Barak: We'll evacuate illegal outposts peacefully or with force, page 2
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reply posted on 27-5-2009 @ 04:42 AM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mmiichael


Laugh out loud, thank goodness I provided you with a way then to avoid those very hard to answer questions.

Trix are for kids Mike, go on take a stab at the questions in the post rather than a personal attack.

I would love to hear you counter them...if you can...


reply posted on 27-5-2009 @ 07:58 AM by mattpryor
More news on this:

Israeli, US officials discuss outposts (JPost again).

With regards to accusing Israel of not showing enough restraint towards the state-instituted terrorist campaign emanating from Gaza (referring to protoplastictraveler's cute hand biting analogy), do you not think that ignoring 8 years' worth of rocket attacks shows remarkable restraint?

I cannot think of any other nation on Earth that would be expected by the international community to sit and do nothing while people at its border fire tens of thousands of rockets and missiles at civilian homes. I harbour no malice whatsoever towards Palestinian Arabs and I feel very sorry for civilians that are caught in the middle of Hamas's campaign of hate against Israel, but no responsible government can be expected to, or would, just ignore those attacks on its own population. Not one.

You attempt to characterize Hamas terrorists as poor, misled and misguided. Do you honestly, seriously believe that those people just want their land back? Even in spite of the relentless state-run propaganda which encourages children to kill Jews? Have you not seen the Heil-Hitler salutes? Have you not seen the Hamas bunny? Are you not aware that Israel withdrew every settlement and every Jewish settler from Gaza, along with the IDF soldiers that protected them, at a cost of billions, 4 years ago? So kindly explain to me what Hamas are fighting against?

Terrorism in Gaza is institutional. It is encouraged and glorified from primary school upwards and it is funded and sponsored by much larger, richer nations that have consistently sought the destruction of the Jewish state for the last 60 years.

And I categorize terrorism as the intentional, calculated attempt to kill non-combatants in order to instil terror. Your attempt to turn this around by citing the actions of Irgun (who were an insurgency movement that primarily attacked military institutions - King David Hotel was a base for the British army), over 50 years ago, fail.


[edit on 27-5-2009 by mattpryor]



reply posted on 27-5-2009 @ 12:40 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mattpryor




With regards to accusing Israel of not showing enough restraint towards the state-instituted terrorist campaign emanating from Gaza (referring to protoplastictraveler's cute hand biting analogy), do you not think that ignoring 8 years' worth of rocket attacks shows remarkable restraint?


You mean eight years of rockets that are falling on illegal settlements that are being occupied by Israel in violation of U.N. Treaties and accords the Zionists themselves signed?

If Israel’s intentions were for peace they could have simply left that land empty as a buffer zone, like they carved out a buffer zone in Lebanon of Lebanese soil.

I guess that’s not an option when they covet the land they are stealing at gunpoint and occupying in Palestine.

This really surprises you huh? The real owners of the land that haven’t been compensated monetarily for it attacking squatters, alright then, I can see where Israel is inviting the problem can you?

Common sense is after all common, well until you throw something like the Anti-Defamation League, the Jewish Defense League, the American Israel Political Action Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union in to the mix.



I cannot think of any other nation on Earth that would be expected by the international community to sit and do nothing while people at its border fire tens of thousands of rockets and missiles at civilian homes. I harbour no malice whatsoever towards Palestinian Arabs and I feel very sorry for civilians that are caught in the middle of Hamas's campaign of hate against Israel, but no responsible government can be expected to, or would, just ignore those attacks on its own population. Not one.


Well what the heck is wrong with those silly people in Hamas taking matters into their own hands just because there is not an honest cop on the beat? How many U.N. Sanctions against Israel has my country been the only one to oppose in the whole world in the U.N. Security Council? Hold on I am going to need more than just my fingers and toes to count them all up.



You attempt to characterize Hamas terrorists as poor, misled and misguided. Do you honestly, seriously believe that those people just want their land back? Even in spite of the relentless state-run propaganda which encourages children to kill Jews? Have you not seen the Heil-Hitler salutes? Have you not seen the Hamas bunny? Are you not aware that Israel withdrew every settlement and every Jewish settler from Gaza, along with the IDF soldiers that protected them, at a cost of billions, 4 years ago? So kindly explain to me what Hamas are fighting against?


4 years? Laugh out loud I have ex-girlfriends still taking potshots at me from longer ago than that, for doing oh about a billionth time less to them.

Are you really so naïve to think that during those 4 years of actively trying to undermine the infrastructure and government and trying to turn one Palestinian faction against another in blatant manipulation is going to create a stable environment that erases in the minds of over a 1,000,000 people that they have been treated as, and referred to as, and vilified as base non-human animals just so the Israeli propaganda machine could legitimize it’s land thefts, human rights violations and lack of meaningful reparations and eternal inability to honor even one treaty that they sign.

From a sociological standpoint if Israel wants peace it has to give at least one current generation nothing but peace. If the children being born in Gaza not yesterday but today can grow to adulthood without seeing disproportionate violence and collective punishment being inflicted on their innocent loved ones, then you will have made the first and most important step in breaking the cycle.

Without doing that, you are just perpetuating the problem in their minds as you instill it in their minds.

Once again that’s just common sense and you would think the ‘chosen’ people who are supposedly the ‘meek’ that will inherit the earth would have a little common sense. I can loan Israel some if they need it, I have plenty!

Hopefully you would use that to better effect than you do with all the charity in money and weapons my country foolishly hands out to Israel.



Terrorism in Gaza is institutional. It is encouraged and glorified from primary school upwards and it is funded and sponsored by much larger, richer nations that have consistently sought the destruction of the Jewish state for the last 60 years.


Oh you mean like the little Israeli grade school girls who go to IDF munitions depots and scrawl chalk and magic marker messages on the tips of 500 pound bombs. Yes you see a lot of institutionalized hatred in that area…why is that?



And I categorize terrorism as the intentional, calculated attempt to kill non-combatants in order to instil terror. Your attempt to turn this around by citing the actions of Irgun (who were an insurgency movement that primarily attacked military institutions - King David Hotel was a base for the British army), over 50 years ago, fail.


Oh that British Army that was lawfully in charge of the territory it commited to conquering and governing to create legal Zionist immigration to 48% of the land, after obligating themselves to do that in the Balfour Decleration, which they just happened to issue to the world's richest man, and founding Zionist Lord Rothschild who just also happened to control the Bank of England at a time when tactically, and economically England had all but lost the trench warfare battle in Europe against the Kaiser, and the French were in mutiny and the English bankrupt and out of bullets?

That British Army? Oh alright then.
So the Zionists employ the British as a murdering band of land robbers to oust the Ottoman Turks from the region, and then the Zionists kill the British and drive them off.

Hey can I be the Zionist's friend too? It sounds almost as safe and fun as being their enemy!

So U.N. Special Envoy Count Folke Bernadotte sent to the region to try to maintain the peace and see that the U.N. Mandate was honored was a combatant of some kind, hailing from neutral Switzerland? That was the Stern Gang by the way and Yitzhak Shamir that carried out that cold blooded murder of a Diplomat and his aide not the Irgun.

While the Lehi Levy and the Stern Gang where towards the end rolled into the Irgun a much more main stream militant group towards the start of Israeli independence both Lehi and Stern had to pledge to give up its terrorist doctrines since after all in 1948 the U.N. Security Council declared the Lehi and Stern Gangs as a “Criminal Group of Terrorists” including by subsequent UN mediator Ralph Bunche.

Where the Zionists shop keepers that the Lehi and Stern Gangs murdered for hiring Arabs combatants? What were they fighting for to sell seltzer and egg creams to the thirsty masses?

My question is friend since you are obviously Israeli, do they not teach you history in your country or do they simply teach you how to overlook it? I guess this how to overlook history class in the school curriculum there requires ditching common sense class from the schedule oh and ethics too?

Hey thanks for trying to teach the average American to be a homicidal psychopathic mindless and bigoted killing machine too. It’s served our morally and financially bankrupt nation so well in combating a terrorist problem such dysfunctional thinking and pathological actions cause.




[edit on 27/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]


reply posted on 27-5-2009 @ 01:47 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by mmiichael




Unclear is how, with unlimited wealth, power, and influence, in all this time the best these world controlling Jews could manage is a resource barren tenaciously held strip of land in the most hostile location possible.


Well Mike, I am sorry to say that it was a peaceful strip of land where the Hebrews who had not gone in to Diaspora had lived peacefully since Hadrian sacked the Temple.

They could have in fact continued to live peacefully even with the influx of immigration had the Zionists intended to abide by their agreements.

You have no explanation as to why at no point the Zionists have said, oh wait we signed an accord granting us 48% of this land. That was our promise, that was the other side's promise, we have not kept it.

Are you really so naive that you imagine some people don't have grand plans for power and wealth? How exactly did the Rothschild family become the wealthiest in the world over a brief period of just 200 years?

Because it was an accident? They just kept spreading out from nation to nation with their money lending and mercanary and drug smuggling empire because they got lost on the way home to Mayer's house?

How do you explain the Balfour Declaration promising a piece of land not even in England's control or posession at that time being personally addressed to Lord Rothschild?

How do you explain Winston Churchill's roll as Colonial Secretary when his father had a life long relationship with the Rothschild Family, and died heavily in debt financially to them, and Winston himself was reputed to be having an affair with Rothschild's wife?

Sadly what you don't quite yet get about me Mike is I am not looking to humiliate the Zionists by putting a dunce cap on their head.

I am trying to get them to pull it off their heads and wise up to how their own leadership has sacrificed them individually to grand manipulations that the innocent average well intentioned Jew often ends up paying a horrific price for.

Do you even know Mike why Orthodox Jews are exempt from fighting in the Israeli Army?

Do you even know that there was no such thing as the Star of David in Biblical Histroic times, and that Satanic covens use a 5 pointed Star a Hexagram to summon Demons in their rituals, but they use the Six Pointed Star the Sextagram to summon Lucifer in their rituals?

Do you even know the real name of the Hebrew G-d that they refer to in speaking as "our Lord" and in writing as 'G-d'? The name that only the fifty Pharicees Elders pass down orally to their replacement on that council?

Just like foolish Christians and Muslims you take so much on simple faith, refusing to question what lies beneath the surface and the obvious lies that make the veneer that is the surface you desperately attach hope and faith in as being right even though none of the numbers in none of the collums add up.

Your ambition in life might be small, mine certainly is, but Donald Trump does not reside on top of the Trump Towers because his ambitions are small.

Nor does he because his ego is small. That poor guy doesn't even have small hair. I would love to know how he pulled that off, male pattern hair loss baldness sucks!

This is tough love Mike, I am not trying to condemn the Jews of the world, I am trying to save them from themselves...

My first trip to the Zoo Mike when I was a child growing up outside of Pittsburgh Pennsylvania concluded with the last exhibit at the Pittsburgh Zoo that at the enterance of was one single file line with a sign that said "Man's most dangerous enemies and predators".

It was a mock cavern type display that wound past poisonous snakes and insects, and an occasional mammal until almost the very end...

Then the line split in two...

Step this way to see man's most deadly enemy...

Step this way to see woman's most deadly enemy...

The lighting got even dimmer, the inside of the man made cave even damper and danker as warning signs on the wall urged extreme caution...

finally at the end right before the most deadly predator enterance...the sign said...Caution, only one person may enter at a time when viewing man's deadliest enemy...

I waited my turn...I stepped into the room full of wonder and fear...

To see myself in a floor to ceiling mirror.



[edit on 27/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]


reply posted on 27-5-2009 @ 02:41 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Lehi had three main goals:

to bring together all those interested in liberation (that is, those willing to join in active fighting against the British)

to appear before the world as the only active Jewish military organization
to take over the Land of Israel by armed force[9]

The group believed in its early years that its goals would be achieved by finding a strong international ally that would expel the British from Palestine, or Eretz Yisrael (the Jewish name for the land), in return for help from the Jewish military; this would in turn require the creation of a broad and organised military force "demonstrating its desire for freedom through military operations."[10]

An article titled "Terror" in He Khazit (The Front, a Lehi underground newspaper) argued as follows:

Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all. [11]

The article described the goals of terror:

It demonstrates ... against the true terrorist who hides behind his piles of papers and the laws he has legislated.

It is not directed against people, it is directed against representatives. Therefore it is effective.

If it also shakes the Yishuv from their complacency, good and well.[11]
:


Clearly these men saw themselves as terrorists and made no appologies for it.

Avraham Stern put forth the ideology of his organization in what was called the 18 Principles of Rebirth:[13]

1 - The nation: The Jewish people is a covenanted people, the originator of monotheism, formulator of the prophetic teachings, standard bearer of human culture, guardian of glorious patrimony. The Jewish people is schooled in self-sacrifice and suffering; its vision, survivability and faith in redemption are indestructible.

2 - The homeland: The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18) This is the land of the living, where the entire nation shall live in safety.

3 - The nation and its land: Israel conquered the land with the sword. There it became a great nation and only there it will be reborn. Hence Israel alone has a right to that land. This is an absolute right. It has never expired and never will.

4 - The Goals

1 - Redemption of the land.

2 - Establishment of sovereignty.

3 - Revival of the nation.
There is no sovereignty without the redemption of the land, and there is no national revival without sovereignty.
These are the goals of the organization during the period of war and conquest:

5 - Education: Educate the nation to love freedom and zealously guard Israel's eternal patrimony. Inculcate the idea that the nation is master to its own fate. Revive the doctrine that "The sword and the book came bound together from heaven" (Midrash Vayikra Rabba 35:8)

6 - Unity: The unification of the entire nation around the banner of the Hebrew freedom movement. The use of the genius, status and resources of individuals and the channeling of the energy, devotion and revolutionary fervour of the masses for the war of liberation.

7 - Pacts: Make pacts with all those who are willing to help the struggle of the organization and provide direct support.

8 - Force: Consolidate and increase the fighting force in the homeland and in the Diaspora, in the underground and in the barracks, to become the Hebrew army of liberation with its flag, arms, and commanders.

9 - War: Constant war against those who stand in the way of fulfilling the goals.

10 - Conquest: The conquest of the homeland from foreign rule and its eternal possession.

These are the tasks of the movement during the period of sovereignty and redemption:

11 - Sovereignty: Renewal of Hebrew sovereignty over the redeemed land.

12 - Rule of justice: The establishment of a social order in the spirit of Jewish morality and prophetic justice. Under such an order no one will go hungry or unemployed. All will live in harmony, mutual respect and friendship as an example to the world.

13 - Reviving the wilderness: Build the ruins and revive the wilderness for mass immigration and population increase.

14 - Aliens: Solve the problem of alien population [i.e. the Arab inhabitants of Palestine] by exchange of population.

15 - Ingathering of the exiles: Total in-gathering of the exiles to their sovereign state.

16 - Power: The Hebrew nation shall become a first-rate military, political, cultural and economical entity in the Middle East and around the Mediterranean Sea.

17 - Revival: The revival of the Hebrew language as a spoken language by the entire nation, the renewal of the historical and spiritual might of Israel. The purification of the national character in the fire of revival.

18 - The temple: The building of the Third Temple as a symbol of the new era of total redemption.
13]


Wikipedia

So clearly what we see here is a premeditated determination to evict all the indigenous population.

To force them to become a part of other establish nations.

To do so through violent force including terrorist means.

To enlist as many other people including those in Diaspora to that cause.

To exchange the current population for a new population in absolute and complete ways.

The reality is yes it's a stinging indictment when viewed in honest and realistic terms without the appology or excuse.

The reality is yes this was the Zionist plan and this still is the Zionist plan.

I sure could see why the people of the region would not welcome it, since the plan calls for absloute domination from the Brooks of Egypt to the Mesopatamium Delta wich is of course all the Middle East.

Clearly it states get others (like the United States) to bear the cost and burden of this.

This tiny strip of land argument of yours is in fact saying oh wait it's just a tiny strip of land we stole what's the big deal, when in reality it is an every increasing strip of land which by your own admission you consider tiny, as in inadequate, which Israel's own actions bear out.

Constitutionally our Forefathers here in America would not have supported this because as the Zionist terrorist manifesto clearly states, the Zionist Hebrew version of the Law in their own minds supercedes any other Law including American Constitutional Law.

So in reality, Israel is not an ally to America but our number one enemy.

A crafty enemy as they seek to subvert our constitution, laws, equitable sense of fair play for all, as opposed to just Hebrews, but a determined enemy all the same.

I call it like I see it, and I see it from what comes out of the horses mouth not his hind end!


reply posted on 28-5-2009 @ 02:00 AM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


This is tough love Mike, I am not trying to condemn the Jews of the world, I am trying to save them from themselves...



The Jews of the world have much to be thankful having you on their side.

I enjoy your Good Cop / Bad Cop routine, alternating warm personalization with savage condemnation. An effective strategy in breaking down resistance in business dealings and seduction.

Myself I have a multi-disciplined background and have lived and worked in many parts of the world.

My late wife came from an old 'insider' Catholic family, with a Jesuit priest for an uncle and an Ursuline nun an aunt. I mention this only because there are equally fascinating claims of the Catholic Church being responsible for the political and economic chicanery and turmoil in the last century. I find these claims to behighly exaggerated.

When you narrow focus on a single cause, say Zionism or the Vatican, dot connecting can yield highly compelling results. Discovering hidden world controllers and malign campaigns is always a fascinating game.

But on closer examination the world is an amazingly complicated place with power, wealth, and influence in constant flux. The simple answers are appealing but also deceptive.

Anyway, I find your always informative messages entertaining, sometimes even insightful.



Mike


[edit on 27-5-2009 by mmiichael]


I think they do to Mike. I am actually hoping there will be a reward in it like a Library named after me one day. That would be nice, maybe some little incsription for being such a good friend. Oh and maybe a holiday too, but a fun one! No weeping or wailing at the wall that day please.

See ultimately it's just a managerial problem that can be corrected with a better study of the numbers.

Lets look...

Amnesty catalogues Israel’s human rights abuses
London, May 28, IRNA – Amnesty International has catalogued a host of gross human rights violations and breaches of international law in its latest annual report on 157 countries and territories worldwide.

In its the latest massacre of Palestinians in Gaza, the London-based human rights organisation also said that the Israeli forces repeatedly breached the laws of war, including by carrying out direct attacks on civilians and civilian buildings.”

Israel’s military offensive, it said, was on “an unprecedented scale,” killing over 1,400 Palestinians, including some 300 children, and wounding some 5,000 others.

“From Gaza to Darfur and from eastern DRC to northern Sri Lanka, the human toll of conflict has been horrendous, and the lukewarm response of the international community shocking,” said Amnesty’s Secretary General Irene Khan, in summing up last year events.

The report for 2008 said that Israel was already “stoking up a growing humanitarian catastrophe” in its siege of Gaza even before it launch its slaughter at the end of the year.

“The blockade throttled almost all economic life and led growing numbers of Palestinians to become dependent on international food aid; even terminally ill patients were prevented from leaving to obtain medical care that could not be provided by Gaza’s resource- and medicine-starved hospitals,” it said.

“Palestinians already living in poverty were made homeless as a matter of deliberate policy” and this also included the West Bank, where Israeli forces demolished many Palestinian homes, the human rights group said.
“In the Jordan Valley, they brought in bulldozers to flatten villagers’ homes and animal pens, depriving them of their livelihood, while elsewhere Palestinians were cut off from their agricultural lands by the construction of the fence/wall and were prevented from travelling to work, study or even to obtain hospital treatment by numerous Israeli army checkpoints and road-blocks.”

In Gaza during the bombardment, some 20,000 Palestinian homes were further destroyed or badly damaged as well as schools and workplaces and this was to an entire population of 1.5 million that were “virtually imprisoned” by Israel.

With regard to Israel’s war crimes, Amnesty also castigated the UN for showing “itself unwilling to establish a comprehensive international investigation of its own or to require that Israel cooperate with the inquiry established by the UN Human Rights Council.”

The catalogue of Israeli killings was not only confined to Gaza but also included was listed as 425 Palestinians, included some 70 children in the first half of 2008.

Breaches of international law extended to Israel’s continuing expansion and development of illegal settlements in the West Bank, where the movement of Palestinians were also severely curtailed by some 600 checkpoints and barriers, and by the 700km illegal barrier.

“The expansion of illegal Israeli settlements on seized Palestinian land increased to a level not seen since 2001,” the report said.
It also criticised the increased violence by soldiers and illegal settlers, who committed serious abuses against Palestinians, including unlawful killings, assaults and attacks against property, saying they “enjoyed impunity in most cases.”

On the other side were the hundreds of Palestinians were arrested and frequently reportedly tortured and ill-treated, but Amnesty said that any investigations by Israeli authorities were “rare.” It calculated some 8,000 Palestinians remained in Israeli prisons, many after unfair military trials.
In Lebanon, it reported that Israel was still in breach of UN demands to provide data to assist clearance of unexploded munitions from cluster bombs during its 2006 invasion and that by the end of 2008, it was still illegally occupying the border village of Ghajar.


Irna.ir

Tally the damage in a side by side colum test and well it's no wonder these people are firing rockets at Isreal.

You just can't even equate on any level the disparity between the loss of one side versus the loss on the other side of being even in the same category of barbarity, viciousness, and insane inhumanity.

The numbers are all out of wack. The accounting department has flagged this.

Looks like what they say that the road to redemption is full of nothing but ruin.

[edit on 28/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]


reply posted on 28-5-2009 @ 08:03 AM by mmiichael
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

You just can't even equate on any level the disparity between the loss of one side versus the loss on the other side of being even in the same category of barbarity, viciousness, and insane inhumanity.

The numbers are all out of wack. The accounting department has flagged this.

Looks like what they say that the road to redemption is full of nothing but ruin.



You're right and it's terrible.

Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries have unabatingly attacked and made every effort towards the destruction of the Israeli state. Not wanting to lose an opportunity to gain popularity, the Islamic State of Iran has been financing and arming those at it's borders trying to bring down Israel. Let's not even get into the stirring rhetoric.

The 5 Million Jews in Israel are in a state of war not only with the Palestinians but the tens of millions of Muslims in the region. They have made it evident they ultimately want all of Israel and every Jew gone. There's a term for it - Judenrein (free of Jews)

Given no alternative Israelis have fought back the way one is forced to in trying to effectively stop an onslaught - hit hard hoping to convince your opponents it is not in their best interest to continue.

The Palestinians have had the misfortune of choosing leaders who have made profitable enterprises based on the continued suffering and deaths of the own people. They have foregone opportunities to achieve autonomous statehood at so many junctures. Instead pushing Israeli forces into self protecting retaliation is their chosen strategy. Every innocent child killed becomes a victory in their media campaign.

They have entered a phase where achieving peace is no longer the real goal. They are funded and armed to be in a perpetual state of war with Israel, and casualties on their side translate to increased outside funding to continue this madness.

It all wasn't necessary, it wasn't wanted. It was handed to Israel the day they were given statehood. They have fought to maintain their very existence despite uncalled for hostility. They are trying to send a clear message that they do not intend to become victims to those who wish to exterminate them.




www.commentarymagazine.com...


It is indeed the tragedy of the Palestinians that the two leaders who determined their national development during the 20th century—Hajj Amin Husseini and Yasir Arafat, the latter of whom dominated Palestinian politics since the mid-1960’s to his death in November 2004—were megalomaniacal extremists blinded by anti-Jewish hatred and profoundly obsessed with violence. Had the mufti chosen to lead his people to peace and reconciliation with their Jewish neighbors, as he had promised the British officials who appointed him to his high rank in the early 1920’s, the Palestinians would have had their independent state over a substantial part of Mandate Palestine by 1948, and would have been spared the traumatic experience of dispersion and exile. Had Arafat set the PLO from the start on the path to peace and reconciliation, instead of turning it into one of the most murderous terrorist organizations in modern times, a Palestinian state could have been established in the late 1960’s or the early 1970’s; in 1979 as a corollary to the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty; by May 1999 as part of the Oslo process; or at the very latest with the Camp David summit of July 2000.

Instead, Arafat transformed the territories placed under his control in the 1990’s into an effective terror state from where he launched an all-out war (the “al-Aqsa intifada”) shortly after being offered an independent Palestinian state in the Gaza Strip and 92 percent of the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital. In the process, he subjected the Palestinian population in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to a repressive and corrupt regime in the worst tradition of Arab dictatorships and plunged their standard of living to unprecedented depths.

What makes this state of affairs all the more galling is that, far from being unfortunate aberrations, Hajj Amin and Arafat were quintessential representatives of the cynical and self-seeking leaders produced by the Arab political system. Just as the Palestinian leadership during the Mandate had no qualms about inciting its constituents against Zionism and the Jews, while lining its own pockets from the fruits of Jewish entrepreneurship, so PLO officials used the billions of dollars donated by the Arab oil states and, during the Oslo era, by the international community to finance their luxurious style of life while ordinary Palestinians scrambled for a livelihood.

And so it goes. Six decades after the mufti and his henchmen condemned their people to statelessness by rejecting the UN partition resolution, their reckless decisions are being reenacted by the latest generation of Palestinian leaders. This applies not only to Hamas, which in January 2006 replaced the PLO at the helm of the Palestinian Authority (PA), but also to the supposedly moderate Palestinian leadership—from President Mahmoud Abbas to Ahmad Qureia (negotiator of the 1993 Oslo Accords) to Saeb Erekat to prime minister Salam Fayad—which refuses to recognize Israel’s very existence as a Jewish state and insists on the full implementation of the “right of return.”

And so it goes as well with Western anti-Zionists who in the name of justice (no less) call today not for a new and fundamentally different Arab leadership but for the dismantlement of the Jewish state. Only when these dispositions change can Palestinian Arabs realistically look forward to putting their self-inflicted “catastrophe” behind them.



Mike



[edit on 28-5-2009 by mmiichael]


reply posted on 30-5-2009 @ 11:20 AM by A Conscience
reply to post by mmiichael


Had Arafat set the PLO from the start on the path to peace and reconciliation, instead of turning it into one of the most murderous terrorist organizations in modern times, a Palestinian state could have been established in the late 1960’s or the early 1970’s; in 1979 as a corollary to the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty; by May 1999 as part of the Oslo process; or at the very latest with the Camp David summit of July 2000


It's a bit rich to quote such a passage when Israel was founded on a bloody ethnic cleansing campaign that started in 1947 and still ongoing to this very day. Palestinians were expelled from their villages and towns. Thousands were massacred during this expulsion as was the case in Lydda, Ramleh, Dawimiyya, Sa'sa, Ein Zietun, etc. This was usually followed by rape, looting and confiscation.

The word terrorism is synonymous with the state of Israel. The Irgun (led by future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin), Haganah (led by future Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion) and Sternists (led by future Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir) were each Jewish terrorist organizations. Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was also a terrorist.

There has never been so many prime ministers from a single country that shares the same badge of war criminal and terrorist at the same time. That is an ignominy that few countries can match. People have been hung for crimes like these.

And so it goes. Six decades after the mufti and his henchmen condemned their people to statelessness by rejecting the UN partition resolution, their reckless decisions are being reenacted by the latest generation of Palestinian leaders.


This might be better explained at the time the UN approved the partition plan, Ireland's President Eamon De Valera told a person soliciting his support for the plan: “I read the Old Testament many years ago. I am afraid I have forgotten many things I read; but one passage I recall clearly. It is the story of Solomon's judgement of the two women who desired the same baby. I remember how when Solomon ruled that the baby be divided the real mother screamed, `No! No! Give the baby to the other woman!' That is my answer to partition. The rightful owners of a country will never agree to partition.”


reply posted on 30-5-2009 @ 11:22 AM by A Conscience
reply to post by mmiichael


They have entered a phase where achieving peace is no longer the real goal. They are funded and armed to be in a perpetual state of war with Israel, and casualties on their side translate to increased outside funding to continue this madness.


That whole statement really applies to Israel. I can't see how you can go on perpetuating this myth and even appear to believe in it. As they say, repeat the same lie long enough and you end up swallowing your own spew.

Or maybe it is because for decades, Israelis are taught distorted history to suit their own agenda. It is only recently, to their credit, that new textbooks disown most widely held views about the birth of the Jewish state, to the chagrin of the Israeli right wingers.

A number of new high-school textbooks, introduced last year into the Israeli curriculum, repudiate many well-documented and long-established facts about the 1948 war in favor of standard Arab/Palestinian claims, including the charge that substantial numbers of Palestinians were expelled during the war and that Israel bears sole responsibility for their ongoing status as refugees. "Only ten years ago, much of this was taboo," the Israeli author of one of the new ninth-grade textbooks boasted to the New York Times.
www.netanyahu.org...



Similarly, the myth about Arafat's doings or undoings is in most part the handiwork of Israel military intelligence.

In the first place it was not Arafat who blew up Camp David. Robert Malley, Clinton's adviser at the conference, and others have long since exhaustively debunked this for the almost ludicrously partisan myth it was. In their view, Barak himself contributed more to the collapse than Arafat.

And now comes Malka, the former intelligence chief, who flatly asserts that the evaluations of Arafat's intentions and actions on which Barak, and later Sharon, relied were "erroneous", and deliberately so. They were the handiwork of one man, who occupied a key position in the Israeli policy-making process: Amos Gilad, the head of the military intelligence research department. He presented "national security assessments" to the government. Crucially, he only did so orally, because, as he put it, "they [ministers] don't read".

But even more crucially, according to Malka, his oral reports were at variance with the written ones of his bureau, an inconsistency he made good by "retroactively rewriting them". For these written reports just couldn't support what, via his misrepresentations, became the orthodox, highly negative view of Arafat.
www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org...



" former top officials of Military Intelligience say the whole story, painting Arafat as a terrorist out to destroy Israel, was an intentional fiction. That’s the most explosive finding in an investigative report just published in Israel’s top newspaper, Ha’aretz, by one of its finest journalists, Akiva Eldar."
(source:Ira Chernus, Foreign Policy in Focus.)

One thing that I can concede is that Israel is master at the art of propaganda. A distinction that is unmatched for a long time but is now showing cracks that is slowly and surely widening.


reply posted on 30-5-2009 @ 01:09 PM by mmiichael
Originally posted by A Conscience

I can't see how you can go on perpetuating this myth and even appear to believe in it. As they say, repeat the same lie long enough and you end up swallowing your own spew.



That about sums up your own attempts to justify your Evil Jews vs Innocent Arabs worldview. In fact why even bother with the Innocent Arabs portion.

You don't and you won't ever bother to learn the actual history of the conflict, relying on whatever literature support your warped beliefs.

The fact that the Muslims of the Middle East have waged an incessant and unterminating war on Jews in the region through the 20th century means nothing to you. Whether it was 5000 Jews or 5 Million. The Arabs had time on their hands and tens of millions of volunteers to play out their tribal extermination agenda.

Facts like in 1948 there were 750-850,000 Jews being expelled from Muslim countries where many had lived for centuries means nothing. Instead of sitting in squalid camps appealing to the UN they got up and went to where they were not a persecuted minority for the first time.

Throughout history when people have declared wars and lost they learn to come to terms with the unfortunate results of their action. They make peace and move on with their lives. The Palestinians and their supporting Arab countries are notable in that they not only don't know how to win a war they don't even know how to lose one.

With you admirable acumen as an apologist for the Muslim world I suggest you apply your skills in defending the disenfranchisement and ethnic cleansing (you favoured term) to what has occurred in the Sudan, countries that house the homeland lacking Kurds, Shiite minorities in Saudi Arabia (you'll love how the Saud family took care of the Hashemites) and elsewhere.

You're of course not an anti-semite, you just are horrified by the injustices perpetrated by those terrible Zionists.

Buy a red and white dishrag, put it on your head and go fight the good fight for Truth, Justice, and the Arab Way.


Mike




[edit on 30-5-2009 by mmiichael]


reply posted on 31-5-2009 @ 02:22 AM by A Conscience
reply to post by mmiichael


You don't and you won't ever bother to learn the actual history of the conflict, relying on whatever literature support your warped beliefs.


On the contrary, most literature are totally biased towards Israel side. Thanks to the western media and powerful Israel lobby. Whenever there is any criticism towards Israel, the Zionist lobby will soon see to it that it is duly dealt with, often with such savagery that is alien to the so called democratic world.

It should be noted too, that most of Israel's ardent critics are Jews. The ones with conscience. Needless to say, they suffer extreme persecution and expulsion for having the guts and decency to voice their opinions on the dreadful injustice that are being inflicted on the Palestinians.

So, in your opinion it is alright to force feed the world on holocaust stories, but at the same time any other alternative views or a more honest viewpoint of history are considered warped?

Why are you digressing from the topic? This is about the plight of the Palestinians, not the Arab world.

The topic is about small enclave of impoverished people that are being denied any basic human rights by Israel. Even black South Africans have agreed that Gaza is even worse than the aparthied that they had suffered under.

As for the Arab world, what makes you think I am an apologist for them? Where in my posts did I even dispense a slightest hint of it. For your information, this is probably where we concur. I view the Arab world with as much disdain as you probably do. Maybe not for the same reasons.

IMO their leaders have set back their own causes for decades with their corruption, overindulgence and wastefulness while their citizens live in poverty. Not that Israel is crying out for their reforms. It suits Israel for them to continue on their non productive ways and to exploit their endless weaknesses and bickering. Classic divide and rule strategy.

Imagine if they were all as uncorrupted as Hamas, it will be Israel's worst nightmares coming true.

Throughout history when people have declared wars and lost they learn to come to terms with the unfortunate results of their action. They make peace and move on with their lives. The Palestinians and their supporting Arab countries are notable in that they not only don't know how to win a war they don't even know how to lose one.


You seem to be obsessed with this idea that you are the conquerer and the vanquished should just lie down and be trodden like animals. Get over your superiority complex! We are talking about humans treating other humans with the decency they deserve. With all the rantings about what Nazi Germany has done to the Jews, obviously nothing has got through to you.



reply posted on 2-6-2009 @ 10:17 AM by mattpryor
On the contrary, most literature are totally biased towards Israel side. Thanks to the western media and powerful Israel lobby. Whenever there is any criticism towards Israel, the Zionist lobby will soon see to it that it is duly dealt with, often with such savagery that is alien to the so called democratic world.


This is just laughably untrue. Al Jazeria is less critical of Israel than the majority of Western media.

Ask yourself, why was the conflict in Gaza earlier this year so much in the public conscience? Why did it merit front page coverage and headline television news for three weeks? Was there an horrific massacre taking place? No. Less than 1500 people died (the majority of whom were Hamas operatives). Compare this to the recent conflict in Sri Lanka where an estimated 200,000 civilians have perished. Where was the media storm? Where was the uproar? Where was the crying foul becauser reporters weren't allowed into the conflict zone? Why is there media silence over the massacres occuring in Sudan? Because these things have nothing to do with Israel and so our media did not really give a cr*p. And neither does anyone else, except for friends and relatives of those involved.

The very fact that it was seen as a "top story" for so long is absolute and irrefutable proof of the institutional disdain for Israel within our media. It was a small, localized military operation and its aims were defensive. And yet it merited front page status for three weeks.

I distinctly remember picking up the London free papers (including the Metro, London Lite, etc) and every day there was a fresh picture of a bloodied child and the words "massacre", "slaughter", etc accompanying it. How can you say this is in any way biased towards Israel? If the media was biased towards Israel it wouldn't get mentioned, or at best it would earn a column or two in world affairs.

I watched the BBC coverage of Operation Cast Lead (it was about all you could watch, nothing else seemed newsworthy). The "bombing" of the UN school (which by the way the UN have admitted did not happen) was headline news for three days. Meanwhile, there were reports from inside Gaza appearing on the BBC website which showed life to be pretty normal (well, as close to normal as one would expect in a region governed by a gang of radical Islamist thugs) which didn't make the TV. Why was this?

Where was the coverage of the hundreds of trucks of aid that Israel was sending over the border every day? Where was the coverage of the emotional stress endured by the residents of Sderot from the 7,500 rockets that have landed in peoples' homes, schools, hospitals since 2001? Where was the mention of the daily 3 hour cease-fires which Israel used to transport aid, while Hamas used to launch fresh attacks? Surely a biased media organisation would highlight these aspects to the conflict whilst minimizing the human cost of the conflict within Gaza?

Even the BBC's own watchdog committee has found them to be biased against Israel. And the BBC is probably the least partial of all the media outlets in this country, because they are tax payer funded. The Times, Guardian, Independent, Mirror, Star, were consistently viciously critical.

Anyone would think fom all this that if it weren't for Israel the Middle East would be a peaceful, harmonious place. Anyone with any knowledge of the region knows that this is not the case - politics in the Arab world is characterized by assisinations, state instituted terror at home and abroad, and the brutal suppression of dissidents. Yet apparently, in the view of our media, this pales into insignificance compared with the audacity of the tiny Jewish state for defending itself against relentless terror attacks.

A few weeks ago, the Egyptian authorities decided to slaughter every pig in the country, citing Swine Flu as the reason. They didn't do it humanely, they did it by putting the pigs in a pile and covering them with quick lime. This took about 40-60 minutes to kill them, in the most painful and horrific manner imaginable. They did this in spite of the fact that not a single case of Swine Flu had been reported within Egypt. Why did they do it? Because pigs are the main source of income to Egypt's Christian minority, and because pigs are sacred to Jews.

Where was the media storm about this intentional, barbaric persecution? And this in one of the "friendly" Middle East countries. Yet, it seems, this was not news worthy.

The most amazing thing about all this is that it's fascinating, and should be especially so to people that are interested in conspiracy theories - why is this happening? Who is pulling the strings? The political influence from Arab countries in so many aspects of our lives in the West is, if nothing else, cause for discussion - isn't it? For instance, in the UK the government is currently spending tens of millions of pounds on advertising to kerb alcohol consumption. Why? Because the WHO has told them to. Who funds and controls the WHO? Go find out. (hint - it's not the Jews!)

Sadly, people are too blinded by their contempt for Israel to ask such questions. Instead they just jump on the media band-wagon and join in with the vilification of an easy target.

As for Zionist suppression of dissenting views, perhaps you could explain why papers such as Haaretz, and the Peace Now movement, etc, can get away with being so vocally critical of their government's policies? If "the Zionists" can't even control dissent within Israel, how do you expect them to control people's opinions abroad?


reply posted on 3-6-2009 @ 08:35 AM by A Conscience
reply to post by mattpryor


Ask yourself, why was the conflict in Gaza earlier this year so much in the public conscience? Why did it merit front page coverage and headline television news for three weeks?


Is it due to the fact that Israel was acting with impunity, total disregard for humanity and world opinion? Committing war crimes against an impoverished wretched population that is fighting against all odds, and for their occupied homeland. Fighting against an army that is equipped way out of proportion in the air and on land, against a rag tag militia that has been deprived of even a fair fighting chance. Raining death and destruction on a disproportionate scale that is totally obscene and despicable.

Less than 1500 people died (the majority of whom were Hamas operatives).


I can't see how in the world you can take this as a matter of fact.

According to Gaza medical authorities, the death toll of approximately 1300 include 418 children, 118 women and 118 elderly with 5500 people injured.

The death toll was not even taking into account young or adult males. Some injuries are so horrific that recovery is impossible, thanks to the latest weapons that the IDF is testing on the civilian population.

Please google "The Other Inconvenient Truth" and see for yourself. It is too horrific to post here as it violates the T&C. If you care to seek the truth, then I implore you to have a look at it and judge for yourself or debunk it.

It was a small, localized military operation and its aims were defensive. And yet it merited front page status for three weeks.


You seem to consider the humanitarian crisis & atrocities that Israel created as inconsequential?

How about this for starters.

Israeli soldiers were shooting children, using children as human shields, bulldozing a home with a woman and child still inside, and shelling a building with civilians that were ordered to get into a day earlier.

Israel had confined Palestinian civilians to the combat zone in Gaza and intentionally prevented them from leaving during bombardment. This is considered as a "new crime against humanity"

Violating medical ethics codes during its offensive, by refusing to evacuate besieged and wounded families, but also preventing Palestinian medical teams from reaching the wounded.

16 Palestinian medical personnel were killed by Israeli fire during the offensive and that 25 were wounded while performing their duties.

Three mortar shells targeted the perimeter of the U.N. school when many people in the densely populated camp were out and about. Many of those who took shelter in the school apparently had stepped outside to get some air, thinking an area around a school was safe. 43 civilians died. Three brothers were killed at the UNRWA Asma school while taking refuge there. Another UNRWA school was hit in Beit Lahia village; at least 10 people died and dozens injured.


reply posted on 3-6-2009 @ 08:35 AM by A Conscience
reply to post by mattpryor


Where was the coverage of the hundreds of trucks of aid that Israel was sending over the border every day?


Where did you get the information from? IDF or the Israel government? How about some independent accounts.

Despite Gaza’s urgent needs and Hamas’s attempts to control aid, Israel’s broad restrictions on the delivery of food, fuel, and other goods appear without justification by any legitimate security concern. Since January 18, for example, Israel has blocked shipments of chickpeas, dates, tea bags, children’s puzzles, and macaroni.

Israel also rejected a water purification system donated by the government of France. According to Gaza’s water utility, as of February 16, 50,000 residents had no access to piped water, and an additional 100,000 receive water every seven to 10 days. Shipments of spare parts are needed before major repairs can be made, the utility said.

De-mining teams have been unable to destroy or isolate some unexploded Israeli weapons because Israel has denied entry for needed materials and equipment, OCHA reported on February 16.

According to the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), 60 percent of the 200,000 schoolchildren attending its Gaza schools are without a full complement of textbooks because Israel has blocked shipments of paper needed to print the books. The UN agency said that Israel also blocked the material needed to make plastic bags for food distribution.

Israel also continues to restrict supplies of industrial diesel fuel used to generate electricity, keeping Gaza’s only power plant operating at two-thirds capacity and exacerbating Gaza’s already severe electricity shortage. Israel blocked all petrol, diesel, and cooking gas into Gaza between February 8 and 14, OCHA said. Electricity cuts contribute to widespread water access problems.

www.hrw.org...


Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

For a people that bears so much importance in making sure the holocaust remains a great tragedy in human memory, it is so incomprehensible in the action and behaviour of that same group.


reply posted on 3-6-2009 @ 10:50 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by A Conscience


Before you read this I'd like to say that I am replying in the spirit of conciliation. I know that most of us that post on this board care about what is happening in the world and care about injustice and suffering. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

That said, I implore you to read what I've written below with an open mind instead of skipping over it and dismissing it as irrelevant because it doesn't fit with your world view.

Firstly I have read the Other Inconvenient Truth. I've seen the horrible pictures. I've also read the accusations laid out against the IDF in the Guardian, Independent, etc. I've also read the counterarguments, and on careful balance I am personally satisfied that the IDF acts, by and large, with strict adherence to the ethical codes which are at its core, namely:



Defense of the State, its Citizens and its Residents - "The IDF's goal is to defend the existence of the State of Israel, its independence and the security of the citizens and residents of the state."

Love of the Homeland and Loyalty to the Country - "At the core of service in the IDF stand the love of the homeland and the commitment and devotion to the State of Israel-a democratic state that serves as a national home for the Jewish People-its citizens and residents."

Human Dignity - "The IDF and its soldiers are obligated to protect human dignity. Every human being is of value regardless of his or her origin, religion, nationality, gender, status or position."



That's not to say that there aren't elements within the IDF that act with lower ethical standards, or who harbour their own bigotry and resentment, of course there are - but no more or less than in any other modern western army.

The acts which you list sound horrendous but they are taken out of context. For instance, you mention that the IDF targeted and killed children. Now I am not in a position to deny or accept that, since I do not know the details any more than you do, however I do know that Hamas deliberately put children and non-combatants in the line of fire in order to maximize publicity from their deaths - its a win win tactic, since if the IDF refrains from attacking then great, otherwise they get a nice propaganda piece.

I know that Hamas exploit children and women in order to strengthen themselves. I know that Hamas used hospitals and schools as bases to launch attacks against the IDF. I know that they booby-trapped schools and zoos.

I know that Hamas, like most extremists in the region, have little or no respect for the sanctity of human life. Otherwise please explain how the use of suicide bombers on school buses is a legitimate form of insurgency? Explain why a loving mother would do this?

Given the choice of who's "propaganda" to believe I prefer to believe that of a secular, pluralist democracy with a free press and a government that serves, rather than oppresses, its people. I prefer to take the word of a government of a people that are, by and large, liberal and polite over a brutal and oppressive regime driven by hatred and religious bigotry.

To automatically take the word of Israel's enemies, and discount everything Israelis say in their defence as lies and misinformation, is surely a form of prejudice in itself? I hesitate to use the A-S word because it gets used too often (and I don't want to get into a "who are the real Semites?" debate again), but can you not understand why this causes so much resentment? Are you not even open to the possibility that you could be siding with the bad guys, and have you not thought about what the consequences of that may be? I know I've wrestled with my own conscience over this problem. Haven't you?

Nonetheless, even if everything you accuse Israel of is true, and the IDF are the most abusive and hateful army in the modern world, I do not see how this refutes my argument that western media is not biased towards Israel. All you have done is provide what you see as evidence of the IDF's brutality, much of which was distributed in Western media...?

It's a horrible situation over there, and we are all just pundits working with evidence and information that has passed through many filters and lenses before it reaches us. We will always see bias if what is presented to us does not fit exactly with our own interpretation of reality.
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