Question about "thoughts create reality" that I never get an answer to

I have a question that I can't seem to get a good answer to.

You know how these New Agers believe that "thoughts create reality" and how the Holographic Universe theorists say that there is no objective reality and that everything is created by the mind, supported by many discoveries in quantum physics? Hippies are also fond of saying "You create your own reality" too.

Ok well if that's so, then why is it that I can put a blue table in the middle of a room full of people and tell them all that it's a yellow table, yet they'll all still unanimously see a blue table? Isn't that obvious proof of an objective reality? Or an objective existence of material objects at least?

They also seem to say that whatever you think, happens, and that whatever happens to you happens as a result of your expectations and thoughts. But if that's so, then how come we can't fly or walk through walls? How come the Titanic sunk even though everyone "thought" it was unsinkable?

Hippies and New Agers respond to this by saying that our thoughts aren't powerful enough to allow us to fly or walk through walls. But isn't that a copout, since no one has demonstrated that their thoughts can allow them to fly and walk through walls? And also, if our thoughts aren't that powerful then why do they talk about it as though all our reality were created by our thoughts? They can't have it both ways.

Also, New Age gurus like Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra, and films like "What the bleep do we know" and "The Secret" make it sound as if thoughts were ALL POWERFUL and could do anything.

One thing that ticks me is that they never DEFINE the exact limitations or degree of power that "thoughts" have. Dean Radin and psi researchers say that it's only been proven that thoughts have a microscopic effect on outcomes, such as in PEAR's random number generator experiments, or Ganzfeld's telepathy experiments.

Ok so they've defined it as miniscule but statistically significant to show a real effect. So if it's miniscule then why do Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra and other New Age gurus claim that thoughts are all powerful and that you create your own reality, as though it were Gospel Truth, as though thoughts were all powerful and limitless and that if you don't believe this, then you only have yourself to blame?

Are they BSing to sell books? Do they know it? And why is it that only the middle class and above folks tend to believe that their thoughts created their reality, and not the poor folks? Is it because the rich like to take credit for their status, so the idea that their thoughts created their reality sounds appealing to them? And the poor are more practical and see it as BS (since if their thoughts really controlled reality then they wouldn't be poor).

I wrote an essay about this here:

www.debunkingskeptics.com...

I have read the whole book "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, and it does contain a lot of great theories, quantum physics discoveries and examples that are interesting and make sense. But it never answers these questions, such as the blue table example above. And New Agers and hippies tend to issue cop out answers like "our thoughts aren't powerful enough yet", but if that's so, then how can they be creating our reality? They can't have it both ways.

What do you think?

There are discoveries in quantum physics, such as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, that indicate that reality may be an illusion. But if that's so, then how come everyone can see the blue table in the middle of the room unanimously? If I drive a red sports car, everyone will see the same thing, regardless of my beliefs or their beliefs. They may like or dislike the red car but they will see the same physical image nevertheless.

So how does the universe being an illusion or a projection of our thoughts explain that?

I can't get a clear answer to this. Can anyone help? Thanks.

Originally posted by WWu777

Ok well if that's so, then why is it that I can put a blue table in the middle of a room full of people and tell them all that it's a yellow table, yet they'll all still unanimously see a blue table? Isn't that obvious proof of an objective reality? Or an objective existence of material objects at least?

If you put a blue table in a room and tell everyone its a yellow one, and, expect them to see a yellow one then you are not creating YOUR reality, you are trying to create THEIRS... and that's not the point of creating.
if that is what your after, then I call that an attempt of mind controll and it proves nothing about creating your personal reality.

When I speak about creating, I mean creating or attracting the things you want to come on your life-path. If I wanted a yellow table then it will come to me, but it won't be your blue table turning yellow just for me. I belief I create this way, therefor the thing I want has to exist already to be able to come my way... otherwise, well, just imagine people creating dinosaurs and dragons...

If you ask about materializing things, then I don't have a clue about that, never said I could do that either

There are discoveries in quantum physics, such as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, that indicate that reality may be an illusion. But if that's so, then how come everyone can see the blue table in the middle of the room unanimously? If I drive a red sports car, everyone will see the same thing, regardless of my beliefs or their beliefs. They may like or dislike the red car but they will see the same physical image nevertheless.

how come everyone can see the blue table unanimously? because on some level we are all able to translate energy (the energy of which everything is made off) and thus lable the table as blue, as it was once created by someone.
another thing, the theory of the holographic universe also makes you wonder if we are really inside the illusion or merely connected to it. Either way, we are all connected to each other, maybe that is exactly what keeps the hologram going and we all function as sender and receiver, co-creating a universe. It's a nice theory

btw, how can you be so sure that everyone sees the same physical image of something? Sure they all call it 'a red car' or 'a blue table', but how can you be sure that the way I perceive red and blue is the exact same way as you perceive it?

If we would all percieve things the same way, all liked and disliked the same things then we would all be alike. That's why we have personal perspectives and perceptions, which are formed by our beliefsystems and experiences... or by upbringing and education, that's what forms your reality... and believe me, your reality is not the same as mine or the next persons'.


You've been reading the other thread about this topic and as a lot of people stated, if you want proof of this, you'll have to find it for yourself. It's just one of those things that can't be proven at this time, all we have is personal experiences that tell us that one thing is more likely then the other (in your own perspective that is)

your approach is too assumed. intent+letting go= the goods.

we are co creators, all of us, combined, with higher forces at work also....call it God if you wish.

I could put a yellow table in a room full a people and well, if they all spoke another language and didn't know a lick of english.....they would all be calling it something else also wouldn't they....

what SOME of us chose to call yellow is just the manner which light is reflected off an object, am I right? so, you sat a table down and just called it something that it wasn't....you didn't do anything to change the manner which the light is reflecting off the object, did you?? so, well,.....there you go!!

but, you are right, you cannot fully control your reality.

let's say I was walking down a country road that is very seldom traveled on, and I think...."I am hungry"...okay, it is possible, if I knew how to or got a little assistance from those higher forces I spoke of before, to manifest an apple tree up ahead.

it would be alot less possible to do this walking down the main street of a big city!! I can't, am not allowed to intrude on your reality. so, if you walk down that country road every day, and well, you definately would notice that apple tree standing there where none was standing yesterday, well, I don't think I would get my morning apple.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by dawnstar]

So basically, there's a shared reality, which is why we can both see a mountain and agree that a mountain is there, right?

If so, how can this shared reality be created by our thoughts? What if my thoughts were not the same as yours? The mountain would still be there right?

And what about my other question. Why did the Titanic sink when everyone believed it was unsinkable?

And if I walked into the Pentagon fully believing, 100 percent, that I was the President, would everyone treat me like the President? No. Why not?

And how come when kids are afraid of the boogie monster, they don't manifest it so that it comes out and gets them in reality?

reply to post by WWu777


To answer your table question, I think it's a matter of individual reality vs shared reality. We do create individual reality and can manipulate specific things, but then these rules are also governed by a collective reality. Some can have an affect on the independent reality and I would guess on the collective as well, by influence, or by creating the specific circumstances to allow their specific individual reality to manifest fully.

Every once in a while you are going to come across others who also see a yellow table as well. The collective reality in that case will change it from blue to yellow, but normally the table would be blue and your independent reality would not be able to fully influence the whole to a specific enough degree under normal conditions.

Some who practice I believe can manipulate these conditions better than others. I hope that made sense.

Originally posted by WWu777
...

And what about my other question. Why did the Titanic sink when everyone believed it was unsinkable?

...

Exactly! The theory "thoughts create reality" cannot answer such kind of questions. Why unexpected event would happen? My current believe of "thoughts create reality" is just ONE OF THE WAYS to influence the reality, but some new agers seem to believe such theory is the ONLY WAY!

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riverchan]

reply to post by WWu777


Thoughts are things. However perception is another. A blind test is best suited for this. I don't remember which psychologist it was, but one described to us in Phsych class was take water in dark cups to thirteen people, tell them it's wine and keep "Blindly" replenishing the water and the thirteen people will act and percieve themselves as drunk. An a good example is my Hubby plays the lottery all the time, I beleive it's a waste of money, he beleives he will win, today he came to me and told me he has won $2500. He made this his reality. I never win, because I don't beleive I will win.

I too am completely sick of the new age crowd acting above everyone else with this 'holier than though' attitude.

If i ever challenge such beliefs i get accused of being 'unspiritual, unevolved, immature, shallow minded narrow minded, soulless, unwilling to grow' and a whole host of other insults.

Of course i respect everyone's belief and i will fight for the right for everyone to have a belief, but what i don't understand is that whenever i challenge someone's beliefs, instead of simply answering with 'I don't know'.... i get insulted, by the very same people who seem to preach this pseudo-spiritual attitude to life.

Considering how open minded these people claim to be, i think maybe they should replace some of the emptiness with a little common sense.

As i once said to a woman who thought she was some high priestess and suffered from a very over inflated ego, i told her maybe she should actually get off her arse and make a difference physically instead of sitting at home and praying and then bathing in her own sense of self satisfaction. Maybe she shold have gotten a job and donated some money to starving children instead of making herself feel better by saying 'oh well i'be prayed, things will be alright'....

I notice you get a lot of these people in Glastonbury in England and similar surrounding areas, where i notice coincedentally it seems to be the richer people who claim to be far more spiritual than anyone else,...... so does money and wealth buy you spirituality?

No... But maybe a spoiled, self centred up bringing gives you an ego.

Our thoughts don't remain trapped in our heads... they are projected outward, mix with everyone elses thoughts, and reality is manifested in such a way as to not impose upon free-will. Which means that which manifests is always believable and can be interpreted from multiple perspectives.

The only way to change someone elses reality is to make that change believable. For example if you spray painted the table a different color, your guests would believe that the act of spraying a new color onto the table would make it's color change. If everyone believed a simple act of the will could change it, then it would. But instead we have all these rules (physics) to follow because some people want to believe, others don't. What happens is something in between. The universe seeks equilibrium. What you see in reality is the average of our thoughts.

Just an note on the blue table experiment. I don't believe this would be proof of an objective reality as you would be accepting as truthful data from an objective reality (i.e. other people) to prove an objective reality exists. Thus when the problem was formed you have already accepted that there was an objective reality (i.e. other people) in which to prove the same objective reality exists. In my opinion there's really no way to prove an objective reality among people, you would only be able to prove it to yourself, though I don't know how one would go about that.

I went to a small non denominational church in texas for about five years in the early 1980's. well during that time span a philosophy made it's rounds that I call the "Name It and Claim It". what it consisted of is the idea that if you wanted something, you could just pray to God to give it to ya, testify your believe to others, and well, claim it, in the name of God...and well, if you believed hard enough, you would get it...

well, a friend of ours painted apartments and homes for a living and he was working painting these really nice expensive apartments. he decided he wanted one, he told God his desires, he testified before all of us that God would give it to him, and he went ahead and signed the lease....

a few months later, he went right ahead and broke the lease...

there's a higher power involved in creation, and well, I don't think he likes to be backed into a corner like this. ya, you can pray, you can ask, you can testify all you want, but in the end, if he decides you shouldn't have it, well, it's not gonna be there.

I left the church in the late 80's but when bush was talking about his war on terror at it's beginning, I took note how many times he was saying thinks like "And, we will win!!" it seems like he was confessing his belief, he was running on this philosophy. I often wonder just how much this philosphy played in the current banking crisis...
just a bunch of people running around, thinking they can create the reality that they want...and well.....it just didn't work out the way the wanted.

but, well, the point I wanted to make was that it's not restricted to a bunch of new agers.....I've run into it in the chirstian churches also.

Originally posted by WWu777
Ok well if that's so, then why is it that I can put a blue table in the middle of a room full of people and tell them all that it's a yellow table, yet they'll all still unanimously see a blue table? Isn't that obvious proof of an objective reality? Or an objective existence of material objects at least?

First of all you would have a lot of psychological conditioning and learned methods of perception to overcome with all the people who are looking at it, that they would mentally be able to change what they see in the first place. Only afterwards could it influence the actual matter, if you have the energy to do it at all, unless you are waiting for it to change itself materially.

It isn't a cop out to say things are possible but we are yet individually incapable of doing them. There are tons of cases of people realizing something is possible way before they actually do it, in terms of technology and artistic endeavors and just all across the board.

There's an additional trouble in that when you finally are able to do seemingly miraculous things, your own way of thinking of the world will be quite different. How exactly it differs and why is something you'll find out personally.