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Postal workers in BNP leaflet row

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posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
How am i afraid to let the people decide and let them vote?
They WILL be getting votes at the polls soon..... we'll see.


indeed, so give them due political process and show how confident you are- you are promoting stifling their electioneering, that does not show confidence, but fear




I am against racism in general.... the BNP for me... personifies racism.
They are the epitome of everything i am personally and morally against.
They are disgusting.


we can moralise all day, I think it is disgusting that people who batter, stab and set pensioners on fire receive 14 years incarceration- that is a result of 40 years of liberal infested rule, bothe Tory and Labour- I find that disgusting, it makes me very annoyed, very annoyed, it repulses me to my soul- so yeah, we can all be repulsed........



If the LEADER of a political party has been convicted of a racist crime... i think that says a lot.


I think the world revolves around other things than race- labour party members have been convicted of violence, fraud, sex charges etc etc- it is because they are made up of human beings, and every party will have such cases- you can focus on race, like the BNP, if you wish




The fact that you don't.....well that troubles me.


Firstly, I am not really bothered about what troubles you, and secondly, Im not voting BNP so I really dont care what their leader has done



And your other example is pathetic....

Some labour or torie MP gets caught speeding or caught with a hooker...that's quite bad.... but it's not HATE CRIMES..... it's not inciting RACIAL HATRED is it??




no, some labour and tory party members get convicted of worse crimes than speeding, and no it is not "inciting" racial hatred- but then again, I hold the liberal establishment responsible for inciting racial hatred with their multi culturalism and lack of pursuit of illegal immigrants



Because it's logical, just and not racist.


you show a stunning lack of logic



I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand.


classic fascist worldview




I don't like labour or tories either.... doesn't mean i'm gonna go vote in the next Adolf Hitler though....



well, he was a socialist.............




posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup

I guess you didn't read the link i provided about the BPA.



Oh I read the link about the BPA......................from the BPA website (so funny, kudos to you, you excel yourself everytime)

It confirms it is a racist organisation and is there to focus on "black" police issues and support "black" police- they even confirmed their racist intent by putting the word "BLACK" in their title

At least they have good little houseboys to try and pretend it isn't racist- you would have told the emperor he had a lovely set of clothes on, wouldn't you





About the BLACK and ASIAN officers it defends...


One race??




Seems to exclude officers from the "white" race though doesn't it, QED- they are not annointed, they cannot join this organisation as they do not have dark enough skin




You have no clue man..... so ignorant.


you've proven yourself to be a clown




Anyway....you don't have any points.... your logic is pretty ridiculous too.
So until you have a point, i will save my responses for those who actually know a little something.


run off little liberal fascist, safe in the knowledge that you are the ultimate anti racism superhero, even though you don't even understand the term- 3 anti fa stickers patted on yer back



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
Er....stunningly funny indeed...

I guess you didn't read the link i provided about the BPA.

About the BLACK and ASIAN officers it defends...



You have no clue man..... so ignorant.



The fact that their website states


The emphasis is on the common experience and determination of the people of African, African-Caribbean and Asian origin to oppose the effects of racism.


NBPA

And yet they don't seem to be representing white officers who may suffer from racism does seem to make them look racist, if a normal police union refused to represent black or Asian officers when they were suffering from racial abuse they would be dragged through both the media and the courts as being racist so the fact that they don't seem to represent whites means they must be exactly the same and no better themselves. And they hardly help themselves when their own president is continuously in trouble over corruption at which point he continues to play the race card.


Met Police Commander Ali Dizaei is facing two charges over an incident in a restaurant, prosecutors have said. The Crown Prosecution Service said the senior officer had been charged with perverting the course of justice and misconduct in a public office. Mr Dizaei - president of the National Black Police Association, which has given him its "full support" - was suspended from the Met in September.


BBC



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:14 AM
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My previous post has been fixed.
Fat fingers and keyboards, not a good mix.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by solidshot
The fact that their website states


The emphasis is on the common experience and determination of the people of African, African-Caribbean and Asian origin to oppose the effects of racism.


NBPA

And yet they don't seem to be representing white officers who may suffer from racism does seem to make them look racist, if a normal police union refused to represent black or Asian officers when they were suffering from racial abuse they would be dragged through both the media and the courts as being racist so the fact that they don't seem to represent whites means they must be exactly the same and no better themselves. And they hardly help themselves when their own president is continuously in trouble over corruption at which point he continues to play the race card.


Met Police Commander Ali Dizaei is facing two charges over an incident in a restaurant, prosecutors have said. The Crown Prosecution Service said the senior officer had been charged with perverting the course of justice and misconduct in a public office. Mr Dizaei - president of the National Black Police Association, which has given him its "full support" - was suspended from the Met in September.


BBC




exactly, well summed up.


There is something amazing about the inversion of logic liberal fascists apply- at one point racism was bad, ie treating people differently because of race and placing people into groups (which is fascist behaviour), then it became "good" and, under an umbrealla of multi culturalism, people were encouraged (except whites) to form group identities and organisations under a racial banner (fascist behaviour)

Mental and moral acrobats like thon blup fella make for a good laugh


[edit on 21-5-2009 by blueorder]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
Not my intention at all.
No attempt at being 'sly' at all.
Stop making assumptions about people and their intentions.
I thought you were a little bit better than that but obviously not....shame.


Fair enough...but the line was taken out of context and to anyone skimming through... that may look a little strange


If that was not your intention, then i sincerely apologize (as i always do when I'm wrong) and didn't mean any offence by it.






Everyone I know thinks they are a 'Political Party', even those who absolutely despise them.
What is your definition of a 'Political Party'?
en.wikipedia.org...
Think that pretty much fit's the bill.


Oh sure.... i agree... in the "technical" sense of the word they are.
But believe me....there are many things that they do.... and people people around the world that they have forged links with who are of the same view as the BNP....although these others go about it in a more brutal and bullish way.

So yes...the BNP are a political party....but hopefully and with time, they will not be...or they will be so hated and opposed.... that they disband.





Because allegedly we live in a democracy where free speech is allowed, even if we disagree with it.
Pretty straight forward in my book and ANY restrictions on free speech should be discouraged and resisted.


Oh we do....apart from the little matter of "hate crimes" and similar legislation.



www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

And no.... i don't think simply just ANY restriction on free speech as you say, should be implimented
I think certain things most definitely SHOULD be restricted...






I merely meant to say that you seem to be very passionate about this and seem to be doing a very good job of getting your point of view across, (despite not agreeing with a lot of it)
Censorship of any kind is abhorent.
That is exactly what those Nazi's you so obviously depsise so much did.
Can't you see the similarities?


Oh and you too my friend....i am understanding and considering your points and am thoroughly enjoying the debate


And yes....i know what you mean and can see the similarities....however... the Nazis were not doing it for moral or just reasons....they were doing it out of hatred and intolerance....more in line with the BNP.

I think some things should be censored.






The way to oppose something is to speak out and to counter their arguements, not to ban them.
If you are then I respect you for having the strength of your convictions to do something positive rather than to just sit and moan.
No assumption was made at all, except by you possibly?


Thank you.
ATS tries to be impartial and against activism ETC.
I am not getting into any discussions about anything to do with it... but yes, thanks.

And no.... no assumptions on my part... no more so anyway.





Hell, I never want a BNP government, (I despise Party Politics as a whole, it is outdated and has failed us miserably!)
But, and it is a massive but, they are striking a chord with the general population at present with their concerns on immigration, the EU etc which the major parties are completely ignoring.
A sizeable vote for the BNP will acts as a catalyst to provoke debate.
It is sad that it has come to this but both the major political parties and our current electoral and government processes have let us down so much and have led us to this awful place.


As i said.... why "use" the BNP as quick fix to a long term issue?
UKIP have a similar stance on Europe and immigration, yet without the "lets kick foreigners out" crap...

Not that i particularly like UKIP.

In fact there is barely a party worth mentioning.
They are all as bad as each other really.

But i won't cut off my nose to spite my face.





Please do not make accusations in future without seeking clarification, some things are simply mis-interpreted, other's are just errors of judgement or genuine mistakes.


As i have said, if it was an assumption, i apologize.
And please don't quote me out of context in future.... it kinda looks odd.

Thanks.






[edit on 21/5/09 by blupblup]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:26 AM
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I just got a flyer through my door. Read it. ripped it up. Binned it.

It was just scaremongering bigoted crap.

My grandfather fought in WW2 to prevent people with a facist agenda from taking power in this country.

The party in question has its roots in Oswald Moselys's British Nazi party. Oh sure, its trying to rebrand, and its trying to be slick, but thats where it came from, and that - judging by what I just read because of its obvious and very very deliberate mention of only one religious group - is still very much at the cores of its policies.

Of course...its all dressed up to sound much more reasonable...but its not.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:26 AM
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Originally posted by solidshot
And yet they don't seem to be representing white officers who may suffer from racism does seem to make them look racist,


Do you not understand why this was set up?

It was set up because the level of racism prevalent in the police force here in the UK was unfathomable.

Did you read the quote that the chief of police and police commissioner both said that this was a LAST RESORT.

It couldn't be any clearer!



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
I just got a flyer through my door. Read it. ripped it up. Binned it.
It was just scaremongering bigoted crap.
My grandfather fought in WW2 to prevent people with a facist agenda from taking power in this country.

The party in question has its roots in Oswald Moselys's British Nazi party. Oh sure, its trying to rebrand, and its trying to be slick, but thats where it came from, and that - judging by what I just read because of its obvious and very very deliberate mention of only one religious group - is still very much at the cores of its policies.
Of course...its all dressed up to sound much more reasonable...but its not.


Exactly, good on you mate.

People are thinking that the BNP is somehow different from the NF, Combat 18 and the Nazi party et al.

They are NOT.

they are the SAME THING.... just dressed up and re-branded...

WAKE UP BRITAIN......



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by Nammu
reply to post by AR154
 


I have to agree with you AR154. At first i was thinking 'Excellent! Go the postal workers!', then I thought about what the implications might be. We're leaving it up to them to not deliver mail that they deem to be offensive.

So maybe some Christian postal guy might decide he's not delivering this month's newsletter for the local mosque, or maybe a Jewish postal worker might decide my local 'Digger' newspaper is anti-semetic, or a Muslim postal worker decides a magazine article is offensive.

At the end of the day, they're there to deliver the mail, not to police it.


what if the postal worker knew he was delivering child S&M material, would that change your mind?



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:38 AM
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Originally posted by solidshot

Originally posted by blupblup


Are so blind that you don't see what is in front of your own face?

The BNP are a racist party.


The British National Party (BNP) is a far-right and whites-only political party in the United Kingdom.





And I'm afraid that quote is out of date by several years as shown here


The party, which is preparing for its biggest-ever electoral campaign, has chosen Sharif Abdel Gawad to fight Bowling and Bakerend ward in Bradford. It describes Mr Gawad as a “totally assimilated Greek Armenian” whose grandfather, an Armenian Christian, claimed asylum in Britain.


Times

Going by this article they changed party policy in 2004 or so?


The British National Party is drawing up plans to allow people from ethnic minorities to become members.


Guardian


Blupblup I've qouted this post because you conveniently bypassed it.

It seems you are living in the past as far as the BNP party are concerned.

If they are fine tuning their policies to be more inclusive, you should at least give them credit , even begrudgingly.

It seems the BNP is trying to move along to a new day, but people like you are stuck in the past.

If you keep banging on about their past misdeeds without even acknowledging any improvements and corrections, it makes you look a little baised, racist ,intolerant and inflexible yourself.

You keep saying to me to do my research.
Friend, I think you should take your own advice.

Peace.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:42 AM
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reply to post by Flighty
 




Perhaps read the thread mate.... then you wont look silly.

I responded to that on the last page.



Here is my response.


Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by solidshot
 


Yeah....and do you remember the controversy it caused..?

Including the resignation of the Bradford BNP organizer?

www.independent.co.uk...

And yeah.... it's funny why they had to "convince" most party members that he was in fact "white" according to their interpretation of white.


The selection was reported to have caused some dissent within parts of the BNP, however, it was defended by the BNP leadership who said "ordinary members can rest assured that Sharif Gawad is not a racial alien. Sharif, despite his name, is white and British and the British National Party is staying true to its core principles". "Mr Gawad fulfilled the BNP criteria of being "a member of the white European race of people", they affirmed.



Source



So yes...... now i say not only research.... but READ THE THREAD.


[edit on 21/5/09 by blupblup]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
My grandfather fought in WW2 to prevent people with a facist agenda from taking power in this country.

The party in question has its roots in Oswald Moselys's British Nazi party.


Can't speak for your grandfather but most people i know including my own grandparents who server during the war fought not only to save their country but also so that everyone be the far left wing centre ground or even far right wing would be able to maintain their freedom of speech (something they wouldn't have been able to do under Adolf or Stalin.)

And whilst the early BNP may have had similar ideologies to the party of Oswald Mosely i have never been able to find any proof that the BNP was formed from the ashes of that party or any other tenuous link, so can you link me anything please?

[edit on 21-5-2009 by solidshot]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:50 AM
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This is quite ridiculous. Postal workers absolutely should not be allowed to decide what mail I get based on their own opinion. I'm not a supporter of the BNP, but as a voter I should be allowed to see their literature along with all the others and make up my own mind. If I conclude it's racist rubbish then so be it. But that's MY decision to make and nobody elses
It would be exactly the same if it was junk mail - the fact it's a legitimate political party (regardless of their agenda) just makes it much, much worse.

EDIT: Found this is one of the linked news stories

"We have a national agreement, known as the 'conscience clause', between the union and the Royal Mail. The clause says members don't have to deliver material if they feel threatened or if it is against their personal beliefs."

Against their personal beliefs
I'm stunned. That is absolutely ridiculous. Is this the case for postal carriers around the globe?

[edit on 21-5-2009 by Curio]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
Yes that's right.

Because i am against racism and find the BNP to be a disgusting group of ignorant ***** ..... that must mean i am all for the NWO.


You certainly are sounding that way, yes.


Originally posted by blupblupI think you are painting a rather distorted picture of my views...


No, I'm telling you what the flipside of your views is. You don't seem to see that by enforcing your own particular moral code on the world, you would in turn be oppressing the opinions of members of the indigenous population of this country. Who are you to tell them those opinions are not valid? To tell them that they are wrong, disgusting, ignorant and the rest?

While I personally consider racism abhorrent, I would not tell others that they may not be racist. If they want to, that's their choice. I won't respect them for it, and would never support them in it, but I would never tell them they may not be racist because they are free adults and may choose to exist any way they wish.


Originally posted by blupblupI love diversity and love my country and love multiculturalism


So why wasn't multiculturalism voted for? Why was it foisted upon me with no say or consideration to me at all? I'm English, I live on this scepter'd isle, this green and pleasant land, I pay taxes, I don't have a criminal record, so why was it not my decision what kind of people we allow here to alter the way my country works?

I don't see why Engish culture has to be the victim to cultures that are inferior.



Originally posted by blupblup.... which is exactly why your whole

"no free speech, no free thought. Everyone will be identical, there are no differences between anyone - nobody is allowed an independent say."

Is absolutely against what i am talking about.
I don't get how you can arrive at that conclusions because i am against the BNP and against racism??

Very strange....


Are you a fool? I'm not insulting you, I am asking a question.

If you can't see how telling others that they may not think, say or act in a way that is contrary to your ideas is in any way fascist or totalitarian, then you are

If you can see this, then you aren' but if you can see it, then you must know that you are a liberal fascist.


edited to remove personal attack and cenor circumvention.
gallopinghordes
ATS member and mod

[edit on 21-5-2009 by gallopinghordes]

[edit on 21-5-2009 by gallopinghordes]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by solidshot
 


BNP History

History of the BNP



The British National Party was formed by John Tyndall, co-founder of the National Front, in 1982.


John Tyndall



Tyndall was first politically active in the League of Empire Loyalists, a right-wing pressure group, led by A.K. Chesterton.


League of Empire Loyalists



It was a small group of current or former members of the Conservative Party led by Arthur K. Chesterton, a former leading figure in the British Union of Fascists, who had served under Oswald Mosley.


There ya go.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 08:09 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 



So as i said in the early days they had similar ideologies, that link just proves that there is no direct link between the BNP and Oswald Moseley's party, if A.K. Chesterton had set up the BNP after setting up League of Empire Loyalists you could have claimed this but the BNP was set up by John Tyndall so there is actually only a tenuous link of guilt by association.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 08:13 AM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


Okay fair enough, thanks for that...


Now my question is this.......
So you still have a problem because this Sharif Gawad is white?
Aren't migrants from European countries in the melting pot of multiculturalism too? Or is multiculturalism only BLACK to you??

Just interested in where exactly you are coming from.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by Flighty]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by solidshot
so there is actually only a tenuous link of guilt by association.


I think you'll find the politial ideology remained the same.

Birds of a feather, as they say.....



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup




Fair enough...but the line was taken out of context and to anyone skimming through... that may look a little strange


If that was not your intention, then i sincerely apologize (as i always do when I'm wrong) and didn't mean any offence by it.


No offence taken.
And i'll be more careful with quotes in future.
Funny thing is I once argued with a member for doing exactly what you thought I had, difference was he deliberately tried to mis-quote me and mislead people.
I wasn't happy!



Oh sure.... i agree... in the "technical" sense of the word they are.
But believe me....there are many things that they do.... and people people around the world that they have forged links with who are of the same view as the BNP....although these others go about it in a more brutal and bullish way.

So yes...the BNP are a political party....but hopefully and with time, they will not be...or they will be so hated and opposed.... that they disband.


And that would be as it should be...things fade away and die when there is no need for them.
But...till then, they ARE a political party representing the views of a proportion of society and as such should be afforded all the same rights as other political parties.
It is wrong to cherry pick who is allowed to publish political works or to stand for election.





Because allegedly we live in a democracy where free speech is allowed, even if we disagree with it.
Pretty straight forward in my book and ANY restrictions on free speech should be discouraged and resisted.


Oh we do....apart from the little matter of "hate crimes" and similar legislation.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

And no.... i don't think simply just ANY restriction on free speech as you say, should be implimented
I think certain things most definitely SHOULD be restricted...


We do not live in a democracy.
We do not live in a free world.
We should.
There should be NO restriction to free speech.
Are we not all equal?
Who decides what should be restricted?

How can we have open, honest debate if certain subjects / opinions aren't allowed.
Next thing we'll have book burnings.
Or maybe Gulag's.
You do see where that leads don't you.





And yes....i know what you mean and can see the similarities....however... the Nazis were not doing it for moral or just reasons....they were doing it out of hatred and intolerance....more in line with the BNP.



Wrong.
The Nazi's thought themselves very moral and just.
It depends on your perception.
And were the Nazi's any worse than Stalin?
en.wikipedia.org...
wiki.answers.com...
How about Mao?
en.wikipedia.org...
wiki.answers.com...

The Socialist Workers Party openly advocates the return to Marxism and Communism which led to the above atrocities.
Why don't we ban them too?
Why just single out the BNP?
Hell, why stop there, what about the odious teachings of Islam, Christianity, Judaism?
How many people have died in the name of democracy in recent years?

Banning and censorship is not the answer.

Open and honest debate in a free society is.

That is impossible at present.



I think some things should be censored.


Apart from paedophilia I don't think anything whatsoever should be censored.






The way to oppose something is to speak out and to counter their arguements, not to ban them.
If you are then I respect you for having the strength of your convictions to do something positive rather than to just sit and moan.
No assumption was made at all, except by you possibly?


Thank you.
ATS tries to be impartial and against activism ETC.
I am not getting into any discussions about anything to do with it... but yes, thanks.


Activism should be encouraged.
ATS does try to be impartial but I have never known it be anti-Activism.
In fact I think it wants to people to have the strength of their convictions to actually do something.

Too many people in this country just sit back and moan but when it comes down to it they haven't the bottle to do anything at all.
They are scared and frightened.
We have become a nation of whingers.
Our ancestors would be ashamed of us.





Hell, I never want a BNP government, (I despise Party Politics as a whole, it is outdated and has failed us miserably!)
But, and it is a massive but, they are striking a chord with the general population at present with their concerns on immigration, the EU etc which the major parties are completely ignoring.
A sizeable vote for the BNP will acts as a catalyst to provoke debate.
It is sad that it has come to this but both the major political parties and our current electoral and government processes have let us down so much and have led us to this awful place.


As i said.... why "use" the BNP as quick fix to a long term issue?
UKIP have a similar stance on Europe and immigration, yet without the "lets kick foreigners out" crap...

Not that i particularly like UKIP.


Because the BNP stirs up emotions and causes debate, simply by their nature.
They will insist on bringing the issues that people want sorting bringing to the fore; immigration and EU Membership.
No other party will ensure that.

UKIP are Tory funded and only there to split the right wing vote.
An old and transparent tactic.


[edit on 21/5/09 by Freeborn]




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