The Céile Dé Priest Masons & the "Black Art", page 2

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reply posted on 29-5-2009 @ 03:45 PM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by Masonic Light

The points raised here regarding the disputed legitimacy of GLOAE by UGLE and other accepted constitutions is acknowledged. However GLOAE and the Grand Secretary were purely only instumental in the genesis of the research I have done here this far. The information initially communicated by the Grand Secretary has been found to be quite accurate thus far as regards the Céile Dé priesthood and their place & roots in antiquity. The modern institution that claims direct lineage from the Céile Dé amounts to a moot point as regards the relevant subject matter of this thread, though as I mentioned in a previous post a I will be looking further into the veracity of their claim. The thread content is not an extension of the claims of the Grand Lodge at York. It is a work unto itself.

The thing to be remembered is that the majority of this post uses information from many solid, academic reference works, but the post is an example of the synchromystic approach to these matters, and I believe that it has founded a solid base to conduct further, more intensive research as result of this unorthodox method.
My initial work here is a staging post only towards the advancement of the content, and to see where the road will end.

reply posted on 1-6-2009 @ 11:34 AM by RWPBR

1 bad apple spoils the whole barrel ? Well maybe not but consider your sources and whatever axes they may have to grind.

reply posted on 1-6-2009 @ 05:18 PM by Extant Taxon

Originally posted by RWPBR
1 bad apple spoils the whole barrel ? Well maybe not but consider your sources and whatever axes they may have to grind.

The information contained in the email from the Grand Secretary of the GLOAE only prompted my research into the Céile Dé/Culdees (as I've already stated), and the issue of the Grand Secretary's animosity towards UGLE was addressed in my original post.

I'd like to know if you actually dispute the very existence of the Céile Dé/Culdees in ancient times, or the veracity of the historical source materials, reference works, and research I've used? Besides the gripe you have about the Grand Secretary and his lodge? Notwithstanding that the basic information he provided about the Céile Dé in antiquity being corroborated by historical sources. The issue of whether his constitution is legitimate or not is moot as regards the Céile Dé in historical terms. It seems you may be attempting to misrepresent my argument, and distort the information I've presented.

reply posted on 2-6-2009 @ 11:51 PM by Eleleth

I have a lot of questions about the true provenance of the Kolbrin. It seems that if such a text were legitimate, scholars would be all over it as a most valuable historical source. Instead, the only references to it I can find are on ridiculous "PLANET X IS COMING WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE" sites.

There is also a strange connection here with the Vulcans of Star Trek, who form an illuminated priesthood of their own. I mentioned this briefly in the SecSun comments. And Leonard Nimoy was in Star Trek (2009) with John Cho, who was in The Air I Breathe (2007) with Kevin Bacon.

I suspect that the Johannine tradition split from the Petrine at the very beginning of Christianity, and this event is recorded in the last chapter of John:

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

This whole passage is ridiculous unless it is understood that the apostles Peter and John—"the disciple whom Jesus loved"—represent the two churches, the exoteric and esoteric.

[edit on 2-6-2009 by Eleleth]

reply posted on 3-6-2009 @ 05:42 AM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by Eleleth

Yes, the Kolbrin is associated with a whole lot of the Planet X phenomenon. But I prefer to read the whole text myself, investigate, research, and make up my own mind. The Kolbrin I received was from this website in New Zealand:

The Kolbrin

Someone who has read the book suggested that site as perhaps having the more "legitimate" text (who knows how you can judge legitimacy in this case?) than the Niburu/Planet X/2012 Kolbrins that you can get on Amazon.
If you go to the following link from the above site there is opportunity to read large parts of the text:

Read the Kolbrin

I'm in the process of collecting a large number of accepted, academic historical texts on the Céile Dé/Culdees, the Kolbrin will be assessed and referenced according to those texts. And vice-versa. See what correlations can be made, if any.

Originally posted by ElelethThere is also a strange connection here with the Vulcans of Star Trek, who form an illuminated priesthood of their own. I mentioned this briefly in the SecSun comments. And Leonard Nimoy was in Star Trek (2009) with John Cho, who was in The Air I Breathe (2007) with Kevin Bacon.

Yes, the six degrees of Kevin Bacon is the foundation stone of this thread. I have been found out on this previously.

But the Vulcans? Yes, very masonic.

Originally posted by Eleleth

I suspect that the Johannine tradition split from the Petrine at the very beginning of Christianity, and this event is recorded in the last chapter of John:

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

This whole passage is ridiculous unless it is understood that the apostles Peter and John—"the disciple whom Jesus loved"—represent the two churches, the exoteric and esoteric.

[edit on 2-6-2009 by Eleleth]

Yep, I've come across this previously. Thanks for reminding me though, I had forgotten about the "exo" and the "eso" interpretations of that passage.

[edit on 3/6/09 by Extant Taxon]

reply posted on 13-8-2009 @ 07:44 AM by grandsecretary

reply to post by Masonic Light

I am saddened that on this forum in particular, falsehood and propoganda on behalf of the Moderns form of freemasonry is repeated, which gets us nowhere in respect of the origins of the true and genuine form of Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry. You would expect to see it on forums controlled by members of The United Grand Lodge of England and its satellite organisations but not here where we might expect a fair and rational approach to evidence and fact.

POLICY STATEMENT ISSUED AT YORK, FEBRUARY 2006

The Grand Lodge of All England wishes to confirm for the purposes of absolute clarity that the legitimacy and authority of The Grand Lodge of All England at York derives from its lawful act of constitutional restitution effected at York on Friday 23rd December 2005 according to English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practice and tradition, and upon those ancient laws traditions and landmarks obtained through the practices of Free Masonry since time immemorial. The Grand Lodge of All England is therefore beyond the jurisdiction of any other Masonic body, either at home or overseas, particularly but not exclusively: The United Grand Lodge of England; The Conference of Grand Masters of Masons of North America and its constituent Grand Lodges.

Any attempt to link or associate The Grand Lodge of All England, also titled The Grand Lodge at York, the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Freemasons meeting since time immemorial in the City of York with any individual, body, bodies, organisation, organisations, association or associations, whether Masonic or non-Masonic must be regarded as entirely false and possibly malicious unless supported by a written Treaty of Amity or Agreement ratified by The Grand Assembly of Masons at York or a Convocation of The Grand Lodge of All England, at York.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England

Now, this thread is not about me, or The United Grand Lodge of England, which as far as I know does not claim any connection with the Culdees.

The Culdees of York was the name borne by the Canons Regular of St Peter's of York (York Minster: Cathedral and Metropolitical Church of St Peter in York) about AD 925. (SOURCE: p.615, Volume V07, Encyclopaedia Brittanica 11th edition, 1911)

[edit on 13-8-2009 by grandsecretary]

reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 11:05 AM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by grandsecretary

Ah, the Grand Secretary of the GLOAE. Welcome to the thread.

Despite our little clash of swords on another forum I will look forward to how masons present on this board respond to your posts as it regards the Céli Dé/Culdees.

I'm still researching the subject right now and won't be posting anything substantial here for quite some time. Its become quite the project for me.

reply posted on 24-8-2009 @ 04:35 AM by grandsecretary

If you would like some assistance with your research, including access to sources, documents and references, then my email address is on the contact page of our website: www.grandlodgeofallengland.org...

reply posted on 24-8-2009 @ 07:08 AM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by grandsecretary

Thank you.

reply posted on 29-8-2009 @ 05:53 AM by malison

reply posted on 30-8-2009 @ 05:35 AM by grandsecretary

May I suggest a starting point for anybody who is genuinely interested in this subject?

Place this into your favorite search engine: Culdees Masons Monks

You will be surprised at how many references are generated by this first step. There is a lot to read, and it will set you off on a fascinating journey.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 06:03 PM by grandsecretary

Our webpage www.grandlodgeofallengland.org... has been updated. The Grand Lodge at York has announced the acquisition of a fair copy of a unique manuscript in the Gaelic tongue, dated c. AD 798.

This historic manuscript is reputed to have been written by Óengus mac Óengobann, better known as Saint Óengus of Tallaght or Óengus the Culdee, an Irish bishop, reformer and writer.

Unlike the Higgins document, which was used by the Céile Dé Priest Masons at St Peter's at York (York Minster) c. AD 927, this manuscript was used at Tallacht Abbey, the mother house of the Culdee (Céli Dé) movement in County Wicklow, Ireland. This Abbey was co-founded by Maelruain and Saint Óengus in AD 774.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by grandsecretary]

[edit on 4-9-2009 by grandsecretary]

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 04:51 PM by grandsecretary

We have added a new webpage to our website entitled "Druids Culdees Masons".

Please see: www.grandlodgeofallengland.org...

We hope that this assists your researches.

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 05:02 PM by blupblup

reply to post by Extant Taxon

Very interesting read so far, good job

Will take a while to go through but S+F.

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 06:13 PM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by blupblup

Thanks. Hopefully another instalment coming up soon.

reply posted on 13-9-2009 @ 06:23 PM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by grandsecretary

Looks good. The Culdees of the British Islands by William Reeves has some pretty damn good information in the Appendix of Evidences too (if you know what you're looking for) for anyone interested. The main body of the text serves as a very decent timeline & record for the various Culdee monasteries/settlements of Britain, but is immensely dry.

reply posted on 24-9-2009 @ 05:42 AM by grandsecretary

I found this reference the other day.

"This church and the civilization introduced by the Romans were swept away by the Picts and Saxons, and the members, called Culdees, were compelled to hide in the wilderness of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the small islands between Great Britain and Ireland; chiefly in Anglesey and Iona, where they preserved their Apostolic institutions, which were modeled after the most ancient Christian church, which, it is well known, was the secret or Masonic form.

"In England they occur nowhere but at St Peter's, in York, as mentioned above. At York, Athelstane found them, and gave them his friendship and protection. It is said that he employed them in building churches, convents and castles. Archbishop Usher and others treat of this subject, but the old writers on the papal side of the question are said to have purposely avoided making mention of the Culdees. This sect was first spoken of in connection with the Masonic society by Ignatius Aurelius Fessler, a distinguished Masonic writer of Germany. (SOURCE: p.369, Masonic Eclectic or Gleanings from the Harvest Field of Masonic Literature, Part 2 by John W. Simons, 1860)

reply posted on 26-9-2009 @ 12:15 PM by Extant Taxon

reply to post by grandsecretary

That's a useful quote. Thanks. I shall quite possibly use it. But as the quote addresses researchers who have approached this from a purely Celtic Christian Church angle (often being ecclesiastic themselves) don't overtly make mention of the operative masonic angle to the Culdees (or don't refer to it at all), and I can't see that it is because they have a lack of primary and secondary source material to inform them of the reality.
The real gems I have found have been in the footnotes and appendices of people like Reeves and O'Dwyer. Though the eventual paydirt is in York the more academically accepted historical roots in Ireland seem highly significant too. The translation of the place name Clonmacnoise is key also I feel. "Meadow of the Sons of Nós." But what does Nos very possibly mean? And what were the Céli Dé also referred to as? It would all seem to tie in. I shall report what my research points to soon.

[edit on 26/9/09 by Extant Taxon]

reply posted on 29-9-2009 @ 09:24 AM by grandsecretary

I am not sure what you mean by "the operative angle", but I look forward to reading the results of your researches.

These two quotes are very interesting when they are juxtaposed:

"The Druidical College of Derry was converted into a Culdee Monastery. About the year 561 Columba and twelve companions left Ireland to build the Monastery of Icolmkill, and Masonic legend assigns the lectures of Harodim to this Monastery; they founded Colleges at Govan and Kilwinning." (SOURCE: The Druids and the Politics of Celtic Scholarship by John Toland 1670-1722)

"With Chapter IX, the Gothic Builders died out and their Lodges relaxed into small social gatherings, but in the North of England where there were Lodges in the jurisdiction of York, the Lodges continued the Harodim, or Masters' Fraternity, of which Gould in his large history affords ancient proofs." (SOURCE: The Arcane Schools, Part 6, Chapter XI, The System Termed High-Grade Speculative Freemasonry by John Yarker)

reply posted on 29-9-2009 @ 09:28 AM by grandsecretary