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Postal workers in BNP leaflet row

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posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup


I feel that racism is the among the worst things in society.
And i will do my bit to stamp it out when and where i can.


Thanks


And yet you criticise it if it's carried out by a group like the BNP, But if a group like the NBPA or the Labour party carry out so called "positive racism" you don't seem to criticise this, even though it is still blatantly racism




posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


Blupblup you are not just opinionated. I am opinionated, i agree with you completely on the BNP and racism and yet i still think the BNP should be absolutely able to voice their disgusting message. You i'm afraid have been caught up in your own zeal for the subject. It is not your duty to force your opinion onto others. You can say whatever you like in regards to the BNP but to try and say that they shouldn't be allowed to voice their views and support those who would actively stop them from doing so is exactly what dictators do.

You are on one hand supporting a free system whilst simultaneously betraying that system by promoting censorship.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder


one could argue about the fascist intent of the BNP, similarly one could argue, with confidence, in the fascism of your position

You support the suppression of opposition by censorship and terror (banning their leaflets and deporting them)- you support fascist methodology



One could do what one likes.....

I have no policies.... only opinions.

Fascism is an inherently nationalistic political ideology.... i am totally against racism am not keen on nationalism either..

Try and twist and turn all you like man....

I am not a dictator.... i am an opinionated human being.

But you know what fascism means anyway right?

I don't have to explain that to you....



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:13 AM
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I used to be quite "open minded" shall we say, but I feel that I am in an undeclared state of war with the liberal/left and their attempts at destroying the very civilisation which spawns them

Like blup, I too may be forced to consider fascist methodology in the future, for the good of the nation



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by blupblup
 

Blupblup you are not just opinionated. I am opinionated, i agree with you completely on the BNP and racism and yet i still think the BNP should be absolutely able to voice their disgusting message. You i'm afraid have been caught up in your own zeal for the subject. It is not your duty to force your opinion onto others. You can say whatever you like in regards to the BNP but to try and say that they shouldn't be allowed to voice their views and support those who would actively stop them from doing so is exactly what dictators do.
You are on one hand supporting a free system whilst simultaneously betraying that system by promoting censorship.


Well, in my last response to you...i said in a political sense...they should be allowed to be heard...as should everyone.

It was in my OPINION, that i said i couldn't stand them and they should be booted out.

I am all for free speech in the political arena... doesn't mean that i have to PERSONALLY agree with it.


It may not be my "duty" to force my opinion on others.... not that i said that anyway.... but i have the right to express my opinions, just like anyone else.... as long as they don't break any laws.

And i totally disagree and am against racism.... so i will always speak my mind about it.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup
One could do what one likes.....


yes, one could, one could skip together with a chinese man, an african man and an asian man and hold a "NO WHITE EXPERIENCE IS VALID" and also hold a banner saying "DOWN WITH RACISM"- one could do that couldn't one!



I have no policies.... only opinions.


a racist may only have racist opinions but no policies, does he then cease to be a racist, is this some bizzarre twisted chinese proverb updated in some students' union?



Fascism is an inherently nationalistic political ideology.... i am totally against racism am not keen on nationalism either..


One aspect of fascism is nationalism- that is not the only aspect of fascism as I am sure you are aware




Try and twist and turn all you like man....


you've gutted yerself more times than enough on this thread



I am not a dictator.... i am an opinionated human being.


Stalin and Mussolini were opinionated



But you know what fascism means anyway right?


I have an opinion on it, based on study and reading- however you have already shown your hand in respect of fascism and it has been pointed out that you have fascist tendencies based on the hand you have shown



I don't have to explain that to you....



you go "sister"



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
yes, one could, one could skip together with a chinese man, an african man and an asian man and hold a "NO WHITE EXPERIENCE IS VALID" and also hold a banner saying "DOWN WITH RACISM"- one could do that couldn't one!


Er china is in ASIA???



Your ignorance knows no limits









One aspect of fascism is nationalism- that is not the only aspect of fascism as I am sure you are aware


Well no....but it's a political ideology..

I suggest a little further reading mate.

I wasn't saying that nationalism was the only aspect of fascism... that's just your warped interpretation of my post....

i was actually saying that Fascism is more a political thing than someone, who is not a politician, having opinions.






Stalin and Mussolini were opinionated


And also dictators...


Again... your points are just ludicrous... you make no sense...?





I have an opinion on it, based on study and reading- however you have already shown your hand in respect of fascism and it has been pointed out that you have fascist tendencies based on the hand you have shown


As i said, i suggest a little "further reading"






you go "sister"


Cheers...i will xx

[edit on 21/5/09 by blupblup]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by blupblup

Er china is in ASIA???



Your ignorance knows no limits



Blupblup i am usually quite respectful towards you but here you've crossed a line with this guy. I don't know where abouts you are from but i can tell you this.

Where i'm from we refer to asian people as being from india and other areas, Chinese people are not included in that and are often called oriental. This is nothing more that a local way of talking that you are unaware of. Be very careful of calling someone ignorant when you yourself are ignorant of this fact.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by PrisonerOfSociety

Have you been to Handsworth in Birmingham, Salford, Manchester or Leicester. If you're white and walk the streets at night, you'd get your head kicked in by the ethnic 'yoot'.


I walked from my sisters house in one area of cheetham hill, manchester to another house about half a mile away. It was christmas, and i was shocked to get a bottle chucked at me from a passing car, shouting 'Merry Christmas'. I have walked home from the ciry centre to her house which is just off the high street in cheetham hill many times, and that was the only time i ever experienced a problem.

I have been out less times in my own county, the other side of britain and you know what i have experienced and witnessed more violence and abuse from white yobs than any other ethnic group. In fact many 'trendy' pubs that made up the towns local night out hotspot were shut down for this reason. They attacked anyone, women, pregnant women and even the elderly....for laughs. I stopped going out for this reason.

These yobs are a drain on our councils resources and actually cost people there lives too by starting fires and hoaxing calls. They robbin and throwing stuff at the firetrucks and firemen (who deserve medals for putting up with this crap). They are abusing the resources that are needed elsewhere in the town where a real fire has broken out and lives need saving.

a problem seen all over the country:

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.acadvertiser.co.uk...

www.dailyrecord.co.uk... 2919/

antisocialbritain.blogspot.com...

www.thestar.co.uk...

www.chad.co.uk...



[edit on 21-5-2009 by MCoG1980]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by blupblup
Er china is in ASIA???

Your ignorance knows no limits



Blupblup i am usually quite respectful towards you but here you've crossed a line with this guy. I don't know where abouts you are from but i can tell you this.

Where i'm from we refer to asian people as being from india and other areas, Chinese people are not included in that and are often called oriental. This is nothing more that a local way of talking that you are unaware of. Be very careful of calling someone ignorant when you yourself are ignorant of this fact.



Say what you like mate..... China is in ASIA.

It is ignorant to say what he said... it's not about regional variations or interpretations of geography.... it is a FACT.

Thanks though.




posted on May, 21 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by blupblup
 


Mate quote those facts all day long, they don't work in regards to a regional way of speaking. It's a silly way of trying to resolve that issue. In places like Birmingham people from India and Pakistan are referred to as asian whereas Chinese people are referred to as oriental. If you don't like that then fine but don't have a go at someone for using what may very well be a regional way of speaking. I should also point out that on many benefits forms, asian is often split into Pakistanian, Indian a few others and Chinese and Japanese are under oriental. I wonder if our different way of using the term stems from modern geography vs geaneology?


Back on topic.

The BNP need to be able to spread their stupid views, if we start censoring things then we are going down the wrong path at 100MPH. You can have your opinions, that is part of free speech, but to applaud these workers for basically betraying the idea of a democracy whilst supporting your own right to speak out is utterly hypocritical. You do see that right? The workers have a duty to deliver the mail impartially. It's the same with a doctor. They are not allowed to refuse treatment to anyone including paedophiles, rapists, murderers etc. The postal workers are far out of line but just because they agree with something you believe then it's fine?

Start standing up for your democracy instead of betraying it.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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Crikey, well this one took off didn't it?

Can't say I'm suprised


Some musings.....

If - as has been stated - censorship is facism, then those saying such are fine with child porn being plastered all over everywhere, and have no problems with religious extremists openly spouting abusive hatred in public, on TV and radio, because preventing all that is facistic, isn' it? After all censorship is bad, right?

The only times I've been openly threatened during my 9 years of working and socialising in Bradford was by a group of about 12 people, ranging in age from about 14 to 25, who were in various stages of drunkeness, in the middle of the city centre, at 11.30pm at night. I know which ethicity they were, and you know what, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, because they were just drunken idiots.

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can drag out a "horror" story about an experience if they want to. It may be true, it may not. Its a tactic often used to promote the most base of human reactions, which is fear. You have to weigh them all on their own merits, but you must be aware that you are likely being played for a reason. And if the story relates to only one section of society, then its being done for a reason. There are idiots in all walks of life.

The problem with propaganda is that it can be made to sound reasonable. Ask anyone who lived in Germany in the 1930's.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
If - as has been stated - censorship is facism, then those saying such are fine with child porn being plastered all over everywhere, and have no problems with religious extremists openly spouting abusive hatred in public, on TV and radio, because preventing all that is facistic, isn' it? After all censorship is bad, right?



Words vs actions. Child pornography would involve the abuse and therefore damage of a child. The people here calling others fascist are talking about free speech where no one is physically harmed or being incited to physically harm. For this reason do you not think this part of your argument is unfair?



Originally posted by neformore
The only times I've been openly threatened during my 9 years of working and socialising in Bradford was by a group of about 12 people, ranging in age from about 14 to 25, who were in various stages of drunkeness, in the middle of the city centre, at 11.30pm at night. I know which ethicity they were, and you know what, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, because they were just drunken idiots.


I've been threatened by black people, asian people, oriental people, but you know what? The most common insult comes from chavvy looking white teenagers. I wonder why the BNP never mention that.


Originally posted by neformore
Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can drag out a "horror" story about an experience if they want to. It may be true, it may not. Its a tactic often used to promote the most base of human reactions, which is fear. You have to weigh them all on their own merits, but you must be aware that you are likely being played for a reason. And if the story relates to only one section of society, then its being done for a reason. There are idiots in all walks of life.


Forgive me but the first part of yours i quoted here was attempting to play people. You equated the defense of free speech with child pornography. If that isn't playing on peoples emotions i don't know what is. The rest of your post i can concur with but that bit should be retracted quite quickly as you were comparing a violent act and words inciting violence to the BNPs' propoganda. Whilst their propoganda is disgusting they haven't promoted violence. Of course behind the scenes is another matter and we can all read those between the lines bits of theres but there is nothing to prosecute over and therefore they must be allowed to say what they have to say.


Originally posted by neformore
The problem with propaganda is that it can be made to sound reasonable. Ask anyone who lived in Germany in the 1930's.


Yes i must admit i'm deeply fearful that is exactly what we are seeing. Only this time it is Muslims instead of Jews. Of course immigrants as a while are given a hard time by the BNP but Muslims seem to be the focus of the general public. Note i wasn't saying all Muslims are immigrants here, just saying they're the biggest group that are attacked.

Well even though i disagreeed with the first quote of yours i've put up here i'm still starring you



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
The problem with propaganda is that it can be made to sound reasonable. Ask anyone who lived in Germany in the 1930's.


This is true but let's not forget that all political parties use propaganda, for instance the top three parties have been ramming down our throat for decades that immigration is good for us even though many of us have had to stand by and watch our communities destroyed by it, and yet do we stop the top three from distributing their propaganda? of course not but we do try to stop parties with the exact opposite from distributing theirs.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 01:41 PM
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Hi All..

Ive been reading this thread with interest as i once (several years ago now) used to be a driver for the Royal Mail.

I do agree that postal workers should not really be in a position where the mail can be policed however i think that the the CWU should not get involved with this as they could be seen to have a vested interest.

Im not sure if it has already been mentioned on here previous but the CWU (Communication Workers Union) who have stated that they are supporting this also supply funding to the Labour Party... wouldnt that be a conflict of interests


heres a link that mentions the CWU's funding of the Labour Party

www.examiner.co.uk... ns-86081-23013089/

Cheers all


[edit on 21/5/2009 by chroot]



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Forgive me but the first part of yours i quoted here was attempting to play people. You equated the defense of free speech with child pornography. If that isn't playing on peoples emotions i don't know what is.


OK. Hands up. You caught me
That was the intention. See how easy it is to do? Just a few simple words and blam....

Which leads us to...


Originally posted by neformore
The problem with propaganda is that it can be made to sound reasonable. Ask anyone who lived in Germany in the 1930's.


and then you saying



Yes i must admit i'm deeply fearful that is exactly what we are seeing. Only this time it is Muslims instead of Jews. Of course immigrants as a while are given a hard time by the BNP but Muslims seem to be the focus of the general public.


Which is the exact point I was trying to make. The crap I recieved in my mail this morning made a pointed effort to single out muslims in a direct and deliberate manner not once, but twice.

The problems Britain faces as a whole aren't just caused by muslims, they are caused by a whole swathe of things, and as 96-97% of the population of the UK is non-muslim, I have to question why that targetting was carried out. For a party that is supposedly "moving on from its facist roots" as we have been told in this thread, its more than a little bit suspect, don't you think?



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
Which is the exact point I was trying to make. The crap I recieved in my mail this morning made a pointed effort to single out muslims in a direct and deliberate manner not once, but twice.

The problems Britain faces as a whole aren't just caused by muslims, they are caused by a whole swathe of things, and as 96-97% of the population of the UK is non-muslim, I have to question why that targetting was carried out. For a party that is supposedly "moving on from its facist roots" as we have been told in this thread, its more than a little bit suspect, don't you think?


I have never disagreed with you on the BNP issue, i think i have made my feelings very clear in regards to this pathetic group of individuals. However, as much as they disgust me, as much as i truly detest them i must support their right to post whatever they wish to people using our mailing system. As long as they don't bring physical harm, or incite physical harm then i support their right to say what they wish. To do anything else would be arguing against free speech, an ideal i hold so high i can promise you i would die for it.

As for the point you make about it being suspect, i again agree completely. However in the end the thread isn't about that, it is about the right of a political party to send out it's propoganda unhindered. Labour, conservatives, liberals, they can all do it. the BNP should not be stopped from sending out all their leaflets.

Besides, their leaflets are really filling up my compost bin. Don't stop me getting free compost material!



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
The BNP need to be able to spread their stupid views, if we start censoring things then we are going down the wrong path at 100MPH. You can have your opinions, that is part of free speech, but to applaud these workers for basically betraying the idea of a democracy whilst supporting your own right to speak out is utterly hypocritical. You do see that right?

Start standing up for your democracy instead of betraying it.




But they don't have to....

Under the "Conscience clause" of 2005.

The CWU Communication Workers Union, implemented this....to prevent exactly this kind of thing.

I think it sends a strong message to the BNP....and i am glad they made a stand.

I'm all for democracy....but hate speech is illegal... so.... rock and a hard place i guess.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by blupblup

But they don't have to....

Under the "Conscience clause" of 2005.

The CWU Communication Workers Union, implemented this....to prevent exactly this kind of thing.

I think it sends a strong message to the BNP....and i am glad they made a stand.

I'm all for democracy....but hate speech is illegal... so.... rock and a hard place i guess.


Hate speech yes, but the BNP manage to straddle that very fine line and that is why the postal workers are out of order. The fact that the BNP haven't been arrested (at least not recently) shows that they have not commited the crime of hate speech. They are cloaking their motives by saying they are against immigration when we already have enough people. Their cloak of course is as see through as jack the rippers smile but it is allowing them to stay within the law. Therefore the clause you state doesn't apply.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Hate speech yes, but the BNP manage to straddle that very fine line and that is why the postal workers are out of order. The fact that the BNP haven't been arrested (at least not recently) shows that they have not commited the crime of hate speech. They are cloaking their motives by saying they are against immigration when we already have enough people. Their cloak of course is as see through as jack the rippers smile but it is allowing them to sty within the law. Therefore the clause you state doesn't apply.



They may well "straddle it" and as i said.... they've wised up a bit.

Doesn't change what they are and what they stand for.

And no recent arrests..??

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.timesonline.co.uk...


Plus many others for similar reasons...

Inciting racial hatred and so on...

Have you seen any of the documentaries about the BNP....like the BBC Exposé and others....?
They have become much more covert.... the trick is exposing them my friend.


A couple of articles on the Mr. Griffin and the BNP.

www.hopenothate.org.uk...

www.hopenothate.org.uk...



[edit on 21/5/09 by blupblup]



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