The Power Of The "R" Word

This sort of thing has seemed to have gained momentum ever since political correctness reared its ugly head. This sort of tragedy struck someone very close to me. This gentleman was set-up by a vindictive cousin of his who accused him of molesting her young daughter. It came to light that the cousin coached her daughter to lie in order to cause trouble for the man over some perceived "slight" against the cousin. However, instead of wanting to get to the truth of the matter, the prosecutor opted to put the guy on the sex offender registry, which basically fuined the man's life. It just seems to me like anyone can do anything to another in these crazy, mixed-up times and get away with it. And BTW, the vindictive cousin was recently arrested for possession of a half-oz. of meth and got only probation.WTF?

Originally posted by M157yD4wn
...
i do not go clubbing mainly to get some lay. but if it comes about that i do get some, then that doesn't hurt either.

and getting to know the girl im talking to, at a club, is not how you make it seem in your statement. this is not a first date. at most there is 30 minutes total of talk between us, and depending on intent, most of that talk is complete bs. filled with lies anyway. you have no idea how many fake names i've gotten. or given for that matter.

and alcohol makes it much harder to use my critical thinking skills in assessing female age. especially when these girls already look legal age. Add alcohol an they begin to look much older than they looked before alcohol. And immaturity sounds like tipsiness.

The idea that you can "get to know" a stranger at a club through thirty minutes of alcohol influenced chatting is just funny.

Perhaps people need a social primer on what getting to know someone means. It takes weeks, not minutes.

Having sex with someone you have only known 30 minutes is a form of Russian roulette. You know there could be a bullet in the barrel. Not just the bullet of a possible rape charge, but also the bullets of STDs and unplanned parenthood.

I'm not going on about how these under-age girls have lied to get into a club and may lie even worse if they get cold feet about being your easy lay, because that's obvious. They probably need good parenting years back and never got it, and now are a potential danger to any adult guy they meet.

But you are an adult and you know the situation out there. If you have sex with a minor you are legally a rapist. If you have sex with someone too drunk to know what they are doing you can legally be found guilty of rape. Same problem as with a minor; if the person is not competent to give their agreement, they are legally considered to have not agreed.
And here you are picking up girls who you don't know, who may be under-age, and who have been drinking.

Honey, speaking as a friend, just don't do it. You know the risks. Nothing will make those risks go away,
It's are not worth it.

Originally posted by Kailassa Having sex with someone you have only known 30 minutes is a form of Russian roulette. You know there could be a bullet in the barrel. Not just the bullet of a possible rape charge, but also the bullets of STDs and unplanned parenthood.

Honey, speaking as a friend, just don't do it. You know the risks. Nothing will make those risks go away,
It's are not worth it.

I hesitate to disagree with another female on this thread...but that is a bit overly dramatic.

Some people do NOT like sex with strangers, and that is fine. I have learned a lot of women really do not WANT to have sex with strangers, they honestly are only compelled to do the deed after they have known the guy a while, though they often claim it is because of "self-restraint" and safety and the like. It is easy to show self-restraint when you don't want to do it to begin with.

Others really do like it. I have always preferred it, I may be a bit like a guy in that way but fresh meat is always fun and more exciting.

Realistically people have been doing it for AGES and these days it really is not all that risky if one practices safe sex. 100 years ago it was different, a case of Syphillis would be a death sentence. But nowdays HIV has never hit the straight population all that hard (well depending on the racial demographic of course), and while Herpes is pretty common in fact 90% of the people that have it never have one sign, and never know it. The STD thing is way overblown.

The underage thing is a concern, one I have never had to worry about.But realistically if they are meeting in an 18+ or 21+ club is it really likely to end in prosecution? I would suggest that if possible, get some PICS of the girl with you at the club. Most have cameras on the cell phones these days, if by some freak occurance it did end up in the legal system pictures of the girl in an adult nightclub would cover ones story.

Other than that the likelihood of getting hit for statutory rape for a one night stand in a nightclub is pretty rare. Now if you CONTINUE to see them, that would bring up more risks. And of course always use condoms. The girl gets knocked up with your offspring and that can be a lifetime mess.

[edit on 24-5-2009 by Sonya610]

I think in the UK we are lucky the age limit is 16.

That way it's less likely to mistake a 17 year old for a 18 year old etc and get into trouble.

Anyway I've really never understood this law, it's really just silly when you really think about it.

If you like a girl and she likes you, how is being 17 years old going to be any different from being 18 year old? When I turned 18, I didn't suddenly feel different!?

My point is, relationships are complicated, and such laws are TOO simple, and cannot be used properly for such a complicated subject.

p.s I've also seen many times guys in their early to mid 20's going out with a girl 16-18, who are in love, and are amazing together, and the girl get's treated very well, and they are still together 5 years later.

And that's what it's REALLY about in the end, that's what is really important, the intentions and how they treat a girl. It would be a crime to call such a beautiful relationship ...."rape"

At the same time I've seen 17 year old guys treat 17 year old girls so bad, it's truly evil.

It's all about intentions.




[edit on 24-5-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
The only thing i will address is the ID thing. I'm sure if a guy asks to see a girls ID when they're thinking of going home together that girl will be rather weirded out by it. So why would a guy who wants to have sex ruin his chances when he's in a club for people over 18 years of age?

Hi again IR,

I would say he would be doing it because he is a responsible adult who is worried about all the under aged drunk girls who might change their minds somewhere along the line but yes, clearly he isn't and that's why his in trouble. To blame it on a vindictive girl is confusing cause and effect.

When you enter that club you basically state you are 18 at least, therefore any guy who ends up with a girl from there should not be prosecuted for stat rape.

Your also not supposed to drink or use illegal substances at such clubs but we all know there is no such problems in these clubs. How many people that enter such a club goes in believing that everything that happens inside is legal i don't know but in my experience it's not so many. To suggest that he is a mostly innocent victim ( he did have sex with girl he barely knew) is to assume that i trust your or his version of events which i don't and wont. Perhaps he should sue the club for letting in very jail bait that drew him to go there in search of a easy lay? Talk about biting the hand that 'feeds' ( in this case under age girls) you. ....

If you think the guy should go to prison, you are basically siding with a girl who has lied about her age, consensually had sex then because she gets in troble with her parents or something like that cries rape to get out of trouble.

Yes, because i don't side with guys who has sex with underage girls they just met in clubs. Why would i take his word about this whole 'consensual' thing? Would you like to go look up the statistics about how many men are by legal definitions rapist, whatever they may believe themselves to be? Why do you presume that it wasn't rape just because she only admitted to it when it came out that she had sex? Couldn't that just mean that she didn't have much reason left to lie and in fact had the law on her side?

Are you honestly telling me, that in such a specific situation that this is ok? As i said it took him a year to clear himself and the deciding factor was that the girl had claimed she was 18 by entering the club.

So the much maligned system managed to protect him from the 'crazy' girl after all despite the fact that he did break the law? Why should he have his name cleared for having sex with a minor , 'consensual', or not? Why is the system only seen to work when it protects your friends?

I'm sorry but this is not how the law works, i won't be responding to the rest of your post because as you stated at the outset you are close minded on the topic. Whilst i admire your honesty (that is sincere) i cannot abide by a closed mind who would instantly side with any woman making a claim.

And yet your only happy with the law because the girl didn't in the end manage to prove that she was raped? Does that mean that you think half of the men who are arrested for rape and who eventually walk away are in fact not guilty? That half, or a good proportion of that half, of women who go to the police are knowingly perjuring themselves by making a false allegation of some sort? That is what you seem to be implying and i don't like that at all.

I don't side with either, i wait until evidence comes along or the most convincing testimony. That is how it is supposed to work.

Yes and that doesn't work as is proved by the fact that so few men ( unless the women are practically all lying?) ever get sent to jail. The system is simply not set up to bring women justice and until that changes i will side with the side that isn't getting justice.

Your post however does make my point rather brilliantly. That men rarely get a fair trial, or even a fair police interview because the public is so biased towards the womans side.

Yeah, poor 'us' men folk. It's such a dangerous world out there for 'us' guys with all these crazy women just begging to have sex only to change ( in 'our' view any ways) their mind afterwards.

So again i apologise for not being a typical male in feeling so very threatened by these devious&dangerous girls.

Stellar

hey there Imaginary

not sure if you're still around – I’m sure you’re wore out on this one :-)

I was unavoidably detained – sorta – and since I’d reached a point where I didn’t feel I had anything useful to contribute – I didn’t

especially since I could see trying to communicate with you was going to be that much more difficult – what with you’re not really reading what people say and all

to be honest – I find this thread of yours to be very strange – based on nothing more substantial than some chit chat you’ve had with what could be – as far as I’m concerned – some kind of imaginary female posse

a gaggle of young ladies you consistently reference as if they might know something more about any of this than the room full of women you’ve been attempting to communicate with here

I’d ask you: what are you really after with all this?

I’d ask if I thought you knew – but I’m not sure that you do

however – since you’ve asked these questions – the least I can do is respond:

Would you agree that studies show a stupid range of numbers in regards to the false report rate? 1-50% is nowhere near good enough for us to accurately draw opinions.

I would agree that the “numbers” show that you didn’t have anything to go by but your own assumptions, imagination and anxiety when you started this thread

which is not the same thing as my saying that you don’t have a point – but it does go towards my saying – you’re argument is about a personal concern of yours – even if it is your own personal concern about men being falsely accused of rape

many of the people posting in this thread have actually been on your side – though you might not see it – it is difficult to stand by and do nothing when someone has been accused of something they didn’t do – so, I understand your anger

what I don’t understand is your inability to understand why your argument for apples has a negative effect on the situation of oranges

and your condescending opening post really, really rubbed the oranges the wrong way

everything that came after that was no longer a debate – it was about you defending a misstep you could have corrected much earlier on – but you chose not to

Would you also agree it is therefore a good idea to get a handle on a true figure, especially as this would stop lawyers speculating in courts.

this tells me you don’t understand how the legal system works (or doesn’t work – depending on the situation)

statistics are not going to influence an individual case in court. You seem to think that if somehow we possessed this magical number – everybody – lawyers included (and, seriously – get real Imaginary) would look at each other and mutter “we’ve been such fools...”

no – if a case makes it that far – the process is about whittling away speculation and trying to prove to a jury what actually happened – by both the prosecution and the defense

Would you agree this is a logical, careful approach that holds no bias, only a need for clear statistics?

no – absolutely not – bias is built in

you want a perfect system where everyone ends up knowing what really happened in the end – or sooner, so that we can just do away with the need to prosecute

it’s what we all want imaginary – but sadly – there is no such perfect system

so, we settle for close is close enough sometimes – bias and injustice are going to be part of that imperfect system

Would you support more specialist police officers being trained to deal with rape cases so that they can more easily tell the false accusations whilst making sure they provide better support for real victims?

no – it isn’t supposed to be up to the police to determine guilt or innocence – you need to let go of that fantasy

if it went the way you wanted it to – it would come down to a handful of people being able to sit down with a young lady and just say - “I think she’s lying – she’s got no case”

I don’t care if those people are gifted telepaths – I personally want them no where near this process

Would you agree that an accusation of rape is far harsher on a persons life than an accusation of theft for example.

no – I think it appears that way to you – for whatever reason

Would you support supression of the media speculating on cases of rape which influence the public at large. Whilst this wouldn't effect the jury on that particular case, it would effect any future jury for other cases. Obviously they should be free to comment on convicted rapists, but not on ongiong cases or simple accusations.

absolutely not

first – there are already things in place that restrict information the media can and cannot print when it comes to legal cases

again – the system is imperfect – but even if we could arrange for this to be done the way you wanted – it wouldn’t help you as much as you think it would

Finally, would you agree for harsher sentences for men and women who do falsly claim rape? Because at the moment the sentences are either short or suspended. I can understand your concern that this would discourage women from coming forward, but if we had the better trained officers this would hopefully counter that.

why are the sentences short – or suspended do you think?

this is funny to me - in a way - because, we all have ideas about what is or isn't a harsh enough punishment for a given crime

you seem to think it's not enough punishment as it is right now - I begin to suspect this is somehow more about punishing someone than anything else

you will, maybe, argue that it’s because women always get off too easy

but it isn’t difficult to see that the entire subject of - not rape - but the accusation itself is a muddy area - making it difficult for everyone to maneuver

the thing you don’t seem to want to look at or factor in is: many of the reported claims of rape – real or false – never go anywhere

why is that Imaginary?

and as to the better trained officers - I don’t understand why you can’t see: their role is not to determine guilt or innocence

it’s not up to them (though I have no doubt that it happens consistently) to weed out or allow in to the system cases based on their hunches – personal or professional

this is why we have the courts

so Imaginary – to sum up: think about what you’re saying before you say it

there’s always a better way to say something – it could have saved you a lot of grief – and this could have been a very different kind of discussion

I can completely agree with imagine reality,i think he is from the UK in which case it makes even more sense given the attitude of a large percentage of teenage girls these days.They wouldn't think twice about crying rape for a number of trivial reasons.But like someone pointed out given this,it drives home how hard it would be for real rape victims to step forward.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Sorry but i won't be bothering with it, you are constantly speculating about either my motives or now "an imaginary female posse" so to that kind of condescension i won't reply in full.. I would point out it seems that some women in this thread did see i was not going after women or anything of that nature, some of them saw it as nothing more than a question, without bad motives. To them i say thanks because they quashed their emotional response and read my posts for what they actually contained. I wonder why it is you read something very different than they did?

You say a room full of women here in this thread yet not all of them agreed with you, unless of course they aren't women, will that be the next attack? Oh well.

I've had respect for you on other threads but your behavior here was sad. You read to much into what you thought was being said and yet you accuse me of doing the same. As for the topic itself i think it's been talked into the ground, the point i wanted to get accross did (for some people) but was muddied with baseless accusations of mysogyny. I've got another long thread going on so i'll stick to that.

Thank you to everyone for contributing.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Sorry but i won't be bothering with it

this surprises me not at all

...you are constantly speculating about either my motives or now "an imaginary female posse" so to that kind of condescension i won't reply in full...

:-)

condescension is really only a one way street in your world - isn't it Imaginary?

I would point out it seems that some women in this thread did see i was not going after women or anything of that nature, some of them saw it as nothing more than a question, without bad motives.

and this is the part where I bring up - you just don't read - do you?

To them i say thanks because they quashed their emotional response and read my posts for what they actually contained.

we might expect you to do the same

I wonder why it is you read something very different than they did?

if you paid attention to anything I wrote you wouldn't be asking me this question

I've had respect for you on other threads...

but, not this one? what could the reason possibly be?

...but your behavior here was sad.

I see my participation in this thread as maybe being a little sad

or not

your anger is amusing to me at this point

do you wonder why?

why don't you read through my posts Imaginary?

come on - give it a try...

:-)

As for the topic itself i think it's been talked into the ground...

no - it really hasn't - but, as you wish...

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


You act shocked and blind-sided by this response. You are not blind-sided (assuming you are a rational person).

A few months back you posted your views on rape material and you found yourself apologizing profusely as well.

So do not act like you are the victim here. If you are the victim, you set yourself up for it.

Originally posted by Sonya610

You act shocked and blind-sided by this response. You are not blind-sided (assuming you are a rational person).

A few months back you posted your views on rape material and you found yourself apologizing profusely as well.

Erm i don't think i ever apologisded once as i was saying at the time that the material was disgusting, i never said otherwise. Don't try and make stuff up Sonya. I expected some emotional responses on this thread, i did not expect baseless accusations.

Originally posted by Sonya610
So do not act like you are the victim here. If you are the victim, you set yourself up for it.

Sorry Sonya but it's a debating forum where we are supposed to stick to the topic, attack the post not the poster remember. Not a victim, but not going to bother with people like yourself when you can't stay on topic.


Spiramirabilis

It's not anger, it's a sadness that some people couldn't stick on topic. But hey if you think i'm angry and that amuses you then enjoy



[edit on 25-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

On an ATS thread that is devoted to Rape as a Video Game you said:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Are we then to say that rape scenes in movies give a negative view of women? I'm sure those scenes turn some people on.

It doesn't harm anyone, there is no research to say it harms anyone and in fact there are statistics to suggest it has beneficial effects!

Then you start back-peddling....

Hold on, i don't enjoy these games, please don't insinuate i do. Unless you were talking about the people who actually do but as you've directly responded i'm not sure what you meant.

But wait, you started it ALL OFF by saying your opinions came from your MULTITUDE OF FEMALE FRIENDS.

I've now asked this question to everyone i know, most of them are women. The responses are mostly in support of the game, maybe it's the type of people i surround myself with but they understand that freedom includes things existing that disgust you. All of them without exception thought this game was utterly horrific (a point i agree with) and yet only 1 wants it banned. One out of 23 i sent it to.

LOL...yeah totally different situation huh? An ATS thread where you ranted on about rape, and the benefit or material that featured rape, and mentioned your MANY female friends. No similariarity at all. Nope. None.

And I do not believe that quoting other ATS threads is a violation of the rules. If my opinions are then fine, edit the opinion, NOT the quotes.

Nothing odd here, let's just move along people! No one is fixated on rape here!

[edit on 25-5-2009 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610



And yes I realize you are typing out some overly long response that I will not acknowledge.

But please address THIS POINT: The statistics that say rape entertainment has positive effects? Please provide links.

reply to post by Sonya610


Nothing but quote mining Sonya, i won't be typing a long reply because there just isn't any point. I did not back peddle, i simply stated that the game came under free speech. Oh and you forgot to quote some other bits didn't you, you forgot to quote where i say i also support the existence of games that involve men being raped.

It's a game, not real, hence allowed under free speech. Pretty simple really.

I didn't start that thread either simply it became popular and i commented. You know maybe i comment because i think it's an important issue that is never addressed. But hey Sonya you keep insinuating things, whilst it is an attempt to damage me it just shows you as being dishonest.

[edit on 25-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


ah - Imaginary...

It's not anger, it's a sadness that some people couldn't stick on topic. But hey if you think i'm angry and that amuses you then enjoy

if it amuses you to think I'll buy that - then enjoy

:-)

what you'll do to get out of responding to anybody else directly...

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

if it amuses you to think I'll buy that - then enjoy

:-)

what you'll do to get out of responding to anybody else directly...

*sighs* Buy whatever you wish or don't, you're wrong but i cannot prove it so erm.

Peace.

Just stop guys.......just stop....

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Nothing but quote mining Sonya, i won't be typing a long reply because there just isn't any point. I did not back peddle, i simply stated that the game came under free speech. Oh and you forgot to quote some other bits didn't you, you forgot to quote where i say i also support the existence of games that involve men being raped.

It's a game, not real, hence allowed under free speech. Pretty simple really.

LOL. Quote mining? As in quote mining YOUR rather ODD and extreme opinions on the topic?

See the weird thing is....i am the LEAST conversative when it comes to odd fetish stuff (except animals...that is just wrong).

But well...you seek you find huh? You wanted it, you found it. Too bad it is just in text, as I am sure visuals would have served better!

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Just stop guys.......just stop....

They won't stop because they can only win by insinuating things about the creator of the thread (me). They won't stop because they believe they're making me angry and they want a response so they can report it.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Just stop guys.......just stop....

Stop defending Phoenix. I will assume you have no such attractions, or repulsions, so just watch it play out.