Should there be 13 zodiac signs?

Hi ATSers,
a problem that I've always tried to get my head around is if indeed there should actually be 13 recognised Zodiac constellations.
The reasons why I believe that I,ve listed below:

A: 1) All constellations of the Zodiac lie on an imaginary line, called The Ecliptic. The Ecliptic is the plane of the solar system; so, all palnets and the sun travel on or very close to this line.
2) The correct length of a month should actually be 28 days, following the menstral cycle.
3) As we know it there are 365 days in one year, 24 hrs a day.
Inactuality a day is 23hrs 56min 4 seconds long.
4) If we multiply 28 x 12 = 336. subract 336 from 365, we get 29 days another month.
5) if we take the missing 4 minutes from every day of the year, and multiply that by 365, you get 1459, didvide that by 60 ( to give a hour constant) we get 24.333331. Thats your extra day!
6) here the obvious cracker: The Ecliptic crosses into the constellation of Ophiucus (the serpent bearer)-this is between scorpius and sagittarius. The Ecliptic in Ophiucus is 13 arc minutes in lenght.
If anyone can add to this I'd be greatful.
It makes me feel that there is no wonder that lay persons find inconsistency within hororscopes.
here a link that may be interesting also:

I don't know much about it , but the only thing I can add is the 26,000 year procession , ie the earth wobble thing . That gives us our ages of aquarius , age of pisces etc . So, if each age is 2000 year , then 13 of them will make up the 26,000 years . Therefore 13 zodiac signs .

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I remember seeing this on the news a few years back. Apparently since the Zodiac was first "invented", the constellations that the Sun passes through have changed slightly due to the motion of the earth through space, consequently it now passes through 13 not 12 signs.

reply to post by Drexl

Thanks Drexl, thats a good point and I hadn't thought of adding that to my list.
I was aware of the 26000 year axilial tilt "wobble", but hadn't accounted for it!

A month is in relation to the Lunar cycle which effects menstrual cycles.

Keep in mind there are several different lengths of an Earth year the most common being the Julian year (365.25 days). Then there is the tropical year (precession-365. 24219 days) sidereal year (star sighting-365.25636), anomolistic (perihelion-365.25964), eclipse, Gaussian and Gregorian. There are also different lengths for a month and accuracy is important when your doing orbital calculations. Source of info from Allen's astrophysical qualities.

The origin of the zodiac I find to be an enigma along with 360 degrees equating to a circle and the correlation between our measurement of time and geo-coordinates. I also think it's interesting that on one side of the zodiac is Ophiuchus on the celestial equator just above the ecliptic and on the other (180 degrees) is Orion on the celestial equator but just below the ecliptic.

I think the understanding and value of astrology has been lost over time, horoscopes are meaningless today IMO.

That is the thing I have been posting across a few forums I am on, and no one seems to care.
How can we base our zodiac on something that was adjusted to reflect the Gregorian Calendar.
I will have to hunt around and see if I can find what I found out about it. There is quite a history behind the whole thing.

reply to post by stumason


Hi Stu, do you think that this would give an indication then of just how old the Astrology is then?
Do you think the implementation of the roman calendar (julian) was to compensate the fact that the first point of aries had moved, so thus, at that time the Ecliptic did not cross 13 constellations as it does today, but 12?

Precession of the equinoxes is also something that I find confusing. The measured motion currently is about 1 degree per 71.6 years (71.6x360=25,765yr) but I have read somewhere that the speed changes. The Vedic Great Year is 24,000 yrs long, yet I am unsure if it's the same thing. As for as the explanation of Earths wobble (Lunar Solar tidal effect on Earths equatorial bulged) I'm not so sure, there seem to be some problems with the theory. I always keep in mind that it is just a theory.

reply to post by Devino

The Vedic Great Year is 24,000 yrs long, yet I am unsure if it's the same thing. As for as the explanation of Earths wobble (Lunar Solar tidal effect on Earths equatorial bulged) I'm not so sure, there seem to be some problems with the theory. I always keep in mind that it is just a theory.

Hi Devino,
thanks for the interesting insights! You obviously know what you are talking about. Vedic culture is very old and probably very accurate, but I guess no scientific system is as old as the ever changing cosmos.
The earths bulge due to tidal effects is named by astronomers :Oblateness.
Oblateness can be better observed on worlds where there is an abundence of liquid oceans or gas.
Presession of the equinoxs is probably more on the money in regards to the question outlined in the OP.
What I wonder is though, with the presession of the equinoxs; wouldn't the ecliptic still be the same?
I am thinking along the lines that, all the planets must still travel on the same plane, regardless of how the observer on Earth sees it!
I am thinking that there is probably a "pressession of equinoxes " for the whole solar system.
The solar system apparently is on about a 19deg. tilt. I am sure there are some accurate figures on this, I haven't delved into astronomy, and current findings thereof, for years.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I think you may be missing something here Kriskali, the 13th constellation Ophiuchus is not in the zodiac wheel but above it. It also happens to be in alignment with the center of the Milky Way and in opposition to a node crossing between the plane of the ecliptic and the celestial equator. Currently the nodes are at the end of Pisces and Virgo.

Originally posted by Devino
The origin of the zodiac I find to be an enigma along with 360 degrees equating to a circle and the correlation between our measurement of time and geo-coordinates. I also think it's interesting that on one side of the zodiac is Ophiuchus on the celestial equator just above the ecliptic and on the other (180 degrees) is Orion on the celestial equator but just below the ecliptic.

They all originate from Babylonian times when they used a base 60 form of counting, not the base 10 we use today. That is how they came up with 360 degrees in a circle, the amount of minutes and seconds in measurement of time etc. Babylon and it's empire are from a long time ago, parallel to Ancient Egypt in age, so c 2000 BC or thereabouts.

[edit on 24/5/09 by stumason]

reply to post by Devino

I think you may be missing something here Kriskali, the 13th constellation Ophiuchus is not in the zodiac wheel but above it.

Thanks for that, but do you agree that fundamentally, all zodiac constellations are on the Ecliptic?
What do think about the movement of the solar system as a whole on its axis, in regards to the position of the ecliptic?

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I think you are correct about the plane of the ecliptic remaining relatively unchanged. The celestial equator is what changes and so do the points where the two intersect (nodes), which is now in Pisces and Virgo. I know that Ophiuchus and Orion were important to ancient astrologers but it wasn't until recently that I noticed that they are inline with galactic center.

As far as the plane of the ecliptic changing I don't know. I think it is tilted around 60 degrees to the galactic plane so we are almost facing edge on towards the Milky Ways center. I often wonder if this angle is fixed towards the center as we orbit the galaxy or if we change from a winter solstice alignment to a summer solstice alignment as we go around.

reply to post by Devino

I think you are correct about the plane of the ecliptic remaining relatively unchanged.

What I'm trying to say is that I think the whole solar systems approx. 5 degree tilt must effect the position of the ecliptic.
It would be interesting to see whether Orion was at one time (or at the time of the building of the Pyramids), on the ecliptic: if indeed the position does change in an up/down, north/south motion, as you have suggested.
This would be fairly significant.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Devino
The origin of the zodiac I find to be an enigma along with 360 degrees equating to a circle and the correlation between our measurement of time and geo-coordinates. I also think it's interesting that on one side of the zodiac is Ophiuchus on the celestial equator just above the ecliptic and on the other (180 degrees) is Orion on the celestial equator but just below the ecliptic.

They all originate from Babylonian times when they used a base 60 form of counting, not the base 10 we use today. That is how they came up with 360 degrees in a circle, the amount of minutes and seconds in measurement of time etc. Babylon and it's empire are from a long time ago, parallel to Ancient Egypt in age, so c 2000 BC or thereabouts.

[edit on 24/5/09 by stumason]

I find it interesting that the Mayans and Mesoamericans also had a zodiac and I think there were 12 constellations in the wheel with 1 above it, Paris Codex. It's difficult to interpret when almost everything was destroyed.

There is a reference in Egypt to a 360 day Earth year at one time. This would make sense, one orbit around the Sun is a circle with 360 units. 60 minutes and 60 second works well mathematically with both 360 and 12 making celestial navigation easier. I think the origin of these consepts go beyond the Babylonians.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Hi ATSers,
a problem that I've always tried to get my head around is if indeed there should actually be 13 recognised Zodiac constellations.

Nice work on the math KRISKALI.

I haven't got any cool math to add but what I do have to add is the fact that in olden pagen and nature religon times they followed the old lunar cycles.. In this cycle the same as your math suggests there were 13 months in the year. I am just going to assume there were 13 astrological signs in that calandar.

I listen to micheal tsarion quit a bit and he suggests there are aprox 72 astrological signs. You can find him at taroscopes.com.

Here is something I would like to run past you and your excellent relationship to the math of the solar system. In my studies of this kind of information I have read that in historic times there was a time when the length of the year was 360 day's long. This was prior to an earth changing event or so it is said. I wouuld be very interested in hearing how this would affect your math in relation to the missing month..

Also to add the first time I heard about a missing astrological sign was through Linda Goodman while reading one of her books. The name of the book is Linda Goodman's Sun Signs.

looking forward to hearing your take on this..

peace

daz__

[edit on 24/5/2009 by daz__]To add name of Linda Goodman's book.

[edit on 24/5/2009 by daz__]

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
reply to post by Devino

 

I think you may be missing something here Kriskali, the 13th constellation Ophiuchus is not in the zodiac wheel but above it.

Thanks for that, but do you agree that fundamentally, all zodiac constellations are on the Ecliptic?
What do think about the movement of the solar system as a whole on its axis, in regards to the position of the ecliptic?

I want to add this to the mix at this point. My view of the solar system is that we (planet earth) sort of bobs up and down like a ship on the ocean. One half of the year we are above the ecliptic and the other we are below. there is a time in August when you can see the ecliptic of our own solar system. I can't rember the name for it.

Now if you take this as a reference would it not be the same on a galactic scale where the constalations bob up and down in the river of our galaxy. Not saying this is how it really is just my take on how it works..

peace all,

daz_

reply to post by daz__

Here is something I would like to run past you and your excellent relationship to the math of the solar system. In my studies of this kind of information I have read that in historic times there was a time when the length of the year was 360 day's long. This was prior to an earth changing event or so it is said. I wouuld be very interested in hearing how this would affect your math in relation to the missing month..

Hi Daz,
I never been accused of having had excellent math!!!! You are obviously being sarcastic.
All I can say to that is that the Minoan culture seemed to work on the concept that the circle has 366deg. as does an ancient artefact named The Phaistos Disc.
Alan Butler, an engineer from the UK, did a lot of work in finding the correlations between these two enigmas, and the Megalthic yard. Butler found that the engravings on the Phaistos disc are compatible with a 366 day calendar.
The Phaistos disc, enables the user to be able to predict the position of the sun against the stars, to the accuracy of 1/366.
The main point I'd like to reiterate from previous posts, is that the solar system is very old and by comparison, the sciences we have must be changed and updated to accommodate its complexity.
The only thing I can ask is : how "historically", are you talking about? Maybe a huge catyclism: huge meteor, comet impact etc, would slow the rotation etc, giving a different value of one day.
It could also be the fact that some ancient numerical systems, such as the Minoans, had a decimal base of 6, and not 10.
A decimal base of 10, would easily fit this historic example of 360 day year .

We Native Americans do have 13 months and we use the lunar cycle to measure each... of course we used different names for them... Season of the big cold, season of the long dark, season of planting etc...

However in the grand scheme of things its easier for all mankind everywhere on earth to have a simple date/time system... just as the Jew's have their own calendar so do we... but we still use the standard the rest of the world has adopted not to conform but have common ground.. Hey Frank lets get together on March 13th... easier for him to understand than saying Hey Frank Lets get together on the third night after the big moon... truth be told while my grandfather would know precisely what that meant my children wouldn't

reply to post by DaddyBare


Hi daddybare, I totally agree with your point that a unified world should all go by the same calendar ( although the Buddhists in Nepal still use athe buddhist calendar- mainstream there, they also recognise the roman calendar).
The main point of this is pertanent to Astrology, which I am sure Native Americans have had a grasp on for aeons. Your people also probably had differing names for the zodiac constellations as well