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Freemasons - Another child fingerprinting scam/fair

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posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 04:39 PM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 

Many Lodge do help out families. There are many charities, this is just one of them. It is to assist law enforcement in the recovery. Any opinion that thinks this is wrong, is ill-conceived.




posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Money and time that would be much better spent in community out-reach work that actually targeted those that need help and support to be better parents.


Hmmm. Worthy activities indeed, but it's a little naive to think that a Masonic body would have either the expertise or mandate to engage in said community outreach and education so, as far as I see it, they are simply doing what they can where they can.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 04:50 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason
Many Lodge do help out families. There are many charities, this is just one of them. It is to assist law enforcement in the recovery. Any opinion that thinks this is wrong, is ill-conceived.


I didn't say it was wrong, but to use your own phrasing, I do think it is ill-conceived.


Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2005 --
• 31% were killed by fathers
• 29% were killed by mothers
• 23% were killed by male acquaintances
• 7% were killed by other relatives
• 3% were killed by strangers


www.ojp.usdoj.gov...


For the vast majority of child victimizers in State prison, the victim was someone they knew before the crime:
A third had committed their crime against their own child
About half had a relationship with the victim as a friend, acquaintance, or relative other than offspring
About 1 in 7 reported the victim to have been a stranger to them.



victim Family Acquaintance Stranger Unknown
Total ... 100.0% ... 100.0% ... 100.0% ... 100.0%
Less than
1 year .... 31.2 ........ 4.8 ........... 1.4 ............ 6.9
1-4 ........ 36.3 ...... 17.0 ........... 6.4 ............ 9.9
5-14 ...... 22.6 ...... 20.6 .......... 25.0 .......... 21.0
15-17 ...... 9.95 ...... 7.6 .......... 67.3 .......... 62.3
number 10,795 ... 13,060 ....... 4,006 ....... 9,092
Source: FBI Supplementary Homicide Reports, 1976-94



www.geocities.com...

Also, bear in mind, when it comes to exactly, what we are talking about recovering that,


Inmates who victimized children were less likely than other inmates to have a prior criminal record--nearly a third of child-victimizers had never been arrested prior to the current offense, compared to less than 20% of those who victimized adults.


www.geocities.com...

I do not contend that we should not extend every single effort to locate a child that has gone missing. If a child goes missing from a community, that community, in conjunction with law enforcement (and other emergency services) should extend all available resources to locate that child.

All you are doing is providing a kit that will aid in the identification of a body in the highly unlikely event that that child is abducted by a stranger. As I said, a waste of time and money. I would hazard that the parents that take advantage of this programme love and care for their children. They will have an up to date picture, they will have items around the house that have their childs prints on them, they will be able to provide a sample of their own DNA for comparison, and be able to provide dental records. They will also notice that their child is missing and react quickly to that.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 04:53 AM
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Originally posted by Roark
Hmmm. Worthy activities indeed, but it's a little naive to think that a Masonic body would have either the expertise or mandate to engage in said community outreach and education so, as far as I see it, they are simply doing what they can where they can.


What expertise and mandate do you have to gather cheek swabs, finger prints etc? That is a silly argument, or rather an excuse not a reason. Handing out free condoms would be infinitely more useful, I'm sure you can do that.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by KilgoreTrout]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


I do NOT want to see the threads that would come up from Masons handing out condoms.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 05:29 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Thanks for providing the actual stats to something I only sensed.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 05:50 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


how much are kids worth these days? ( the ones that are still breathing I mean)

If only one of the children that used this program, and was abducted and held in another state gets found because of this kit, is it not worth it. If you don't think so ask the parent that belongs to that kid.

I agree that there are probably other things that would be better uses of time, but nobody has suggested anything besides handing out rubbers. And to use the phrase from the OP of this thread, who wants stinky old masons giving them condoms?



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 06:43 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Parental vs stranger abduction is a canard in a discussion about whether or not MasoniChIP (or any similar program) has any value. Whether the kid is snatched by Dad or someone else, the fact is that the kid was snatched and the authorities aren't going to be searching with less vigour just because Dada was the snatcher.

How is having a myriad of identifying information ready to go if the kid ever disappears for whatever reason a waste of time?



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The vast majority of children who die as a result of violent crime do so in their own homes, at the hands of their Mummy's and Daddy's.


MasoniChIP is aimed at finding lost and abducted children. Unless you're advocating removing children from the parental home as a statistical preventative against patricide or matricide, this line of argument is turning into a thread derail.


Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
This programme, however well intentioned, is no more that a pacifier or placebo, it is definately a waste of time and money in my eyes.


You're welcome to your opinion. But then what do you think of the Amber Alert programme? Similar waste of time? And why?


Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Money and time that would be much better spent in community out-reach work that actually targeted those that need help and support to be better parents.


You do realise that you're comparing apples and oranges, don't you?



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

victim Family Acquaintance Stranger Unknown
Total ... 100.0% ... 100.0% ... 100.0% ... 100.0%
Less than
1 year .... 31.2 ........ 4.8 ........... 1.4 ............ 6.9
1-4 ........ 36.3 ...... 17.0 ........... 6.4 ............ 9.9
5-14 ...... 22.6 ...... 20.6 .......... 25.0 .......... 21.0
15-17 ...... 9.95 ...... 7.6 .......... 67.3 .......... 62.3
number 10,795 ... 13,060 ....... 4,006 ....... 9,092
Source: FBI Supplementary Homicide Reports, 1976-94



www.geocities.com...


As I stated previously, most of us are aware of the preponderence of non-stranger abductions in relation to other types of abduction but this does not reduce the fact that 100% of abducted children are abducted. Whether or not the child is abducted by a parent/guardian or a complete stranger the information is still employed in the same manner: The data is distributed by the parents to the Amber Alert System.


I do not contend that we should not extend every single effort to locate a child that has gone missing. If a child goes missing from a community, that community, in conjunction with law enforcement (and other emergency services) should extend all available resources to locate that child.


Agreed, and I would think that the efforts of this program fall under 'every single effort'.


All you are doing is providing a kit that will aid in the identification of a body in the highly unlikely event that that child is abducted by a stranger. As I said, a waste of time and money. I would hazard that the parents that take advantage of this programme love and care for their children. They will have an up to date picture, they will have items around the house that have their childs prints on them, they will be able to provide a sample of their own DNA for comparison, and be able to provide dental records. They will also notice that their child is missing and react quickly to that.


These are all valid assumptions, yet they are still assumptions, there are always exceptions to the rule. However, with the kit that they have previously prepared they will have all the information that they may need to pass to authorities if the time ever comes.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 

How is it ill-conceived? It does exactly what it says. It's an ID program, not a protection or prevention program. We don't care about who takes the child, but only that the child is missing/abducted and we are trying to assist in the recovery.

In addition to the packet given to the parents, we give parents pamphlets about child safety and so on.

Instead of them having to find all that stuff though, they will now have a kit already put together with a CD that can get automatically uploaded into Amber Alert. Every second, minute, and hour counts.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 

How hard is it to take a swab and wipe it on the inside of a cheek and then stick it into a sterile container? The same for finger prints? I know the American Dental Association assists this program (I am trying to get Dentists to come to the events to do dental imprints).



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 02:43 AM
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been busy but hey, I started this tread HELLO lol


thought this would be an interesting read...and the reasoning behind your scam and the people that get bonus exempts from it..

it needs updating though to 2009

but keep it bookmarked to keep tabs people:

www.taxexemptworld.com...



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 03:32 AM
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reply to post by suzque66
 


I'm sorry, I don't seem to grab your point. It's a list of tax exempt/non-profit organizations, yes?
The funds generate for Masonry itself is generated by it's members, while it's charity events are driven through both it's members and donations by the public.
They still pay taxes individually, and generally pay taxes on the land the buildings rest on and any relevant fees associated.

Masonry is a non-profit organization, meaning it's not a business of any kind, and is not seeking to turn a active profit. As such, it's tax exempt.

Other non-profit/ tax exempt organizations are the Daughters of the American Revolution, Loaves and Fishes, The Fraternal Order of Police, the Elks Club, and the Oddfellows.

[edit on 6-6-2009 by RuneSpider]



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 05:51 AM
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reply to post by RuneSpider
 


So we're supposed to be tax evaders, are we? (I have her on ignore since her earlier high-attitude, no-fact screed) This is getting ridiculous. Did this latest angle of attack come from Alex Jones too? Sheesh!



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by suzque66
 

What do you have against tax exemption? Our members pay taxes, we have to pay property taxes on our buildings, and so on. All money is given to charity. No one gets benefits from this.

There are some paid positions in the Freemasons (ie the Secretary, Treasurer, and Worshipful Master). Combined the Treasurer and Secretary are paid $600 and the Worshipful Master is paid $600. Not the high paying job everyone thinks it is. For our dinners we have with every meeting the Brother must pay $5. When we have an event where we are doing community service no one is paid. Rune gives a good definition of what a tax exempt organization is.

Even from your list, there are thousands of tax exempt organizations. We're not exclusive in this. We still have to file forms every year.

You have yet to show how it is a scam.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

To be frank, I'm not sure what her point is, she just linked to the main page.
www.taxexemptworld.com...
It could be she is pointing out income versus assets, however that information is only available with membership or donation.

As for putting her on ignore, he's one of my favorite quotes:


Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Yes, even the bloody nitwits.


It comes from the Desiderata, with the last part tacked on by Terry Pratchett. Not meaning this as an offense to the OP, of course, but pointing out that you have to listen to people regardless of their points view, in order to understand why they hold them.
And, if you can understand why they hold them, you can understand how to change them.

[edit on 7-6-2009 by RuneSpider]



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by RuneSpider
 


Suze is trollling for a response as opposed to looking for anything that approaches enlightenment. The likes of her aren't looking for truth so much as validation of their position.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


Y'ever tried arguing to a wall?
It's an idea my dad uses, on occasion. The wall is something that will not be changed, no matter what you do or say.
However, in arguing with it, you can come up with better responses, and a better understanding of your viewpoint.
And, since my brain tends to get rid of information quickly, it helps me keep it fresh in mind.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 11:54 PM
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reply to post by RuneSpider
 

You know, after dealing with the likes of her I could probably go to Drill Sergeant school. There you have to yell at rocks for hours in preparation for dealing with Privates.



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 02:09 AM
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I want it clear, I'm not using the reference as a slight against the OP, I meant it simply that she has her opinion, and will not likely be changing it.



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