@OP
You made a few mistakes in your thinking though.
1. You assume there are other intelligent life in your argument. (Bear in mind I'm not saying there isn't)
2. You assume "insert your favourite God figure here" has not appeared to these aliens.
3. You assume these aliens are not followers of "insert your favourite God figure here"
[edit on 24-5-2009 by postmeme]
Also there are some things which you state as fact that I've never read about or heard of before.
For example, I've never heard of Buddha being crucified, dying & resurrecting. He supposedly died from old age or food poisoning (pork or mushrooms
depending on who's telling).
[edit on 24-5-2009 by postmeme]
I don't get why part II is relevant to your argument. Even if the stories are similar, it does not prove or disprove anything.
Its like the story of the blind men touching the elephant. The elephant is different for everyone. Differing accounts does not mean the elephant does
not exist. Only that we lack the "sight" to see it as it is.
[edit on 24-5-2009 by postmeme]
Proof that Jesus and all Religions are False, page 2
reply posted on 24-5-2009 @ 11:46 AM by babloyi
reply to post by Neon Haze
Hey Neon!
While the first part of your OP may be valid (although I have not looked in-depth at the math), you yourself admit that an argument ad populum is meaningless.
As for the second part, from the way you wrote, I'd have hoped you would have done more research. That stuff seems generic copy-paste (forgive me if I'm wrong, but that is what it seems), instead of your own research and work. I say this because so much of it is so obviously wrong, that if you had actually researched it, you would not be believing it.
Some minor examples:
While the whole concept of Horus spans thousands of years, so there isn't really one specific character that can be discussed, Horus was not born of a virgin. He was born of Isis, wife of Osiris.
I've never heard of him walking on water (he may have, after all, he was a God, but I've seen no written record of such a thing). He did drive a boat on water, but that is hardly the same thing.
Who (and where) is Horus called a "Messiah"? He was the son of Osiris, so it
is nothing odd for him to have been called the "Son of God".
As for Mithra, where did you get this information that he was born of a virgin? As I understand it, Ahura Mazda brought him forth from a solid rock.
As for Krishna, where did you find that his father Vesudeva was a carpenter? All I see is that they (both his father and mother) were imprisoned. His mother certainly wasn't a virgin (she had 8 other sons). Perhaps you could claim the similarity that Krishna was born through "mental impregnation" by his father Vesudeva into his mother, and this could be considered a similarity to Jesus (in a vague way), except according to Hinduism, most "ascended beings" could do this sort of thing at the time, so it wasn't anything too special.
Now for Buddha: once again, his mother was definitely not a virgin (she had been married to Buddha's father for some 20 years before he was born). There is a story of how she dreamed she had been pierced by an elephant on the night that Buddha was conceived, but there is no indication of any sort of immaculate conception.
Also, where did you get that story of "Sakya Buddha" (why do you call him "Sakya" there, and nowhere else? Do you deem his ethnicity significant?) being dead and gone to hell for 3 days and then coming back?
Yes, he ascended to Nirvana (which Buddhists will adamantly tell you is nothing like the western concept of "Heaven"), but so can all other people (before and after Buddha).
Interesting read nonetheless! I have no intention of belittling you. I'd be very curious as to the sources for some of those things (and hence my post was interspersed with questions). Thanks in advance!
PS: I don't believe Jesus to be a deity, so I don't really have any personal stake in this (aside from advancement of the truth and rejection of falsehoods, of course).
[edit on 24-5-2009 by babloyi]
Hey Neon!
While the first part of your OP may be valid (although I have not looked in-depth at the math), you yourself admit that an argument ad populum is meaningless.
As for the second part, from the way you wrote, I'd have hoped you would have done more research. That stuff seems generic copy-paste (forgive me if I'm wrong, but that is what it seems), instead of your own research and work. I say this because so much of it is so obviously wrong, that if you had actually researched it, you would not be believing it.
Some minor examples:
While the whole concept of Horus spans thousands of years, so there isn't really one specific character that can be discussed, Horus was not born of a virgin. He was born of Isis, wife of Osiris.
I've never heard of him walking on water (he may have, after all, he was a God, but I've seen no written record of such a thing). He did drive a boat on water, but that is hardly the same thing.
Who (and where) is Horus called a "Messiah"? He was the son of Osiris, so it
is nothing odd for him to have been called the "Son of God".
As for Mithra, where did you get this information that he was born of a virgin? As I understand it, Ahura Mazda brought him forth from a solid rock.
As for Krishna, where did you find that his father Vesudeva was a carpenter? All I see is that they (both his father and mother) were imprisoned. His mother certainly wasn't a virgin (she had 8 other sons). Perhaps you could claim the similarity that Krishna was born through "mental impregnation" by his father Vesudeva into his mother, and this could be considered a similarity to Jesus (in a vague way), except according to Hinduism, most "ascended beings" could do this sort of thing at the time, so it wasn't anything too special.
Now for Buddha: once again, his mother was definitely not a virgin (she had been married to Buddha's father for some 20 years before he was born). There is a story of how she dreamed she had been pierced by an elephant on the night that Buddha was conceived, but there is no indication of any sort of immaculate conception.
Also, where did you get that story of "Sakya Buddha" (why do you call him "Sakya" there, and nowhere else? Do you deem his ethnicity significant?) being dead and gone to hell for 3 days and then coming back?
Yes, he ascended to Nirvana (which Buddhists will adamantly tell you is nothing like the western concept of "Heaven"), but so can all other people (before and after Buddha).
Interesting read nonetheless! I have no intention of belittling you. I'd be very curious as to the sources for some of those things (and hence my post was interspersed with questions). Thanks in advance!
PS: I don't believe Jesus to be a deity, so I don't really have any personal stake in this (aside from advancement of the truth and rejection of falsehoods, of course).
[edit on 24-5-2009 by babloyi]
reply posted on 24-5-2009 @ 11:55 AM by watchtheashes
Those other stories were all this guy. The star is actually in the sky. Lending this credibility beyond imagination. It's more like a UFO.
www.share-international.org...
Except he's all the other ones and not Christ.
www.share-international.org...
Except he's all the other ones and not Christ.
reply posted on 24-5-2009 @ 12:41 PM by babloyi
reply to post by Neon Haze
No wonder, Neon Haze!
I'm sorry, but you did not choose the best of sources (even according to atheists).
[edit on 24-5-2009 by babloyi]
No wonder, Neon Haze!
I'm sorry, but you did not choose the best of sources (even according to atheists).
[edit on 24-5-2009 by babloyi]
reply posted on 24-5-2009 @ 12:46 PM by Lasheic
reply to post by Neon Haze
Actually, hasn't Zeitgeist been pretty much torn apart by both historians and theologians alike? It's not that there are a lot of obvious falsehoods - but that tenuous connections are stretched too thin to really be considered accurate or applicable in many cases.
I'm not going to write up a comprehensive research and corrections response, because I really don't care enough to at the present time and it would take longer than I have to spare. Perhaps later. In the mean time, something you wrote did catch my eye which I want to address.
It's always seemed to me that Prometheus always more exemplified the Lucifer character. Not the "devil" so many associate, but the "Light Bearer" aspect of Lucifer. Even if the character had innoble intents, he is the one who brought knowledge to mankind by convincing Eve to eat of the forbidden tree of knowledge (or knowledge of good & evil... it seems "knowledge" is maliable depending on the interpretation and the apologetics). However, the similarities end there. I can't say how the original story of Lucifer's rebellion went in the Christian mythos, but for several centuries at least it's been said that the rebellion occurred before man's creation - and that the temptation was Satan's way of corrupting God's perfect new people.
In contrast, Prometheus gave fire to mankind only after realizing his brother Epimetheus had already selfishly used all the gifts on the animals. So Prometheus stole fire.
Fire is,I think, not necessarily meant to be taken literally - but as a symbol for knowledge - at least by association. Knowledge is generally referred to as "light", and in those days - fire was the only source of light in the darkness. So common symbolism for knowledge is a lit lamp. And of course... I doubt the ancient Greeks through that fire was a direct manifestation of the gods. They must have seen it in the natural world, and it's taming occurred long before the city states of Greece were founded. The gods merely had the knowledge it took to summon fire, and control it. This is what Prometheus brought. Knowledge... Knowledge that was only supposed to be privy to the gods. Depending on which source you read, some say he did it out of pity for man, some say out of spite for the gods.
Now, for this transgression, Prometheus was not crucified. He was chained to a rock whereupon he would forever be tortured by raptors eating his liver/entrails. As a god, he cannot die - so each morning his body regenerates and starts the process anew.
Some other interesting parallels between Greek Mythology and the Bible. While Prometheus didn't get crucified and resurrected - he did create mankind in the image of the gods from the clay of the Earth. However, Prometheus was a titan and subservient to the gods. In Genesis, god is the one who created man from clay.
A loose correlation can be made for women here as well. Prometheus wasn't the only one punished for the light of fire being spread to man. Zeus also punished mankind. To this end, he ordered Hephaestus to create a companion to men who would be all that they desired... woman. Hephestus did so, and her name was Pandora. She was offered to the titan Epimetheus (Prometheus's brother) as a gift of consolation. With her, she had a box that contained all of the evils of the world and was told never to open it. Her curiosity got the best of her, and she eventually opened the box - releasing evil into the world. In a way, Pandora's box can be seen in the same light as the expulsion from paradise. Especially since both accounts seem to lay the blame on women.
Also, on a final note: If anyone could be seen as a "Christ Figure" in the Prometheus myth - it would be Hercules. Prometheus was a Titan, not a mortal. Hercules, however, was born of a mortal woman and fathered by a god. Hercules was the redeemer of Prometheus, considering his father's punishment too harsh. He eventually persuaded Zeus to allow him to break Prometheus's chains and redeem him. However, Heracles was the redeemer of a titan - not mankind. Considering the situation, the closest analogy would be if Christ persuaded god to rethink his punishment of Lucifer and allow Christ to descend into the pit and free the Light Bearer from the lake of fire.
So, considering the above, I really don't think you've fully through this through or have done enough research. Surely you must have known the weaknesses of comparing Prometheus to Christ, and yet you added it anyhow in what appears to be the deliberate padding of your case, rather than it's accuracy. Because of this, I don't feel your proposition is really worth considering, as it's likely riddled with the same errors and misconceptions - or convenient stretchings of the truth so long as you think it builds your case. The same error that Zeitgeist's writers made.
Unless, of course, you have a means of explaining the alleged Prometheus/Christ connection which is both accurate and compelling which I have thus far not come across. I did an initial query for resources on the Prometheus Creation/Fire myth and found not even an insinuation of a correlation to Christ.
Indeed, their central roles aren't even the same. Prometheus was the creator of man, and he made mankind to resemble the gods. What more fitting a gift than to bestow upon those who look like the gods, than a spark of the power of the gods. In many ways, I think the Prometheus character both exemplified his love for his creation by stealing fire, as well as spite. I don't see any reason why he could not both pity mankind, and at the same time be contemptuous of the gods who had defeated his fellow titans when Zeus warred against Chronos and now ruled from Mount Olympus with tyranny and absolute control.
(Interesting note: Prometheus represents "Foresight", while his brother represents "hindsight". Prometheus was only tolerated on Mt. Olympus for his insights into the future, and his brother only tolerated by association. It was this foresight that allowed him to steal the fire, and ultimately, makes Prometheus such a tragic character - as he likely knew his ultimate fate as a result of his actions - and he still gave the fire to mankind)
Insofar as Christ... Christ is merely a scapegoat character. It somewhat like the modern act of confession. In the old days, the Jewish people would tell their sins to a goat, or write them on a scroll and tie them to the goat, then either kill the goat as a blood sacrifice or send it into the wilderness to die. Lambs were also common sacrifices, and hold great importance in the old testament. Remember the plagues of Egypt, and that to spare your first born son you had to cover your door frame with lambs blood. This is essentially what Christ is. He is the son of god, the "Sacrificial Lamb" of God. By taking on mortal form, he took our sins upon himself and then was sacrificed to appease the angry Old Testament god for the original sin of Adam and all subsequent sin. He's really just as simple and shallow as that.
The virgin birth and walking on water... that's just filler junk. The central core concept of Christ is not like the other gods you described. Indeed, the reason stated above is why some Christians cannot stand the through of Genesis being read as anything other than literal. To them, it had to historically take place - or else there was no "fall". With no fall, there is no need for a redeemer... no need for Christ. The whole house of cards comes down.
[edit on 24-5-2009 by Lasheic]
Actually, hasn't Zeitgeist been pretty much torn apart by both historians and theologians alike? It's not that there are a lot of obvious falsehoods - but that tenuous connections are stretched too thin to really be considered accurate or applicable in many cases.
I'm not going to write up a comprehensive research and corrections response, because I really don't care enough to at the present time and it would take longer than I have to spare. Perhaps later. In the mean time, something you wrote did catch my eye which I want to address.
Prometheus shares a number of similarities with the Christ character. Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind. He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
It's always seemed to me that Prometheus always more exemplified the Lucifer character. Not the "devil" so many associate, but the "Light Bearer" aspect of Lucifer. Even if the character had innoble intents, he is the one who brought knowledge to mankind by convincing Eve to eat of the forbidden tree of knowledge (or knowledge of good & evil... it seems "knowledge" is maliable depending on the interpretation and the apologetics). However, the similarities end there. I can't say how the original story of Lucifer's rebellion went in the Christian mythos, but for several centuries at least it's been said that the rebellion occurred before man's creation - and that the temptation was Satan's way of corrupting God's perfect new people.
In contrast, Prometheus gave fire to mankind only after realizing his brother Epimetheus had already selfishly used all the gifts on the animals. So Prometheus stole fire.
Fire is,I think, not necessarily meant to be taken literally - but as a symbol for knowledge - at least by association. Knowledge is generally referred to as "light", and in those days - fire was the only source of light in the darkness. So common symbolism for knowledge is a lit lamp. And of course... I doubt the ancient Greeks through that fire was a direct manifestation of the gods. They must have seen it in the natural world, and it's taming occurred long before the city states of Greece were founded. The gods merely had the knowledge it took to summon fire, and control it. This is what Prometheus brought. Knowledge... Knowledge that was only supposed to be privy to the gods. Depending on which source you read, some say he did it out of pity for man, some say out of spite for the gods.
Now, for this transgression, Prometheus was not crucified. He was chained to a rock whereupon he would forever be tortured by raptors eating his liver/entrails. As a god, he cannot die - so each morning his body regenerates and starts the process anew.
Some other interesting parallels between Greek Mythology and the Bible. While Prometheus didn't get crucified and resurrected - he did create mankind in the image of the gods from the clay of the Earth. However, Prometheus was a titan and subservient to the gods. In Genesis, god is the one who created man from clay.
A loose correlation can be made for women here as well. Prometheus wasn't the only one punished for the light of fire being spread to man. Zeus also punished mankind. To this end, he ordered Hephaestus to create a companion to men who would be all that they desired... woman. Hephestus did so, and her name was Pandora. She was offered to the titan Epimetheus (Prometheus's brother) as a gift of consolation. With her, she had a box that contained all of the evils of the world and was told never to open it. Her curiosity got the best of her, and she eventually opened the box - releasing evil into the world. In a way, Pandora's box can be seen in the same light as the expulsion from paradise. Especially since both accounts seem to lay the blame on women.
Also, on a final note: If anyone could be seen as a "Christ Figure" in the Prometheus myth - it would be Hercules. Prometheus was a Titan, not a mortal. Hercules, however, was born of a mortal woman and fathered by a god. Hercules was the redeemer of Prometheus, considering his father's punishment too harsh. He eventually persuaded Zeus to allow him to break Prometheus's chains and redeem him. However, Heracles was the redeemer of a titan - not mankind. Considering the situation, the closest analogy would be if Christ persuaded god to rethink his punishment of Lucifer and allow Christ to descend into the pit and free the Light Bearer from the lake of fire.
So, considering the above, I really don't think you've fully through this through or have done enough research. Surely you must have known the weaknesses of comparing Prometheus to Christ, and yet you added it anyhow in what appears to be the deliberate padding of your case, rather than it's accuracy. Because of this, I don't feel your proposition is really worth considering, as it's likely riddled with the same errors and misconceptions - or convenient stretchings of the truth so long as you think it builds your case. The same error that Zeitgeist's writers made.
Unless, of course, you have a means of explaining the alleged Prometheus/Christ connection which is both accurate and compelling which I have thus far not come across. I did an initial query for resources on the Prometheus Creation/Fire myth and found not even an insinuation of a correlation to Christ.
Indeed, their central roles aren't even the same. Prometheus was the creator of man, and he made mankind to resemble the gods. What more fitting a gift than to bestow upon those who look like the gods, than a spark of the power of the gods. In many ways, I think the Prometheus character both exemplified his love for his creation by stealing fire, as well as spite. I don't see any reason why he could not both pity mankind, and at the same time be contemptuous of the gods who had defeated his fellow titans when Zeus warred against Chronos and now ruled from Mount Olympus with tyranny and absolute control.
(Interesting note: Prometheus represents "Foresight", while his brother represents "hindsight". Prometheus was only tolerated on Mt. Olympus for his insights into the future, and his brother only tolerated by association. It was this foresight that allowed him to steal the fire, and ultimately, makes Prometheus such a tragic character - as he likely knew his ultimate fate as a result of his actions - and he still gave the fire to mankind)
Insofar as Christ... Christ is merely a scapegoat character. It somewhat like the modern act of confession. In the old days, the Jewish people would tell their sins to a goat, or write them on a scroll and tie them to the goat, then either kill the goat as a blood sacrifice or send it into the wilderness to die. Lambs were also common sacrifices, and hold great importance in the old testament. Remember the plagues of Egypt, and that to spare your first born son you had to cover your door frame with lambs blood. This is essentially what Christ is. He is the son of god, the "Sacrificial Lamb" of God. By taking on mortal form, he took our sins upon himself and then was sacrificed to appease the angry Old Testament god for the original sin of Adam and all subsequent sin. He's really just as simple and shallow as that.
The virgin birth and walking on water... that's just filler junk. The central core concept of Christ is not like the other gods you described. Indeed, the reason stated above is why some Christians cannot stand the through of Genesis being read as anything other than literal. To them, it had to historically take place - or else there was no "fall". With no fall, there is no need for a redeemer... no need for Christ. The whole house of cards comes down.
[edit on 24-5-2009 by Lasheic]
reply posted on 24-5-2009 @ 01:01 PM by Neon Haze
Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Neon Haze
No wonder, Neon Haze!
I'm sorry, but you did not choose the best of sources (even according to atheists).
[edit on 24-5-2009 by babloyi]
That was not the only source it's a book I read that relates to the questions you raised about Buddha specifically.
Though I never like quoting Wiki Sources I had not read that before, though given the time that Kersey lived (the 19th century) he would have been vilified for even questioning religion.
You may also want to read the following, though it's a tough read I warn ya.
Another source one of Many
All the best,
NeoN HaZe
reply posted on 24-5-2009 @ 01:07 PM by Neon Haze
reply to post by Lasheic
Time too is running out for me, and I wanted to thank you for your contribution I haven't read it all as of yet so I appologise.
Before I have to go though I thought you should research PROMETHEUS ON CAUCASUS.
All the best,
NeoN HaZe
Time too is running out for me, and I wanted to thank you for your contribution I haven't read it all as of yet so I appologise.
Before I have to go though I thought you should research PROMETHEUS ON CAUCASUS.
All the best,
NeoN HaZe
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