Exactly what do they want?

Do you suppose they'd leave us alone if we just left them alone? I mean, what action (or non-action) on our part would satisfy the terrorists? I can't imagine they'd be lashing out at us if we hadn't aided all of their enemies at one time or another. Is it really that simple? Just stop messing with them? What if we announced that we're washing our hands of the middle east, but one more attack, and there will be nuclear devastation like no one's ever seen? What do you think?

Unfortunately I don't believe that is the only reason they have issues with us, I personally think they have major issues with our culture as a whole, and if your going to make a statement to the world, why not make it against the worlds greatest power

Personal opinion -

Seeing the problems in the middle east as a battle between civilisation and "terrorists" is far too simplistic to be any use whatsoever. Unfortunately it seems to be what GWB sees.

The sensible route would be intelligent diplomacy with the US doing it's best to shed it's image as the imperialist agressor. Hence:
a) not invading Iraq without a very good reason, full support inside the Middle East and a clear international mandate
b) attempting to solve the problems in Israel and Palestine without spending 2 years ignoring the issue, 1 year vaguely trying to be helpful, and a few months rubber stamping the views of one side of the argument.

Intelligent diplomacy is the only way forwards, which probably is going to have to wait until GWB is out of power.

Theyll never be happy...if we stay we are imperialists...and if we leave and something goes wrong...then we will have "left to soon"...remember...the US is between Iraq and a hard place right now...

Originally posted by Satyr
Do you suppose they'd leave us alone if we just left them alone? I mean, what action (or non-action) on our part would satisfy the terrorists?

The fact that you would even ask these questions does somehow show the impact these terrorist attacks have had on so many of us.

We cannot blink here, negotiaion should not be an option.

There is no real political solution. There is nothing short of death that we can give "them" that would make them stop.

Gazz

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by UM_Gazz]

See, I think that's BS. They're not attacking every culture in the world that isn't theirs. To say that they only want to attack us because they don't like the way we live, is ignorant. If it didn't effect them, they wouldn't even give it a second thought. Kind of like our gov't...if what they did didn't effect me, I wouldn't care. I'd leave them alone, and they'd leave me alone. Out of sight, out of mind. You'll never convince me that their goal is to wipe out people who don't agree with their religion. That's idiocy. You can hate the hell out of people, but unless they invade your territory, you don't really care...as long as they don't effect your life, right? Think deeper. Shallow thought isn't helping us.

[Edited on 4-29-2004 by Satyr]

Is this the case of "the one who has the most toys when the die, WINS"
Replace that with: "the one with the most deaths...WINS"

This is a lose lose situation, crap or get off the pot!!!

The problems between Israel and Palestine have been going on for a great deal longer than two years...

I heard in an interview Clinton himself saying he knew he needed to knock Saddam out of power, he just wasn't willing to risk the bad PR for not having a defined reason. What disturbs me is the lie and how much more acceptable this may have seemed if the truth had just been told. But then, I'm not a fly on the wall so I don't even know for sure the details. We're very limited about what we know of these things.

I just wanted to also say that the allusion that America is this big super power amuses me... one of the richest countries in the world is Iraq itself. What about Russia and Korea and all the nukes they've got? So we can eat pizza and talk loudly about sex and criticizing our president openly while sitting in the middle of a cafeteria... that�s a lotta power there. Cripes man, we don�t even produce anything really worthy of exporting anymore. So where, oh where, does this idea come from? If I'm wrong, by all means correct me. I suppose terorists can't attack themselves.

Think logically. If you hate me, but I live 2000 miles away, and I have absolutely nothing to do with you, or anyone you know, why would you care? You know I exist, and that's about it. The good old US #ed up too many times, and yes, now it is a lose/lose situation. Someone has to use brains instead of brawn and fix this. Currently, it seems our administration is short on brains. Apparently, so is America.

Originally posted by DamnableSara
The problems between Israel and Palestine have been going on for a great deal longer than two years...

You know what, though? I couldn't give a flying # about Israel or Palestine! Why the hell do we need to do anything to anyone? Let them kill each other, for all I care! It never was our problem, until we made it our problem. Not a wise decision, IMO. Each day we involve ourselves in these problems, we burry ourselves deeper. We've only lowered ourselves. I've been screaming this # for ages now. I hate to say I told you so, but I sure as hell did. No one listened, just like they're not listening now.

[Edited on 4-29-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr


You know what, though? I couldn't give a flying # about Israel or Palestine! Why the hell do we need to do anything to anyone? Let them kill each other, for all I care! It never was our problem, until we made it our problem. Not a wise decision, IMO. Each day we involve ourselves in these problems, we burry ourselves deeper. We've only lowered ourselves. I've been screaming this # for ages now. I hate to say I told you so, but I sure as hell did. No one listened, just like they're not listening now.

[Edited on 4-29-2004 by Satyr]

After ww2 and the Holocaust, they were looking for someplace to call home, to go back to. They decided to return to their holy land, one problem... people were already living there, and the lines set up to accommodate them weren't accepted by the folks living there. By standing by, and saying it was okay for them to push people over and out, it became a problem. But then, this problem has always been fought there, hasn't it? The Golden Ages don't seem very substantial other than to say that Christians Jews and Muslims lived in peace for a speck of time when compared to this.

I wasn't trying to jibe you, I was replying to what Dom said... I actually agree with you. Don't start #, there won't be #. Unfortunately however, I find this downright logical approach a tad unrealistic given the circumstances in the world today.

Originally posted by Satyr
...The good old US #ed up too many times...

and how! non of this is probably new to most of you but here it is anyways. for this you have to dig way back, and ask why they would target the US, as a primary target that is. i can think of a few examples. one, they're probably pissed off that the US has jumped from side to side, supporting (ie; hussain, bin-laden, iran, the US has supported all of these figures among others at one point), then turning around, calling then evil bastards. two, i'm pretty sure that you'd build a hefty grudge after your entire neighbourhood had just been toppled, entire family killed or fatally wounded. though you'd be non-the-wiser since their media would be as biased as ours. in other words, i think a lot of these "terrorists" in a certain frame of mind, have reasonable motives for doing what they do. plus, i think it's pretty obvious that their main qualm is with the government, not the people. of course some do hate us, but mainly due to our lifestyles id imagine. but yeah, what better way to piss the gov't off than to hit its consumers/people. though sometimes i think the gov't dont give two #s. it could be another way of getting us up off our asses, realising the gov't is mostly #, and actually doing something about. i dont think that i have to recall the masses that protested this whole war. so we are getting somewhere, as people, just very slowly in comparison. bah! im out.

With Clinton I feel that the whole BJ scandal hurt his ability to kick some foreign ass when needed because the press would make it look like Wag the Dog.

Its great that Saddam is gone and they need to realise that. I wish we could round up all the terrorist enclose them and nuke 'em. Maybe tricking them to attack "dummy" convoys would be a effective strategy.

The US cant go around nuking other countries but if we get another large scale attack against us I feel that the US should send a strong message to the middle east.

Someone told me that Israel and Palestine making peace would be a sign that the anti-christ is here and the end times were near.

Originally posted by jrod
Someone told me that Israel and Palestine making peace would be a sign that the anti-christ is here and the end times were near.

actually i think it was if israel went down, then we'd all be fu#ked. anyone read the bible here, cause i sure dont.

Originally posted by jrod
Someone told me that Israel and Palestine making peace would be a sign that the anti-christ is here and the end times were near.

That's the least of my concerns, since I tend to believe that's leftover superstition of yesteryear.

Killing all the terrorists would be a great idea. I don't want any further terrorist attacks as much as anyone else here.

I think the mistake is to assume that the only people violently opposing the US occupation in Iraq are terrorists. The whole naming idea just doesn't make sense. These people are fighting military targets, they're clearly militia or armed forces, not terrorists. Obviously there are some terrorists in there too, attacking civilian targets, but it's certainly likely that there are multiple groups active in the area at the moment, some attacking mil/gov and some attacking civilian targets.

As for Israel/Palestine. The issue does go back a long way, and it's a significant image problem for the US in the Middle East. Any solution to the problems of increasing terrorism against the US/UK will only come about from an improved public image. That means real political changes in terms of how we deal with foreign policy. If the US didn't want to get involved in Israel it should never have continued such huge military funding for the country.

As for the superpower issue....
GDP massively above anyone elses
25% of worlds Co2 emissions
Military spending greater than the combined military spending of all other nations on Earth.

The US is clearly the only superpower, and it acts like it.

I can't further contest you Dom, because I don't know for sure what you're saying is right or wrong. Can you please link to a valid site that shows this?

Originally posted by dom
Killing all the terrorists would be a great idea.

To them, we're the terrorists. They're fighting to keep us out of their #. Now, it may just be me, but I don't see how separating ourselves from the middle east, completely, could possibly be that tough. If it were me, I'd say something like, "Look, we're going to leave you miserably alone. BUT, the first time you come and # with us again, you and all your families, are toast." And I'd mean it. If an another attack happened, 2 million people die in a flash of white light. I'd send a copy of the video to the remaining countries.

Keep in mind, I am anti-war/anti-nuke, but this is a #ed up situation we've gotten ourselves into. Admitting that is the first step to solving it. America is still in denial.

Its not what do they want, its what do we want should be the question in the middle east. Id go into ancient societies and ancient religions but we all know how most think about that stuff. Nonsense they say

DamnableSara -

GDP
www.worldbank.org...
US - 8879.5 billion $
World - 29994
Russia - 329
Japan - 4054
UK - 1403
US Percentage = 30%

Military Spending
fpc.state.gov...
US - 348.5 (billion $)
China - 51
Russia - 50.8
Japan - 39.5
Total - 889
US Percentage = 40%
So I was slightly wrong there, but US spending is far higher than anyone else

CO2 emissions
www.epcc.pref.osaka.jp...
US Percentage = 22.4%

Can you tell I'm feeling bored this afternoon?

Thanks Dom, I wasn't aware of all of that. I still do think that people give the US more credit than they deserve though... despite the numbers.

Not bored, lol, just trying to prove a point ^_-