US: Census idiot in my driveway threatening the police

Actually you have to let a person conducting a census do their business.

(thanks to obdurate replica for the USC citation)

Sec. 223, Title 13, U.S. Code, Chapter 7, Subtitle 2

"Section 223. Refusal, by owners, proprietors, etc., to assist census employees

Whoever, being the owner, proprietor, manager, superintendent, or
agent of any hotel, apartment house, boarding or lodging house,
tenement, or other building, refuses or willfully neglects, when
requested by the Secretary or by any other officer or employee of
the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof, acting
under the instructions of the Secretary, to furnish the names of
the occupants of such premises, or to give free ingress thereto and
egress therefrom to any duly accredited representative of such
Department or bureau or agency thereof, so as to permit the
collection of statistics with respect to any census provided for in
subchapters I and II of chapter 5 of this title, or any survey
authorized by subchapter IV or V of such chapter insofar as such
survey relates to any of the subjects for which censuses are
provided by such subchapters I and II, including, when relevant to
the census or survey being taken or made, the proper and correct
enumeration of all persons having their usual place of abode in
such premises, shall be fined not more than $500.

That means come and go.

Also, someone show me where it says in the constitution that the government cannot know where you live. I'll be waiting for that one.
"

If they use GPS without asking how many people live in the house, maybe they are simply mapping the house out so that they can use thermal imaging satellites to determine how many people live there.

Also, don't forget the 'common law vs. commercial law' arguments of sovereignty. If ANYBODY living in the house admits how many 'people' (taxable corporations) 'reside' in the house, then they are admitting their submission of sovereignty to the US federal government. If you are living on a sovereign property, make sure that everybody living in your house is aware that answering to a census implies acceptance of federal authority and can implicate you for any taxation levied upon 'land owners'.

[edit on 23/5/2009 by nrky]

TheEndofEvolution - There are quite a few people that have done the same thing as RP Girl and nothing happens to them.

Realize they can present you any "law" they want like the one you posted, but what does the law really say? Does it have anything to do with that situation? No. They do this to intimidate you so you'll just let them do what ever they want. (It's the same with the IRS) That's where MANY Americans go wrong and is a BIG reason why the country is in the condition it is. They fear the government. What does that say? If you're intimidated into doing anything, it's illegal! The mob and crooks do that stuff because they have no legal standing to do it right?

Notice the "law" you posted is for a census? The census is next year. Where's the law saying they can GPS your house the year before a census? Notice they never made a public announcement saying they were going to do this? That should be a clue.

And where's the law saying they can trespass onto property that has a no trespassing sign that specifically says "no government agents" can trespass unless it's a fire or medical emergency? They can't break the law no matter who they are, unless we let them.

Yes nrky! You hit the nail right on the head! People need to establish their sovereignty again and stop letting the tail wag the dog.

reply to post by TheEndofEvolution


This for "census" only, the GPSing of housing is not under the Commerce Department is under the White house Last minute project under White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel.

Sec. 223, Title 13, U.S. Code, Chapter 7, Subtitle 2 provides the Fed NO authority to GPS paint your front door




[edit on 23-5-2009 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


NPR had this story in july 2006. Thats 3 years ago before Obama was in office. Doesn't sound very last minute to me. The purpose of the GPS is to mark all dwellings on a property. Like people living above a garage or in the country people will put a trailer behind their parents house and live in it. This is why they cannot share the information to even local government, because no one will be truthful with census personnel.

The Law cited does not allow them to GPS. It is just general guide lines for the citizen regarding how to deal with census personnel. Their directives come from the census department. Find in the constitution where they cannot GPS your house. I'm still waiting

reply to post by nrky

Also, don't forget the 'common law vs. commercial law' arguments of sovereignty. If ANYBODY living in the house admits how many 'people' (taxable corporations) 'reside' in the house, then they are admitting their submission of sovereignty to the US federal government. If you are living on a sovereign property, make sure that everybody living in your house is aware that answering to a census implies acceptance of federal authority and can implicate you for any taxation levied upon 'land owners'.

In no way whatsoever is enumerating the amount of occupants in the house relinquishing your private property sovereignty. That statement is absolutely ridiculous.

The only way your argument would possibly work is to declare independence from the United States. Of course you would then have to have the United States recognize your sovereign nation, establish trade with the United States and negotiate for unrestricted travel within the United States once you left your property.

The census ONCE AGAIN is a constitutionally mandated enumeration of the population of the United States. They are required by the constitution to get an accurate count of the people living in this country. Therefore it is their right to do so and it is your duty as an American citizen to provide this information.

I am shocked at the level of ignorance in this thread.


Really just because it's the government that is doing it does not mean that it is evil. This is a constitutional requirement. Something amazingly that the government is supposed to do.

Perhaps more research and less speculation of being rounded up like cattle and force marched to a gulag is in order here.

2010.census.gov...

The official government census website.

If you are worried about the information that you provide the government (like you haven't given enough information to the local DMV to make this entire argument invalid). Then give the Census taker just the information that they are legally required to have.

A short survey being preformed by people that live in your community. That's the other problem with peoples argument against the census. The people that are going to be conducting this census aren't the MIB, they aren't the FBI, they aren't the NSA, they aren't the DHS, they aren't the CIA, they aren't anyone but local citizens.

Why give your neighbor a hard time for being patriotic enough to heed the call to serve their country in a small way?

reply to post by marg6043


This is a more valid argument. However I must point out that while they have no authority to do so. I don't think it's much of a personal security issue. Again, if they were to do this more nefariously wouldn't it be easier to have the mail carrier preform the GPS tag on everyone's house? After all a mailman has unfettered access to your property.

Or another way would be to have local utilities conduct the GPS tag of your front door. Again these people routinely come to your home, they would not draw any suspicion. They could do their job without you being home.

Of course again, if you live in a new subdivision your front door has probably already been GPS tagged, and that information is sitting in a database somewhere. How easy would it be for the general contractor to sell your front door coordinates to the government?

reply to post by Valaroga


Sorry about your financial problems. A lot of people are in the same boat. I suspect that a lot of census takers will also be people that have been laid off from a job.

Yes our government has made it nice and easy to outsource our jobs overseas. That still doesn't make it right to be mean to someone that is just trying to do their job. Whether or not they temporarily work for Uncle Sam.



[edit on 5/23/2009 by whatukno]

A friend of mine works for them and says it's for the real census takers to be able to quickly come to the right door for the 2010 census. They're supposed to do every house in America from what she said.

I actually lived with out a physical address for about ten years.... I am physically isolated to the extent that the county tax assessor skipped coming up to my place for a couple of years and I wasn't taxed on a rather costly improvement to my property.... They now do fly overs in a light plane instead of risking damage to their cars.... I really can't see any reason to get upset with a census taker if they go to the trouble to make it up here after all it isn't like they are armed and dangerous and my closest neighbor usually calls and lets me know if someone that isn't familiar to them is headed this way and sometimes will stop and ask who they are first. The first census takers I can remember were teachers at my elementary school and that was 50 years ago.

Originally posted by Ron Paul Girl
The fact remains that the jerk didn't do his job - he didn't find out how many people live here!!!!! We would have answered that question because that's a perfectly constitutional question to ask.

Assuming "jerk" actually worked for the US Census Bureau, and 99% chance they were only contracted by them. I know where I will be telling them to put their golden ticket when they meet my canines. Not that it really matters as far as if anything "extra-census" is planned with this data they are collecting. "They" know where I live.

reply to post by whatukno


While I have not problem with the census and I always fill out what I feel I should the rest I write none of your business.

This take over of GPSing by the Federal government and not conducted by the Commerce Department needs more scrutiny.

Why Big brother is so involved is what have all my flags burning.

And that this is in the hands of a man that his past ridden by very undesirable acts should make everybody be aware of who are the people that are in positions of power in our government.

The man can easily be tagged a Nazi ideas supporter



[edit on 23-5-2009 by marg6043]

I've only read the first few pages then skimmed the next few before posting, but here's my point of view anyways

I worked the census back in 2000 in Vermont. Census workers aren't government goons, they are temps who are making some easy cash from the government. The folks on our team considered the census to be our tax refund for the past 5 years or so. You get paid mileage for working the census and mileage isn't taxable and no one seems to check the books very well. The padding was almost double for some folks. Also, when I went into the Census HQ in Burlington (a 90 or 150 mile drive from my home depending on if you were looking at a map or claiming mileage) there were rows of workers sitting diligently at their computers, but when I walked behind them to drop of a stack of record books every single one of them was playing solitaire or some other game.

The census is our once a decade chance to steal back from the government and most of the workers know that, and really couldn't care if they GPS tag your front door or your dog house so long as the reports look good and they get their paycheck.

Anyways, don't start shooting census workers. That was the main point of my posting, there just regular folks looking to make a few bucks for the most part. There are gonna be a few pricks mixed in, just like anywhere else, but most are just average lazy american workers.

Also, regarding the mapping. The Census Dept sells data to folks who ask for it. Thats why you get some really screwy questions sometimes, its cuz some marketing department with connections managed to get their question on the survey so they can better sell you stuff you don't really need. I would guess the mapping data will also be sold off, as well as being put into the 'big database' so when the cops do a no knock warrant on your house at 3am they'll be less likely to kill the 90 year old grandma who lives next door to you.

/ramblings

eb

reply to post by marg6043

Originally posted by marg6043
While I have not problem with the census and I always fill out what I feel I should the rest I write none of your business.

Which is perfectly reasonable. From what I remember of the last census most of the questions were completely optional. The only real requirement was how many people lived in the house I was in. I could not agree more about filling in N/A or none of your business on the rest.

This take over of GPSing by the Federal government and not conducted by the Commerce Department needs more scrutiny.

Again I agree, anything the government changes should be looked at in great detail the last 30 years has seen a marked increase in the fascist policies by our government.

While the commerce department would have a more legitimate use for a detailed GPS map of the United States. There are of course those pesky national security concerns, that the (BS) DHS consistently remind us of.

And that this is in the hands of a man that his past ridden by very undesirable acts should make everybody be aware of who are the people that are in positions of power in our government.

Can you find one man (or woman) that has not committed undesirable acts?

The man can easily be tagged a Nazi ideas supporter

The Pope? I thought we were talking about Rhom Emanuel. Man I was way off.

I like your argument on this matter, it's informed, insightful and a wee bit pragmatic.

I disagree with aspects. But your points are at least valid. But here is the difference.

I am not sure why anyone would care that someone takes a GPS reading of their front door. If it was for illegitimate purposes, An electric company or gas survey or water survey crew could preform the duty much more efficiently and without much notice by the public.

How often do you question a man in a hard hat holding a clipboard?

Yes it is information. But what real use is it anyway? It's a set of coordinates. Maybe elevation. What if it was a person from the USGS that was preforming the survey? Would it raise any attention? If they could convince you to let them take these numbers? If they could what guarantee would you have that they wouldn't just put it up for every alphabet soup agency to scrutiny?

And what information does that give them anyway? A set of numbers? With no name to associate it with?

If you did research on Google Earth you could find the spot on the map but you can't be sure who lives there. How often do people change residencies? The data would be outdated nearly instantly. It would be rife with errors anyway by inept census takers that can't quite grasp the idea of how to use a GPS.

With the housing crisis as it is nowadays who is to say that when all is said and done all properties across the United States wouldn't be tagged. How many vacant houses have you seen crop up? What useful data could the government glean from that statistic?

Think of this however. FEMA (yea I know FEMA) responds to a disaster, a neighborhood is completely devastated by a natural disaster. You are trapped alive in the wreckage of your former home. First responders at the scene have this data to go on. Now they know that at least there was a front door here. They won't be digging around at your back porch. Your life may be saved simply by the fact that the firemen at the scene knew where your house used to be.

Again I say accurate data is good.

With all the freedoms we have lost over the years the Census and GPS data to me seems to be the least worthwhile cause to fight.

The census is a patriotic duty. Written into the constitution by our founding fathers. As a citizen it is your obligation to submit a tiny bit of information to the government. Today you already give out more sensitive information to people over the phone. You already give out more sensitive information over the internet.

I object more to fingerprinting than I do a GPS tag.

Remember you are not your house. You are not your job etc...

And not to burst anyone's bubble here but most of you aren't worth the government's time. Sorry but your not that important. I know I most certainly am not worth the government's time.

Also remember that this is a government operation. Chances are good that the people working this won't give a rats bung hole whether they tag your front door or not. They are collecting a paycheck, that's all. You could give plausible reasonable answers and not tell them a dang thing. Like they are going to care.

Just trying to interject some realism into the discussion.

Marg, again you make valid points. Your argument is reasonable and intelligent and it is a pleasure to discuss this with you. Thank you.



[edit on 5/24/2009 by whatukno]

reply to post by whatukno


Well I like your reasoning and while I will not quote as much as you I will try to cover all your answers.

Mr. chief of staff Rahm Emanuel is not your typical Fellow, he has a past that many Americans had not clue about it, because they link him as just been another american politicians out there.

No only he has been linked to corruption in Chicago, but he is the son of a terrorist.

Rahm Emanuel is the son of Dr. Benjamin Emanuel, a pediatrician who was a member of the Zionist terrorist gang called Irgun, which carried out acts of violence in Palestine between 1931 and 1948.

www.bigbrassblog.com...

Now, nobody should carry the sins of the father, but he has various acts that shows that he is not what he seems.

Also he was one of the most supporters of Obama volunteer service, actually he was the one that said in his book The Plan in which he outlines a mandatory civil service requirement for all Americans from ages 18 to 25.

Now this was already approved by our President and signed with some modifications.

Then as a conspiracist believer I see the pushing of the GPSing of homes given to him under the federal government to oversee to become his wildest dream of power become true.

Then you take Obamas own words on the plans of mandatory volunteer service

“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” - Barack Obama July 2, 2008 @ Colorado Springs.

Then have the entire nation and homes map and then you wonder who will be building this force that will be in the hundred of thousands with available GPS cordinates to find anybody in any neighbohood.

I think that this have me very concern after all is going to be very dificult to forget that I have been watched now very closely not only from the ground, from the air and have to watch out who is standing next to me because he could be a snitch for the NWO of Obama and his House staff Rahm Emanuel under his new volunteer service.

Obama wants national secret police to rule you

www.dailynewscaster.com...

But occurs this the rant of just a conspiracy believer.

Nothing to see here.








[edit on 24-5-2009 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Ron Paul Girl
reply to post by Ron Paul Girl

 

Oh, by the way, to the person that suggested I made this all up to get stars and flags to increase my points - explain to me what the points are for because I really have no clue and I haven't bothered to try to find out.

...to gather many flags and stars for the ranking system.

Points were not even mentioned. Does that slip mean it's actually point seeking.

If the guy is real then call the census, the number is published at 2010.census.gov and get him canned for actions overstepping the bounds of his duties.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
reply to post by Chevalerous

 

Hey thanks for posting my video and such. Sometimes I feel all alone in trying to expose it. It's so important.

Big thanks to yourself for collecting all those scientific links and compiled it in one place!

Your work opened my eyes about this 2 years ago when I started to notice this stuff around Technology University forums and Technology Research and Development forums and boards here in Europe.

Man! I have seen some of these automatic 3D software programs they are using for this - and it blew me away since I have been doing a lot of subdivision modeling in my work profession. And I know how much hard work it is, and suddenly I see these total automatic 3D tools that can model and texturing wire frames models in "real time" after satellite GPS and scanned photos.

I was about to die when I saw this, and directly it hit me! This together with AI intelligence could be the 100% perfect Surveillance & intelligence Tool.

That was the technology nerd in me who connected the dots, and so I started to look more into it and also found your eminent work about it!

I also by mistake went in to some secret site from the web by following many links from a science forum at MIT - and saw a lot of things there for 1 hour until their security noticed me and kicked me out by asking for password, some nerd probably & temporarily forgot to protect their server to the web!

Man! I saw a lot of interesting chit about this stuff in that 1 hour time!

Every smart person should be aware of the implications of this system they are building now! IMHO!

This is how the NWO are going to implement thier Surveillance & intelligence apparatus!

Yea, I live on Long Island and about a week ago there was this guy was was walking around with what looked like almost a big pda. I thought nothing of it as he seemed to be a LIPA offical and just reading the meters or something. Now that I read this post, I know now who and what he was doing but I don't understand why.

The position of your front door can be accurately determined with Google Earth. The position of your door does not mean they want to call in an air strike. You are a citizen of this country, and are obligated to assist the census takers in the course of their duties. Let them do their work, and try to be a little less paranoid, ok? Census information is used to assist government in the proper use of funds in your community, as well as establish the health of the nation.

Your posts on ATS are also recordable because they are associated with your internet address. Everything you say on ATS can be used against you. If you feel that you are anonymous here, you are badly mistaken.

If you want to assist this nation in its recovery, I suggest you make an effort locally in your community by participating in: community events, voting, assisting neighbors, community emergency planning, etc. If you fall into the "me first" attitude, rather than "lets get together and solve the problem", it will only be a piece of the self-destructing formula you promulgate on this thread. Get off the computer and talk to your friends and neighbors. Come up with a worst-case scenario plan. Failure to plan is planning to fail, right?

Let's do it together and make a new and brighter future. Being uncooperative with government efforts to solve problems, like the census, is only making the job harder to help you and me.

[edit on 24-5-2009 by Jim Scott]

[edit on 24-5-2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by Ron Paul Girl

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by GreenBicMan

 

They cant kill you as good with a GPS guided bomb if it hits your driveway. It is much more effective if it hits your front door knob and comes into the house before detonating.

Unfortunately, great minds think alike. This is the absolute ONLY logical reason for them to NEED to GPS the front door and not the garage door, gate, driveway enterance, etc. THE ONLY REASON. WAKE UP AMERICA.

Not necessarily. We all know there are too many people on earth to comfortably control, but what if it is more a case of GPS-ing the doors and linking them to the soon-to-be, mandatorily accepted RFID/PLD. That way, the government can always know where who is.

As for you and your husband, i would not be surprised if you were to be listed as (-potential-) terrorists. There is a war on terrorism going on, they say, and one of the marks of a terrorist, is secrecy. By denying your government the ability to know where you are, inside or outside, you clearly stated a demand for personal secrecy, which only a (-potential-) terrorist is adamant at.

After all, tagging the door and adding the cost to your property tax, is a lot cheaper for the g-men, than adding another tax to the books.

The necessity of taking of a census has been around for centuries. Although it's theoretically possible to abuse the process and do the worst, I believe most of you are nervous nellies who have been brainwashed to believe the sky is falling when all that's happening is just a boring, methodical census process.

Is there any credible evidence of nefarious motives in the census process? I mean specific evidence, not crazy urban myths about the government coming for us at night.

I see this paranoia in the context of the hysteria which claims with bulging eyes "Obama is a socialist, a Black Muslim, a Manchurian Candidate, a pal of terrorists, a non-citizen unqualified to be president."

Save your energy for the things that matter, which is the takeover of the world by corporations and the Mega-wealthy, the takeover of which is greased by the very non-regulation Ron Paul supporters champion.

Ron Paul has some good ideas, but some of his ideology is toxic, as evidenced by this current Tempest in a Tea Pot.

Respectfully...........