Originally posted by Saurus
False - the difference is that in Freemasonry, you give the oath line by line, and you're free to stop at any time if there is a single point you don't agree with.

Why would they make you agree in advance, then?? Additionally the candidate is told that the oath will not conflict with his neighbor, his country or his god, which he later discovers to be false.

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by Silver Shadow
You will forfeit your very life if you break this obligation.

False. The ritual specifically implies that the inclusion of any penalty is unnecessary, because the obligation is binding on your conscience.

This should be good news to ex-Masons who fear for their lives.

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by Silver Shadow
And that is fair enough, because that is what you agree to.

No mason agrees to any such thing.

They agree to whatever the Worshipful Master says.

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by Silver Shadow
Blindfolded, with a hangman's noose around your neck, and a dagger held at your heart you swear an oath under duress you have no knowledge of beforehand, that you cannot later revoke.

Absolutely false.

Please provide the correct wording, then.

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by Silver Shadow
Sounds like fun, huh?

I enjoyed my initiation tremendously, and felt a great pride in the oath I took.

You took pride in swearing to have your tongue cut out and buried at the seashore? Wow, reminds me of a documentary I saw about the Mormons.

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by Silver Shadow
I would like some of you Craft Brethren to deny this is true.

See my comments above for clarification on what is true and what isn't.

Too bad you didn't explain in any amount of detail whatsoever.

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Originally posted by parisinflames
It just bothers me to see something I hold dear in my life, be battered by some who probably walks around wearing a cloak, and speaking in olde english counting down the days until Renaissance festival comes back.

Some people think that drinking blood is dear to their life

Originally posted by parisinflames
But land of the free...free to be an embarrassment..and free to dream up your little fantasy worlds while you make my whopper.

Do I detect a bit of classism? What happened to that good ol' Masonic spirit???

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by Silver Shadow
Blindfolded, with a hangman's noose around your neck, and a dagger held at your heart you swear an oath under duress you have no knowledge of beforehand, that you cannot later revoke.

I just realized how absurd this statement is...

Even if there was a dagger held at your heart when you give the oath (which there isn't), how could you possibly know if you're blindfolded?

[edit on 4/6/2009 by Saurus]

Maybe your lodge can't even afford a spare dagger, but it happens in other lodges.

You know that it's held to your heart because you can feel it, duh. Your breast is bare when you're taking the oath btw. If you couldn't figure that out, it means that you are wearing loose clothes with your shirt pull back to expose your left chest - sorta like a medieval version of a toga.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
You know that it's held to your heart because you can feel it, duh.

While this may happen in other jurisdictions it certainly does not happen in New Jersey.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
While this may happen in other jurisdictions it certainly does not happen in New Jersey.

AM, you're feeding the . . .

. . . . well, you know.

Originally posted by senrak
AM, you're feeding the . . .

. . . . well, you know.

Not my intention Brother. I learned my lesson regarding speaking about ritual and assuming it is the same all over the United States. Several Brothers have pointed out differences both subtle and profound so I now couch my statements with the above disclaimer. I may add that I do not think that the dagger prop is used anywhere in the United States but I do not have a copy of each jurisdictions ritual book so I can not say for certain. Perhaps you have some further insight.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus


I may add that I do not think that the dagger prop is used anywhere in the United States but I do not have a copy of each jurisdictions ritual book so I can not say for certain. Perhaps you have some further insight.

No, I'm with you. I do have copies of most U.S. Grand Lodge Rituals that are printed and have never seen a dagger used. This is of European origin and there are probably some who still do this.

I was just pointing out that vcwxvwligen's posts do not appear to want to actually learn anything as evident by the bitterness of his/her posts. Pure bitterness toward people he/she doesn't even know and coming from someone who's never once attended a Masonic meeting, but is an expert because he/she read something on the internet.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Bitterness towards people who lie.

So the ATS members are lying to you? Otherwise why the obvious anger?

I have met a number of Freemasons. They have treated me kindly, but that's not to say that I would trust them,

I don't blame you. I sure wouldn't want to trust people who've been nice to me.

or that I'd like to meet them again.

I fully agree. I'd rather meet the people who are nasty to me.

I've also met plenty of women who seemed to be zombified under the influence of Masonry, and they were frustratingly annoying to deal with.

I'll have to admit...that's a first. I've never heard anyone say anything that even comes close to this. Most women I know aren't the least bit interested in Freemasonry, let alone "zombified" (what ever that means) by it. Oh well, I guess I associate with a different class of women.

Ta ta vcwxvwligen, it's been very....strange

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Bitterness towards people who lie.

So the ATS members are lying to you? Otherwise why the obvious anger?

Yes, the Freemasons on here who pollute the forum with their empty worthless denials, even the Freemason mods

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by vcwxvwligenI have met a number of Freemasons. They have treated me kindly, but that's not to say that I would trust them,

I don't blame you. I sure wouldn't want to trust people who've been nice to me.

or that I'd like to meet them again.

I fully agree. I'd rather meet the people who are nasty to me.

Then I have no choice but to assume that you're a fantastic judge of character, and not at all liable of being misled through your own selfish impulses

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by vcwxvwligenI've also met plenty of women who seemed to be zombified under the influence of Masonry, and they were frustratingly annoying to deal with.

I'll have to admit...that's a first. I've never heard anyone say anything that even comes close to this. Most women I know aren't the least bit interested in Freemasonry, let alone "zombified" (what ever that means) by it. Oh well, I guess I associate with a different class of women.

Ta ta vcwxvwligen, it's been very....strange

You've never met a woman who just acts like a social robot? Actually, calling them "women" is a bit of an overstatement, because they tend to act a bit childish at times.

Please tell us more about these Masonic zombie women... Your crediblity is out the window anyway, and you are an excellent storyteller, so we may as well enjoy our time here.

So you have a gripe about Christianity?

...Gripes? Like the way you just implied that Crowley and Pike were terrible for being Buddhists? You have a gripe about Buddhism?

People are people, joining one group or another, doesn't mean they transform into something super human. Freemason, Buddhist, Christian, their all just titles, what somebody does after they claim those titles is more of a reflection of the person who does them than the origin of the title.

Somebody could join the Catholic church tomorrow and then go shoot up a school or something equally worthless the next morning and people like you would say the Catholic church murders school children. People like you insisting that something is because of one reason, doesn't make it so.

Sorry to come off bitchy, I'm getting tired of the same ignorant attacks over and over trying to connect every negative act on the planet to the Freemasons. They are people, just like you. None are perfect, and the majority of them are great people, why focus on the few negative things as opposed to the many good things?? This is what starts racism and God knows how many other problems.

God Bless.
-Task