Originally posted by Sonya610
Rape is very common, most rapes are never reported. For someone to stand up and imply that up to 50% of rape convictions are based on LIES is offensive. In fact the vast majority of rapes are never reported, they are dark little secrets. So to imply that WOMEN are victimizing MEN by the odd false accusation is upsetting to many women.

I never implied that women are victimizing men like it is all women based on a few false claims. I said only that i wanted a fairer representation for men in court as the public tends to view any rape case badly, i suggested studies were carried out to give police officers better tools to detect false claims and i suggested studies were done to work out the number of false claims made in the past.

As for the 50% thing, i never claimed that it was up to 50% Sonya, well done on twisting that one lol. I said

"The false allegation rate is estimated between 1% and 50%. You i'm sure would see that as a ridiculous basis to start this all out on. I agree and it needs to be sorted out."

So here i am, saying the studies are really flawed and we need more because the percentages don't add up and you twist it to say i think it's up to 50%.

Please tell me how any of that is incredibly bad or implying that women are victimizing men. I'm getting tired of people claiming i am implying things which i absolutely am not.

Originally posted by Sonya610
This thread reeks of misogyny. Yeah so there are "female friends" involved. So what. It still reeks of it.
[edit on 22-5-2009 by Sonya610]

I've shown this thread to the friends invovled along with others. I am trying to get them to post but they are currently refusing as they see ATS as slightly crackpot. I will continue to pester them and see if i can't get something on here. However i would tell you Sonya that if you actually knew me, you'd find your whole misogyny quote hilarious. Oh well.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I really wish I didn't have to go...

because that's what it is about - the confusion about what it's really about

:-)

and please forgive me for that

I can only suggest you read the thread again because i made the points extremely clear. I outlined them in several posts and if you can't be bothered to read them then i don't know what to say. Just read my reply to Sonya in this post alone and you will see the main points i have outlined.

Originally posted by Sonya610


The implication is clearly that all women (even really good people that are friends) may lie and ruin a life by throwing around rape accusations. No men mind you, no boys, but WOMEN.

Oh Sonya how you tist things, I said all people can do bad things when pushed. I made that clear later on, did you miss it or ignore it so you can twist it to seem like i'm just a woman hater? Grow up.


Ok deffinitely going to bed now, goodnight everyone and i'll see ya tomorrow.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Maybe it is the fear of the power women can have, the male ego can be fragile and fearful, maybe this is a ego driven thread, or it's coming from the distrust of women he may feel, I have no idea.

Yes possibly so. Most of the friends are women, constantly surrounded by women, their opinions, their perfume, but yet...they are scary. And if you touch them they could accuse you of RAPE!!!! Because look at all the articles that show men were accused of rape! It is horrid and very very scary!

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984I never implied that women are victimizing men like it is all women based on a few false claims.

No you just implied that women, even really good honest decent female friends, could easily press FALSE CHARGES.

But wait, if I address you is it offtopic? The whole thing is weird. Yes, truly. There is a lot going on and it is NOT about those news articles.

the great novel To Kill A Mockingbird was about this topic


if you havent read it or watched the old black and white movie, PLZ DO! its one of the best stories ever written

but it deals with this topic, basically a woman claims that a black man raped her , but the truth came out that it was someone else who actually was raping her, but the innocent black man paid dearly for it (ill leave it at that)

its about rape, racism, lies, and how Good and the Truth triumph in the end

this is not a new topic, its as old as time itself

Originally posted by muzzleflash
its about rape, racism, lies, and how Good and the Truth triumph in the end

Except the charming story did NOT involve actual crime statistics. Or since you were making it a race issue, actualy Inter-Racial Crime Satistics.

Reality? How many interracial rapes? 36,000 to hmmm....0? As in statistically insignificant? Despite the frenzy for PC hype????

I really liked your nick. What was your point? Please post actual sources.

Originally posted by Sonya610
Oh I do not think you are making stuff up. I think you hear things and then color the statement/facts with your emotion.

How can you possibly assume that when you weren't privvy to the real life debate? You are assuming a great deal.

Originally posted by Sonya610
But the question is, after this lovely debate why not bring up this topic with your female friends? Truly. Print out this exchange and bring it the next time you meet up with them and get their honest opinions.

They have been linked the thread, some have read it but it's early in the morning so most are asleep. They'll get it when they wake up and send me their opinions as they always do. I have linked many threads from ATS to them in an attempt to get theminvolved in the site but they always see it as a crackpot website.

Originally posted by Sonya610
All you have really said is that your friends AGREE that rape is a harsh charge, as is murder, as is pedophilia, as is heroin. Felonies. Yup, all of them. Yet somehow this has been construed as a "hidden power" that is often weilded against innocent men due to female spitefulness.

Actually no they didn't just agree to it being bad and if you had read the thread you would see that, i think you didn't read the entire thread otherwise you would know this. Either that or you yourself have coloured this thread with emotion and ignored many things.

My friends said it was a terrible thing that women falsly accuse men but it is a "trump card". They didn't say they would use it, they thought it was awful but they admitted the power of the word, the fact that some women misuse it and the problems men face when confronted with false accusations. I would think those are rather logical points based in reality. My friends bless them are rather good at putting their emotions aside.

Originally posted by Sonya610
I suggest you research the topic more and realize that male spitefulness has much more frequent and far harsher physical repercussions.

Hang on a second, i've had people have a go at me for just picking out the female side. I did this because the debate i was having with friends was about women at the time and i never considered the other side. Yet you go fourth and accuse men of being worse? I think this says an awful lot about you and your views in this thread, you are obviously deeply biased in your opinion.

Originally posted by Sonya610
Read the first few posts. Apparently OP has MANY female friends, and discussed this with him, and they agreed that rape is a horrid and scary accusation (as is murder, and other felonies).

Then the OP goes on to say that he wonders if his female friends would accuse innocent men of rape if they were "pushed". Oh and after that he goes on to say his friends are "good people".

My friends are good people and i explained that anyone when pushed can do bad things. Men, women it doesn't matter when pushed people can do bad things, claim things that aren't true. This doesn't make the person claiming it a bad person, just someone who isn't thinking clearly. Often when people have claimed things out of anger then calmed down they're stuck in a situation where they cannot say they were lying without seeming awful. I think this happened in most cases where women have claimed to be raped and then found to be lying.

Originally posted by Sonya610
The implication is clearly that all women (even really good people that are friends) may lie and ruin a life by throwing around rape accusations. No men mind you, no boys, but WOMEN.

Actually i mean all, don't twist it please. At the time the conversation was talking about women claiming false rape. That was based on a discussion that i had earlier which i had buzzing around my head. It was not biased, it was not based on sex purposely it was just the debate i had had and when i sat down to type it i wanted to make sure i covered everything before i forgot it.

Originally posted by Sonya610
And the OP hangs out with them all the time, most of his friends are women. But the rape thing is still apparently paramount in his mind, the fact they (his good friends) would accuse innocent men of such if they were angry or disappointed.

Does that strike you as a bit....errrm.....????

[edit on 22-5-2009 by Sonya610]

Paramount? Ok this is now nothing more than personal attacks. The debate came about because my friends started discussing the girl in the news who had been killed after a rape allegation. This is a disgusting attempt at discrediting me Sonya and yo ushould be damn well ashamed. I hope people can see how manipulative this comment is. It is bang out of order.

Originally posted by Sonya610
Yes possibly so. Most of the friends are women, constantly surrounded by women, their opinions, their perfume, but yet...they are scary. And if you touch them they could accuse you of RAPE!!!! Because look at all the articles that show men were accused of rape! It is horrid and very very scary!

Again, personal attacks. This is getting beyond a joke, why not stick to the facts instead of taking shots at me Sonya? Are you that dishonest?

Originally posted by Sonya610
No you just implied that women, even really good honest decent female friends, could easily press FALSE CHARGES.

But wait, if I address you is it offtopic? The whole thing is weird. Yes, truly. There is a lot going on and it is NOT about those news articles.

Actually i implied that anoyne can do bad things when pushed and that is true. My one friend referred to it as a "trump card". She said it with disgust, let me be absolutely clear here as she'll read this thread and i don't want her thinking that i was saying she thought it was good or funny. She was disgusted by the notion women would use it in that way. However if something terrible happened i wonder how many women might consider it a "trump card".

However i never said most would, i never said all would, i never even said the majority would use it. I said the minority do, but most see the power of it. That doesn't mean they would use it, just they understand how horrible it is.

You addressing me is not off topic, you insinuating things about my character is off topic. I have been forced to do the same, to address the points you have made about me, twisting of my words, insinuating things and i have had to point those out. That has meant this thread has descended into personal attacks and that annoys the hell out of me because i wanted to debate the posts, not the poster.




[edit on 22-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Sonya610


Except the charming story did NOT involve actual crime statistics. Or since you were making it a race issue, actualy Inter-Racial Crime Satistics.

That is another issue i have taken here and when i asked someone to provide statistics for false allegations of rape there were unable to do so because the statistics, reliable ones, do not exist. I would like those to exist so the debate could be more accurately gauged.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

not sure if this has been mentioned yet but... all sex offenders have an especially hard time in prison (and rightly so). sex offenders, especially convicted rapists have a way of getting raped and murdered in the clink. i think we all are aware of this.

sending an innocent person to such a fate would be nothing less than criminal.

rape usually carries about a 5 year sentence... depending. far too lax imo. personally i think rape should be a capital offense (punishable by death) that is held to the same 'beyond the shadow of doubt' standard of proof.

on a lighter note...
this reminds me of a being very young and getting caught "playing doctor" with the little neighbor girl. she actually initiated the game of curiosity. when the adults found us she immediately shifted gears and started crying. the adults in turn immediately became accusatory in their line of questioning. i didn't know what was going on as this was my first game of 'doctor'. i didn't realize that we were doing something wrong, as innocent as it may have been. i say we, yet she was never in any threat of being in trouble. but my bacon sure was on the burner. it was assumed that i was the culprit, that i harmed her in some way. while she was being consoled by her parents i was put to the flame by mine.

It seems like every time a there's thread about something truly interesting, it has to degenerate into something yucky. I've known misogynists, and the Op doesn't really strike me as one. There seem to be some attempts to defend women in general here, when the OP really isn't talking about women in general, but about a very select minority. It seems like a few of the ladies on this thread don't like the implication that women lie. All people lie, sometimes, it causes the death of others, so let's just move beyond that little point.
I can totally understand the point the OP is trying to make, being falsely accused of rape is a horrible experience. No one is trying to say that rape itself isn't a terrible thing, no one is trying to defend rapists here or to play down the plight of true victims. False rape allegations are a bit more damaging than 'normal' crimes. If you get convicted of rape, falsely, you get to 'enjoy' all the things in life that an actual rapist does, assuming you live through your sentence. Like going door-to-door and telling all your neighbors that you are a convicted sex offender. I'm sure they will all believe you when you tell them that you were innocent.
I have two experiences in my personal life that reflect both sides of this fence. Firstly, my older sister was raped when she was 14, at night, by so-called 'friends', on the sidewalk, in plain view, but no one bothered to look out their windows to see what was going on. So I can tell you from first hand experience what the family of a rape victim goes through, and that rapes scar for life. She has never been the same. Her relationships with men especially, are usually self-deprecating. I can still remember the look on her face when she first came through the front door, and told us what happened.
Secondly, my cousin is serving 28 years for allegations that even the apparent victim has said were false. In private of course, where no one could prove she said anything. I am not trying to belittle the situation of actual victims, there is a distinction, one that I think is not being appreciated here. There seems to be a lot of 'What's your point' -type comments that seem to imply that we should just accept these acts as fact, and move along. That is the wrong attitude to have IMO. All false accusations should be addressed. Not avoided because some people consider it a taboo. The reason why the OP is not including all accusations is simple, because that's not what this thread is about. It's about one facet, one side of the story that you don't actually get to see a lot of, and I am beginning to understand why, given some of the reactions in this thread.

Chrono

Originally posted by riley
Sorry but your friends were having sex with a minors.. they could be charged with rape legally even if they were in a relationship. That is not a false rape claim.

..and immature? 15 and 16 year old girls generally are.

Btw. Many false rape claims are NOT made.. that was the point I was arguing.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by riley]

I don't care about the point you're arguing, it's irrelevant to the thread. Nobody is saying that rape doesn't happen often or that most victims of rape aren't really victims of rape, we're simply stating facts that women use the word as a weapon quite often.

I know girls are immature...I wasn't saying they weren't.
Also, 16 is legal age of consent here in this state.
These people weren't my friends, I just knew them.
I know they were still considered minors though, as the legal age of consent is a kind of grey area, but that aside, this was not "rape" in the classic sense of forced sex. It was just that the girls got caught (in both cases) and said....oh....HE RAPED ME. That's about the size of it.

But yeah, everyone knows that rape does happen, this isn't a woman-hating thread or a "let's glorify rape" thread so come off your high horse.

:edit:
You took the words out of my mouth Chrono.
:edit edit:
Geez, people are really twisting the OP's words around on him. I would make an innocent joke here but I'm terrified of the ladies here by now.
It's the interweb people, chill out.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by Mr Headshot]

[edit on 23-5-2009 by Mr Headshot]

Originally posted by Mr Headshot
I don't care about the point you're arguing, it's irrelevant to the thread. Nobody is saying that rape doesn't happen often or that most victims of rape aren't really victims of rape, we're simply stating facts that women use the word as a weapon quite often.

I know girls are immature...I wasn't saying they weren't.
Also, 16 is legal age of consent here in this state.
These people weren't my friends, I just knew them.
I know they were still considered minors though, as the legal age of consent is a kind of grey area, but that aside, this was not "rape" in the classic sense of forced sex. It was just that the girls got caught (in both cases) and said....oh....HE RAPED ME. That's about the size of it.

If they were still considered minors then it counts as stat rape.

But yeah, everyone knows that rape does happen, this isn't a woman-hating thread or a "let's glorify rape" thread so come off your high horse.

High horse? You were defending a grown men who knowingly had sex with a 15 year old girl. "oh he raped me!" she said? Yet he knew how old she was.. sorry but I do not see how he is a victim of circumstance. He KNEW there would be a chance of him being charged with stat rape so how can he be her victim? Even if she didn't claim rape.. legally it is. Doesn't matter what she says.

:edit:
You took the words out of my mouth Chrono.
:edit edit:
Geez, people are really twisting the OP's words around on him. I would make an innocent joke here but I'm terrified of the ladies here by now.
It's the interweb people, chill out.

I find it ironic that you claim this isn't a woman bashing thread yet then come out claiming us ladies are all out to get you. We haven't taken you out of context.. thats just something thats said when you and others cannot answer an argument.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

It is totally the fault of a faulty judicial system, corrupt officials who actually cultivate lying.

Originally posted by AllinTheMind89
Edit: The title of thread is EXTREMELY misleading lol. I thought it was about the word "retard"

So did I! I was sure I wouldn't be the only one.

In regard to him saying it is a minority.. yes he did say that. He also then started saying there were no actual studies to see how often it really happens which suggests he does not really believe the official "in the minority" statistics. That is contradictory and I think it's unfair to accuse us of not understanding and being "angry users" when he's already contradicted himself many times imo.

I would please ask that opinions be respected without them being dismissed as (implied) feminist ravings. Either me and other ladies here have legit opinions or we are all out to get him and to take him out of context.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
So did I! I was sure I wouldn't be the only one.

In regard to him saying it is a minority.. yes he did say that. He also then started saying there were no actual studies to see how often it really happens which suggests he does not really believe the official "in the minority" statistics. That is contradictory and I think it's unfair to accuse us of not understanding and being "angry users" when he's already contradicted himself many times imo.

*Shakes head*

It says nothing of the sort. It is very likely to still be a minority but the studies need to be done to judge exactly how common it is. Why are you scared of finding out the real number even though it's probably around 5-10%? That's my highest estimate btw (note i said ESTIMATE). Problem is studies range from 1-50%. Go and look that up. I hate innacurate statistics and this discussion would be far easier if we had good studies to draw upon, don't you think?

Originally posted by riley
I would please ask that opinions be respected without them being dismissed as (implied) feminist ravings. Either me and other ladies here have legit opinions or we are all out to get him and to take him out of context.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

I would please ask my opinions are respected without them being dismissed as (implied) mysoginistic ravings. You did take me out of context, others have seen that and you just refuse to because you were to angry over the thread subject.

Well it seems several ladies have posted and understood that i was not be a mysogynist, was not demonising women and generally that you and a few others did over react. The attacks on my motives or person have been ridiculous. If people stuck to the old saying on ATS of "Attack the post not the poster" then this entire debate would have been much calmer and more productive.

To help this out i'm going to put everything in question and answer form, that way hopefully my views cannot be twisted and it will be easier to answer. These questions are for everyone, not just Riley.



1. Would you agree that studies show a stupid range of numbers in regards to the false report rate? 1-50% is nowhere near good enough for us to accurately draw opinions.

2. Would you also agree it is therefore a good idea to get a handle on a true figure, especially as this would stop lawyers speculating in courts.

3. Would you agree this is a logical, careful approach that holds no bias, only a need for clear statistics?

4. Would you support more specialist police officers being trained to deal with rape cases so that they can more easily tell the false accusations whilst making sure they provide better support for real victims?

5. Would you agree that an accusation of rape is far harsher on a persons life than an accusation of theft for example.

6. Would you support supression of the media speculating on cases of rape which influence the public at large. Whilst this wouldn't effect the jury on that particular case, it would effect any future jury for other cases. Obviously they should be free to comment on convicted rapists, but not on ongiong cases or simple accusations.

7. Finally, would you agree for harsher sentences for men and women who do falsly claim rape? Because at the moment the sentences are either short or suspended. I can understand your concern that this would discourage women from coming forward, but if we had the better trained officers this would hopefully counter that.

I look forward to your views Riley and the views of others.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

[edit on 23-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by Kailassa


The fact of the matter is that men have traditionally been able to root and run, leaving a woman holding the baby. Their only worry in the past is that the woman they do this to might be into doing it herself, and may have picked up a disease she passes onto them. While the woman had not only the disease to worry about, but possible unwanted motherhood and lifelong shame as well.

Originally posted by Kailassa
In most types of crime this is not a big hassle. However when it comes to a women bringing a rape charge, this has led to her being followed around and filmed by private investigators to see if she drinks or wears short skirts. A women often has to undergo the most frightful character assassination in court, while the man, even if it's his 20th rape, can go through the case with no reference being allowed to be made to his past or to his style of dress.

Even before court the woman is often treated badly, with the police automatically disbelieving the story, particularly if the girl is not left with injuries that prove she was physically assaulted. But the fact is, if the woman is much smaller or more timid than the man, she can be intimidated or held down without leaving damage that will show later.

Here it is again, why is there so many posts all going back to blaming men, and just focusing on men's pathetic morals, instead of the actual topic?

I bet your a woman too right? What's going on?

All I'm seeing is people reminding everyone that men are bad and have it easy, and women are all the ones who have it bad, and we should feel sorry for women, because men are the evil ones.

Well of course some women have it bad, the world already knows this, and it's focused on daily all the time.

So why in a thread about focusing on the men instead are we focusing on how hard it is for women?

Why must we be reminded of this?
Most people already know this.

Why can't we focus on the minority of men who suffer in these rape cases for a while? is that against the rules or something? Must it always be about women's pain?
People are always sensitive to topics about women's pain, but once people start talking about men's pain, people suddenly lose all sensitivity and compassion? wtf? Are we forgetting that men have emotions too?

Why has this thread turned into a women vs men thread!?






[edit on 23-5-2009 by _Phoenix_]