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Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before saying its torture

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posted on May, 24 2009 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 

Thank you sir, for that astute observation. I cannot understand why people have such a hard time believing we were attacked. I suppose they are the same ones that don't believe Japanese subs were off the coast of California during WWII.




posted on May, 24 2009 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 

That's just it. Someone has to make a decision to draw the line, but sometimes a decision has to be made to cross it. The cases you list cover a broad spectrum with limited information. There are many ways to gain intel before resorting to torture. But, once you decide to cross the line, you don't hold back.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 06:26 PM
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Torture is not used for confessions or information. It is used to break the individual down to their bare level.

It is almost always carried out within earshot or eyesight of other prisoners.

The security services already know the names, plans, numbers, dates etc.

This whole waterboarding episode is designed to illicit certain reactions..

1.I'm glad it is not me
2.They deserve it
3.Do they?
4.They deserve it
5. GOTO 1

People, we live in an age where technology has enabled us to be close to each other through communication.

Never before has there existed a medium where we can talk and express so rapidly with each other from the four corners.

And what do we do with this miracle?

We divide ourselves. We defeat each other.

Waterboarding? Try it at home folks. Properly, not like in this video.

P & L & H.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 

Here is the big difference. Our soldiers know that they will be watched after by trained medical staff as they are demonstrated the technique ONE TIME. They can also go home at the end of the day and sleep with their family. The prisoners know they will be waterboarded many times and will probably never see their families again. The circumstances make one of these much more horrible than the other. How many can figure out which one it is?



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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Originally posted by jfj123
Actually by all accounts, the impacted towers did sway quite a bit.


If by "quite a bit" you mean you can't see the structure move from ground level, I agree.


Also, the towers not falling immediately after impact means nothing.


It means the planes weren't solely responsible, like our non-engineer here was claiming. That DOES mean something. Furthermore he was wrong about a plane hitting a building necessitating that the building is therefore going to fall.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 06:54 PM
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I think he was going to stop after 6 seconds no matter how bad it was.
I mean, all he had happen to him was water poured into his mouth. Isnt water boarding something that takes time to soak the airways?

Dunno, he seemed pre-prepared with his little speach at the end too.

I think waterboarding is a minor form or torture, but it is torture.
This guy never intended to 'try' and sustain it.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
reply to post by jfj123
 

That's just it. Someone has to make a decision to draw the line, but sometimes a decision has to be made to cross it. The cases you list cover a broad spectrum with limited information. There are many ways to gain intel before resorting to torture. But, once you decide to cross the line, you don't hold back.



Here are some things that back up my point

CIA Found Torture Not Effective
liberalvaluesblog.com...

The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any “specific imminent attacks,” according to recently declassified Justice Department memos.

That undercuts assertions by former vice president Dick Cheney and other former Bush administration officials that the use of harsh interrogation tactics including waterboarding, which is widely considered torture, was justified because it headed off terrorist attacks…





A former FBI man who interrogated an al Qaeda leader said Wednesday extreme techniques used by the Bush administration were "ineffective, slow and unreliable" and caused the prisoner to stop talking.

www.cbsnews.com...


The contentious debate over so-called enhanced interrogation techniques took center stage Wednesday on Capitol Hill as a former FBI agent involved in the questioning of terror suspects testified that such tactics -- including waterboarding -- are ineffective.

Ali Soufan, an FBI special agent from 1997 to 2005, told members of a key Senate Judiciary subcommittee that such "techniques, from an operational perspective, are ineffective, slow and unreliable and harmful to our efforts to defeat al Qaeda."

edition.cnn.com...

Talk, not torture, gets the information
www.latimes.com...
This is an interesting article which explains how some individuals got information simply by talking to the 12 year old whereas others wanted to torture him for info.


Torture To Get Information Doesn't Work

One the more frustrating thing about all this discussion about torture is that people ignore the fact that torture is not just morally wrong, but it also just flat out doesn't work. Military experts who oppose torture don't oppose it because they are squeamish, but because it is such a poor way to get accurate information. As Anne Applebaum puts it:


Torture To Get Information Doesn't Work
www.pacificviews.org...

Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."


www.alternet.org...

No one has yet offered any validated evidence that torture produces reliable intelligence. While torture apologists frequently make the claim that torture saves lives, that assertion is directly contradicted by many Army, FBI, and CIA professionals who have actually interrogated al Qaeda captives. Exhibit A is the torture-extracted confession of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an al Qaeda captive who told the CIA in 2001, having been "rendered" to the tender mercies of Egypt, that Saddam Hussein had trained al Qaeda to use WMD. It appears that this confession was the only information upon which, in late 2002, the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state repeatedly claimed that "credible evidence" supported that claim, even though a now-declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report from February 2002 questioned the reliability of the confession because it was likely obtained under torture. In January 2004, al-Libi recanted his "confession," and a month later, the CIA recalled all intelligence reports based on his statements.



Exhibit B is the case of Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi deemed a "high-value" target by the CIA. After being beaten to an extent that he had several broken ribs, he was subjected to a form of crucifixion known as "Palestinian hanging." Forty-five minutes later, he was dead, never having revealed whatever vital, ticking-bomb information his American interrogator was seeking.


As you can see, there is no evidence to suggest torturing anyone is going to get us reliable intelligence. Torture DOES NOT WORK. It's that simple.

So why are they doing it? Because they're afraid that if something happens and they didn't do everything possible to prevent it, they'll be blamed even if those things just don't work. It's all about the politics of perception and not reality that motivates these people like cheney and bush.

[edit on 24-5-2009 by jfj123]



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Originally posted by jfj123
Actually by all accounts, the impacted towers did sway quite a bit.



If by "quite a bit" you mean you can't see the structure move from ground level, I agree.

At a height of approx 1360 ft, if the towers swayed 10 ft, do you honestly think you'd see it?


Also, the towers not falling immediately after impact means nothing.



It means the planes weren't solely responsible, like our non-engineer here was claiming.

Of course it does. The planes were the initiator. If the planes never hit the towers would still be standing. The planes initiated the chain reaction that felled the towers.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I think he was going to stop after 6 seconds no matter how bad it was.
I mean, all he had happen to him was water poured into his mouth. Isnt water boarding something that takes time to soak the airways?

Dunno, he seemed pre-prepared with his little speach at the end too.

I think waterboarding is a minor form or torture, but it is torture.
This guy never intended to 'try' and sustain it.


Well here are some actual videos of water boarding. And keep in mind that the persons being water boarded KNOW they are going to be safe.





FORMER NAVY SEAL VIDEO TAPED HIMSELF BEING WATERBOARDED

In this last video, a NAVY SEAL says he was water boarded twice and he said he felt like he was going to die. A NAVY SEAL SAID THIS !



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 07:46 PM
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So now the new question is, what do we do if we can't get information from water boarding?
Do we put bamboo shoots under their finger nails?

Do we rip their finger nails off all together?

Do we employ techniques used by nazi germany?

I mean, we need the info right? So where do we stop?

What if physical torture doesn't work on the suspect? Do we kidnap the suspects wife and have her raped over and over in front of him until he tells them what they want to know? I mean it's all for the greater good...right? RIGHT????

Do we beat his children with pipes until he speaks up??? As Pat Buchanin says in one of the video's I posted, "It's the MORAL thing to do...."

Now what if, after all that, it turns out HE'S INNOCENT...... How do we fix it? How do you un-torture someone, un-rape someone, un-beat innocent children?????? Please tell me, I'd like to know..

We know it happens. Thousands of prisoners in the US have been released after being found innocent.

The fact that anyone takes a pro-torture stance actually makes me sick


[edit on 24-5-2009 by jfj123]



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 10:02 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 


Hey man, im not saying its bad.
Dont get me wrong, i agree its a form of torture.

But the radio host in this particular demonstration , had his mind made up, and didnt even take 10 seconds to actually experience it.

It just makes the '' waterboarding is torture '' camp a bit, quick to jump on board.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Just saw the 9-11 documentary on National Georgraphic try and catch it if you can. This is Sunday just over at 11 East coast.
I think we need to all watch that and then think if we did the right thing by our interagations. I think you would rethink everything after watching it.
I for one am picking my teeth waiting for more revenge and blood.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 11:03 PM
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reply to post by itappearsthatway
 


I don't think revenge is going to come from torturing middle easterners or Moslems, and water boarding is supposed to be a means of attaining information.... It doesn't work and if it did you would have to use it on someone that lives in the western hemisphere to get results



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by jfj123
At a height of approx 1360 ft, if the towers swayed 10 ft, do you honestly think you'd see it?


I would consider that insignificant though, so I guess that's where our opinions differ. They swayed more in the wind, let's put it that way, and they did. They were built to.


The planes were the initiator. If the planes never hit the towers would still be standing. The planes initiated the chain reaction that felled the towers.


That's a theory. Theories are usually based on certain facts, or at least scientific ones are. We know that planes hit the buildings, ok. But they still stood, so we know that more was needed. So they were on fire for a while, alright. Lots of steel framed buildings have suffered much more intense fires and so we know what fires can do to steel frames, and it's absolutely no mystery. Then something totally unseen before happens, at least in engineering terms. It would be easy to say the planes and fires "did it," but you know some people actually have the unfortunate job of having to figure out how exactly it happened. And that's where a bunch of problems come up, both for myself and many thousands of other people who have actually looked at the data, compared to the actual theories presented by the same agencies. Not many people even know that a 3rd skyscraper, WTC7, fell that day. That is the definition of ignorance. But I digress.

The point is, 9/11 can't be used to justify expensive and bloody military conquests in the Middle East because it was orchestrated by people with inside access, not Muslims.



posted on May, 24 2009 @ 11:33 PM
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waterboarding == torture

torture != justified

EOF



posted on May, 25 2009 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by hypervigilant
reply to post by itappearsthatway
 


I don't think revenge is going to come from torturing middle easterners or Moslems, and water boarding is supposed to be a means of attaining information.... It doesn't work and if it did you would have to use it on someone that lives in the western hemisphere to get results


See the problem is it did supply results did you not read my previous post. You cant say it didnt provide information when Obamma actually released a cia memo saying it did and they actually stopped an attack on Los Angeles with this information.Now before you say the government lies this memo was not supposed to be seen by the public was a top secret briefing for the president so its not disinformation and wouldn't be fabricated because then there was no need to make the memo in the first place.So we established the water boarding did indeed supply useful intel. Is it torture yes it is is it physical abuse now we can differentiate Between physical and psychological. In interrogations the will must be broken or glorified one of the 2. And i don't believe Islamic radicals care about there egos so glorification is out.So that leaves breaking there resolve not to give the information and asking nicely wont work we tried i assure you. In a perfect world these games wouldn't have to be played and everyone would get along but until we make it to utopia we have to deal with the real world.



posted on May, 25 2009 @ 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
Mancow is a wuss if that gave him nightmares. Jesus we used to drown each other for fun in the pool when we were kids. If you all want to raise like 50k tax free you can water board me on and off for an hour or two.


If you were really drowning each other, you probably wouldn't be here right now. In case you haven't read a dictionary in a while.. Here's a pretty plain definition of the word as you obviously don't know what it means.

en.wikipedia.org...


Drowning is death from suffocation (asphyxia) caused by a liquid entering the lungs and preventing the absorption of oxygen leading to cerebral hypoxia and cardiac arrest.


Now, because you claim to have "drown" each other when you were kids, you believe that somehow this makes you some kind of expert or authority on enhanced interrogation techniques. Actually, it does not.
And why you would claim it does, I have no earthly idea.

-ChriS



posted on May, 25 2009 @ 02:47 AM
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Since so many of you "the gov't can do no wrong" cheerleaders are certain that waterboarding yields truthful and valid information, let's have Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the inner circle submit to the same course of waterboarding as the infamous Abu Z enjoyed. Was that 3 times a day in a single month at one point? I wonder if they would not each quickly "confess" to being the masterminds behind the recent Mumbai crisis, 911, the Oklahoma City bombing, the Davidian Compound massacre, Ruby Ridge, multiple child rapes, and worse. I doubt it would take nearly as long to hear them sing any song their waterboard administrator's wanted to hear.

[edit on 5/25/2009 by dubiousone]



posted on May, 25 2009 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by jfj123
As you can see, there is no evidence to suggest torturing anyone is going to get us reliable intelligence. Torture DOES NOT WORK. It's that simple.


My Oh My...look at the sources, it the Liberal Election Comittee...lol I'm gonna start up a Kool-Aid Factory as soon as I get me soma that Bail Out Money



posted on May, 25 2009 @ 03:34 AM
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Originally posted by WhatTheory
Just because Mancow is a wussy does not mean waterboarding is torture.


Waterboarding is NOT torture.
IF it was torture, then I guess the military tortures it's own troops since it is part of their training.
IF it was torture, that Shiek fellow would be dead since he got the treatment something like 83 times.

Waterboarding is mental and not physical. Apparently Mancow is not mentally tough.


How ignorant are you?!?

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
—UN Convention Against Torture



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