rail against an entire political party just because that party doesn't stand for what they believe in. Nevermind that there are plenty of good men and women serving our country who happen to believe in conservative ideals. To you, they must be wrong or uneducated.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


I regret my part in this digression that was not my intent for this thread... but mind you I was personally attacked by sos37.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by grover
reply to post by intrepid
 


I regret my part in this digression that was not my intent for this thread... but mind you I was personally attacked by sos37.


I know. It ends now sos. Let this topic continue.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by sos37
 

I have consistently said that there are plenty of good and decent Republicans and conservatives out there and while I may disagree with them I can respect them... I have also consistently said that my objection is to the extremists who have taken over the party.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:30 AM
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reply to post by grover
 


You weren't attacked. I simply pointed out the hypocracy of this post as opposed to where it came from.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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I feel the need to reiterate this from the OP:


a person can be a truly devoted American and patriot, can love their nation and wish it well, can at the end of the day believe in the same ideals as their political polar opposite... regardless of political inclinations. We can express our political opinions regardless and still be good citizens.

This is what our brave men and women have served, fought and died for and it does them a grave disservice when we forget that no one side has a monopoly on love of country and patriotism... we as a nation is greater, more expansive and open than that narrowness of vision.

Honor them by putting aside petty ideological differences and be first and foremost good Americans and respect even those who disagree with you because if we ever lose that essential freedom, we will have lost the soul of our nation.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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sos37, I would like to ask you a question.

Let's say personA sees his country being bankrupted by an immoral war that was sold us based on lies. PersonA then tries his best to spread the message that this is wrong. PersonA sees that his country is being known as the torturers of this century with war-mongerers as elected officials.
PersonA does his best to spread the message of this reality, maybe join anti-war protests and do whatever he can.

Then there's PersonB, this person believes whatever lies are sold to him, or not. But regardless fights this "war" because he believes it's his patriotic duty. Once he leaves for Iraq he leaves behind a country being attacked from within. Tent cities emerge, bailouts to friends in Billions, global animosity over his country, govt. trying to take over ownership of everything to soil. After seeing all of this he still believes he made the right choice.

Tell me who's the truer patriot?
PersonA or PersonB?


Originally posted by sos37
Remember, we're talking about TORTURE, not execution.

No we are talking about Both!
We are talking about immoral torture and immoral wars.


Intrepid, I understand thay this thread isn't taking the direction some would have liked, but at the same time I don't believe this is off-topic either.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by ModernAcademia]



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


To answer your question - Person B is the truer patriot. Without question.

Person B enrolls in our military. They know that this means they could be shipped out at any time to a conflict which could mean loss of life or limb. They have chosen one of the most honorable professions in this country - to uphold our nation's constitution. Whether or not they agree with what's going on, they still go and do their duty. That makes them a soldier and a patriot truly dedicated to their country.

As for Person A, where are they getting their information? The media? Second-hand? How do they know that their conclusions are all justified on fact? Person A may or may not have all of the information needed to make an informed decision. Person A to me is running on part fact, part emotion - that emotion very possibly driven by political affiliation.

Does that make sense? Can you at least see where I'm coming from?



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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There are many ways of loving your country and being a patriot without serving so both A and B...

While B serves, he also has the whole weight of the military code of justice breathing down his neck should he disobey... he may have enlisted willingly but once in he is essentially owned by the military... in basic they drill that knowledge into you... so once in freedom of choice is extremely limited.

But the person who sees what is happening and objects and tries to enlighten people to the internal dangers is no less of a patriot... love of country is not just martial...

I will say this though... a large number of people who enlist don't do it from patriotism... they need a job or the education etc... and to think otherwise is to delude yourself.

That doesn't make their service any less valuable though.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by sos37
 


I think you got it reversed, it's the soldier that is acting on emotion and nothing else.

you are merely commenting on risk taking vs. using your brain
and since risk taking is risking your life that's truer patriotism.

War is Slavery right now because it's financed on FIAT.

It's funny how patriots like you don't even find it embarrasing that communists own you. China owns U.S.A!
Do you know how much money you owe them?

Indiviuals get rich of your 'patriotism', and both your family and great great grandchildren have to pay for it with perpetual debt.

What a life man, you need to get free from the Matrix.

I have one last question for you sos37
What if you had proof and completely believed that the enemy is a domestic one and found out terroism was a lie that mobsters living in govt. took over the country.

What would you do?
And at that point who would you support, personA or personB?

[edit on 26-5-2009 by ModernAcademia]



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by grover
 


If person A is doing it for the right reason (because they don't want to see their country turned into a third-world cesspool of tyranny) then I agree, that makes them a patriot as much as person B.



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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As of right now, the personal crap stops.

If you have nothing other than "snipe at each other" crap to offer, don't post.

We are attempting to memorialize the troops of many nations who didn't come home, or were changed forever...

*snip*

Removed what may have been, in hindsight, an offensive remark, I know better...If I offended I offer my most humble and heartfelt apologies.

[edit on 5/26/2009 by seagull]



posted on May, 26 2009 @ 03:31 PM
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Patriotism;


: love for or devotion to one's country


www.merriam-webster.com...



Patriotism is defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country.



Scholar J. Peter Euben writes that for the Greek philosopher Socrates, "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be."[6]


en.wikipedia.org...

Patriotism has nothing at all to do with warmongers, unjust wars, or crooked politicians, It is simply love and devotion to your country.

Yes i do hate war and wish that another would never have to be fought, and yes i do say God bless the soldiers that have fought them. Because i am free to say that and whatever else i choose to, due to the fact that they have fought wars to give me and protect my freedom to do just that


Our military personell are not the ones that create the wars, nor do they always agree with them, however they serve their country because they are loyal to it, which does not constitute being loyal to a government, politician, or corporation.

While there may be those that serve only to build a carreer or receive money for college, there are still those that serve out of love for their country, out of a desire to keep their country and countrymen safe, a desire to keep in tact the freedoms that their country posseses. Regardless of the reasons behind their service they all do it willingly with the knowledge that they may never return home to their families, or may return disabled, and most changed for ever by what they have seen and had to do.

For this and much more they will always have my graditude and respect. And i'm sorry but i think that it's a disgusting shame that there are those that would come on to this thread that was intended to honor these people and demean what they have done, insult those that honor them, and criticize them for using the free speech that they helped to defend. If some felt the need to say certain things a little decorum and respect could have been shown, it's easy to start your own thread.


And yes God bless those that fight for the ideals that they believe in, lest we be left with armies full of nothing but mercenaries that have no morals and ideals to fight for, but only the promise of wealth after they've done their job.


Similarly, I would say, "America, with all your faults, I love you still, My Country." And to all who proved and continue to prove their patriotism in blood to establish and preserve our freedom, I give thanks with the deepest gratitude and appreciation. May we honor this legacy and pass it on to our children and others.


www.tennessean.com...

Edit for spelling error

[edit on 5/26/2009 by chise61]




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