maybe if??

Originally posted by jmdewey60

 

As I did not love or keep what Jesus said, it was the father I heard.

I have to be sceptical of your so-called wisdom.

Good, there is no replacement for your own personal relationship with the father, and I am certainly not any such replacement. I was told by the father to not make any authority out of myself etc, so if you did believe me and weren't skeptical I'd call you a fool.

Read this and tell me how you can still be right:

Acts 3: 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

And yet, Jesus says the father will send the holy spirit as Jesus has returned to the father.

As well, how many times does Jesus have to say it is not he that does the works, but the father within him? But yet, I'm supposed to see a difference between Jesus and the father here? Why?

Again from John 14

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Furthermore, God says he will speak to people in a vision or a dream. Also exactly what I experienced.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

So, are you saying God lied? Or are you saying I recieved a serpent when I asked for a fish?

Jesus is who God sent to speak to us and if we do not listen to him and take heed, we are condemned.

Jesus is just a messenger. I was shown by the father that the physical "Jesus" doesn't matter, it was the message and understanding that was important. The physical body and so forth is just a tool used to give that message. I'm sorry you are blinded by idols and miss the understanding.

And I should not fail to point out that I think you are wrong to think Adam and Eve did the right thing to eat of the forbidden fruit. Knowing evil is not necessary for knowing good. That is a horrible thought that makes God out to be an evil person.

Right, because the world isn't full of evil and so forth? Give me a break, that is ridiculous. I guess then according to you that because there is evil in the world, then god is just bad. Because afterall, is it not he who created all things?

You think god doesn't know evil? Then you are a fool period.

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And it's not just the serpent who makes the statement about good and evil.

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gee, what does that say? Oh yeah exactly what I said. We took from the tree of knowledge to learn both good and evil, and we were removed to protect the rest of the life in the garden(universe).

And then commandments are given, they are misunderstood. Jesus comes to fulfill the laws and be the example on how to properly follow the commandments so that one may have wisdom and make the correct choice and no longer do evil.

So, in short you have called Jesus a liar, and you have called God a liar.

If Adam and eve did the "right" thing in the garden is beside the point. It's a bit past that point. The fact of the matter is - you are here. The world has evil in it, and you are experiencing both good and evil. Ignore that at your own risk.

Typical blind christian stuff, all about a personal relationship with god, but hell will come before you actually allow it. Apparently to you, a personal relationship means reading the bible through the perspective of other men. Sorry, I do not let other men do my thinking for me.

You enter not, and you block and deny of it others.

[edit on 25-5-2009 by badmedia]

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

If you know the father, where are your treasures? Where is the wisdom and why don't those who claim to know the father have no knowledge outside what has been given to them by men?

I'm sick of people coming along claiming all these things, when they show absolutely no real signs of anything. They have no knowledge of experiences and so forth. This is all contrary to what is said, and contrary to intelligence, understanding and wisdom.

I'm sick of people who look for the easy way. And thats all Christianity is, the so called easy way while walking on the broad path. It is a lie. And I have no tolerance for the lie at all. I will not put up with it, and I will call it out at every chance I get.

Do you guys even think about these things at all? Do you really think this entire life is for no reason? Do you really think it's all about just accepting an idol? Do you realize how ridiculous and stupid that is? And you expect me to believe that the father is stupid? No, I will NOT.

So, hmmm what do I choose between. A living god who has wisdom and understanding and gives to me in this way. Or a religion that is built upon ignorance, acceptance and dogma. A religion that puts men in charge and authority, or do I take the father as authority? Sorry, you already lost.

I'm your huckleberry.

[edit on 25-5-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

Jesus says the father will send the holy spirit as Jesus has returned to the father.

He was sending the Holy Spirit to bring us the ability to understand what he said when he was here and to bring them into remembrance.

I'm supposed to see a difference between Jesus and the father here? Why?

You are supposed to see the difference between Jesus and yourself. He is saying that because he does these works that only the one sent from God can do, we know he is not an ordinary person.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

We saw God when we were looking at Jesus because he was the image of God. It is not saying that because Jesus was here we all of a sudden are able to look into heaven and see God.

God says he will speak to people in a vision or a dream.

God says young men will have visions and old men will have dreams. It does not say God talks to us directly.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

This was a challenge spoken out of anger by God and is not some nice little promise to let people have an enjoyable experience.

So, are you saying God lied? Or are you saying I recieved a serpent when I asked for a fish?

No, because he says only Moses will have direct speech from God and can see Him, compared to others who will only have dark and unclear dreams.

Jesus is just a messenger. I was shown by the father that the physical "Jesus" doesn't matter, it was the message and understanding that was important. The physical body and so forth is just a tool used to give that message. I'm sorry you are blinded by idols and miss the understanding.

Paul says that anyone who does not teach that Jesus came in the flesh is the antichrist.

You think god doesn't know evil?

Who was supposed to eat the fruit forbidden of Adam to eat? I would guess God.

Jesus comes to fulfill the laws

The Law and the Prophets. He fulfilled the prophecies, including the one I mentioned by Moses, in the Law.

Apparently to you, a personal relationship means reading the bible through the perspective of other men.

Why would you think I was any different than you? You do not know that.


[edit on 25-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
He was sending the Holy Spirit to bring us the ability to understand what he said when he was here and to bring them into remembrance.

And yet, apparently that is the same understanding men can give you? Apparently that involves the holy spirit reading the bible to you? Or are you saying the holy spirit is the bible?

You are supposed to see the difference between Jesus and yourself. He is saying that because he does these works that only the one sent from God can do, we know he is not an ordinary person.

Once again, from John 14.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So, if you do not understand this, then how can you say what you did above about the holy spirit? And if he goes to the father, then how is he supposed to be there to show you the way, unless his life example is that path?

We saw God when we were looking at Jesus because he was the image of God. It is not saying that because Jesus was here we all of a sudden are able to look into heaven and see God.

Once again from John 14.

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

You are just making stuff up. Has nothing to do with him being the "image of God". The father is MUCH GREATER THAN I Jesus says over and over.

God says young men will have visions and old men will have dreams. It does not say God talks to us directly.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

This was a challenge spoken out of anger by God and is not some nice little promise to let people have an enjoyable experience.

Right, because you say so? Can you back this up at all? It says nothing of that sort there. You are once again just making things up and manipulating things to fit your view. Just like a normal blind christian you deny in others what you lack. You enter not and you deny it of others.

No, because he says only Moses will have direct speech from God and can see Him, compared to others who will only have dark and unclear dreams.

Is reading that hard for you? It says he will make himself known and speak to them in dreams. As for moses, he says that moses is different and he actually seen god. It says it plain as day and you sit here and try to tell me otherwise. You sit here and try to tell me that my own experiences are false and so forth.

Paul says that anyone who does not teach that Jesus came in the flesh is the antichrist.

And Paul is a liar. And it's funny you mention Paul considering what you said above. I guess it only applies to those who disagree with you. As Paul makes claims that are WAY off course from the above. Paul speaks of seeing physical things and so forth. Which is a clear sign he is a liar. Not to mention his story changes 3 seperate times in Acts, and not 1 of them is true.

Paul is the 2nd shepherd that people accept over Jesus and who does things in the name of Jesus. He makes up nearly 50% of the "new" testament, which was formed after Jesus. How many times does Paul quote Jesus? ONE TIME.

While Paul makes up so much of the new testament, the said fact of the matter is I have quoted Jesus more times in the single thread than Paul ever did in all those books. Go figure.

Who was supposed to eat the fruit forbidden of Adam to eat? I would guess God.

So now you think God didn't know that adam and eve would take from the fruit? Make up your mind, is god all knowing and so forth or not? If he is all knowing then how could he not have known they would do this? Do you even think about these things at all?

If it's the holy spirit that gives true understanding, then why does one need the teachings of Paul? If Jesus fulfills the law, then why does one need Paul?

So it's all about what Paul says huh? Paul over Jesus, Paul over god? Why? Because Paul sold you a lie.

The Law and the Prophets. He fulfilled the prophecies, including the one I mentioned by Moses, in the Law.

Do not cut my sentences off at half sentence. If you can't address what I have said in full context, then do not even bother. Thank you.

Why would you think I was any different than you? You do not know that.

Because before Abraham was, I am. You have no clue what I know or who I am. None. ZERO.

It takes one to know one. And I know you are not one. If you were one, then you wouldn't be speaking in the way you do. If you were one, then you would have understanding and wisdom, rather than acceptance and blind faith.

You have spent your life studying the works of men. I experienced John 14 for myself. You have recieved as the world gives, in authority and acceptance. I have recieved as the father gives, in reason and understanding.

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

At that day you will know it. There will be no doubt, it is something you experience. It is the 2nd birth Jesus speaks of. No matter what you may say, you have not experienced that. Because again, if you did then you wouldn't be speaking the way you do.

You can hate me for it, you can deny it is true of me, you can say whatever you want. But you already know, and you only lie to yourself.




[edit on 25-5-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

And yet, apparently that is the same understanding men can give you? Apparently that involves the holy spirit reading the bible to you? Or are you saying the holy spirit is the bible?

Some of these things may have a special application. For example, Pentecost, we do not see events like that every day. There was a need for something like that, at the time. So the Bible, as you say, may be part of what was meant. The Bible was yet to be written, or at least the New Testament, at that point, and someone was going to have to remember what happened and understand it, to write it. So, that particular prediction sees its fulfillment when I read the New Testament.
OK, you do not like your quotes cut off. I do that so you can tell what I am directly addressing. How is this, instead of cutting, underline what I want to answer:

You can hate me for it, you can deny it is true of me, you can say whatever you want.

Seriously, I do not. I like to imagine that if I was talking to you in person you would seem different than what you might think from reading what you write. I am like that, where I try to be concise, it seems really abrupt.

So, if you do not understand this, then how can you say what you did above about the holy spirit? And if he goes to the father, then how is he supposed to be there to show you the way, unless his life example is that path?

He goes to the Father so he can direct God's power to his disciples. They could then do those works by the name of Jesus. Once Jesus is in this elevated position, he can pass it on to them, as God from that same elevated position had passed it down to him.

You are just making stuff up. Has nothing to do with him being the "image of God". The father is MUCH GREATER THAN I Jesus says over and over.

Jesus was an actual human being and was a person, meaning he was an individual with his own self awareness and consciousness and personality. Seeing that he was in this condition, he assumed the proper way of conducting himself that was appropriate for who he was. He actually had a god and was dependent on Him for all the needs that everyone has.

Once again from John 14. 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

He is speaking of God and calls Him the Father, but in a really strange way, he is actually claiming to be God. So, being God, a man does the works that only God can do. But it is not based on anything to do with a human capability. In the role of a man, his place is to submit himself to a higher authority, which he does, even if in this case it is himself. It all seems weird, but my point is that it is not something we will ever have to worry about because it will never happen to us. When Jesus is speaking in the authoritative voice of God, he is not showing himself as an example that we should emulate.
This is starting to be a big post so I will continue on another one.

reply to post by badmedia

Right, because you say so? Can you back this up at all? It says nothing of that sort there. You are once again just making things up and manipulating things to fit your view. Just like a normal blind christian you deny in others what you lack. You enter not and you deny it of others.

In the story Aaron and Miriam were thinking they were on an equal standing with Moses. God challenges them to step forward and make their claim to be a prophet. Then he puts them in their place by comparing what they receive to what Moses does.

Is reading that hard for you?(1) It says he will make himself known and speak to them in dreams.(2) As for moses, he says that moses is different and he actually seen god. It says it plain as day and you sit here and try to tell me otherwise.(3) You sit here and try to tell me that my own experiences are false and so forth.(4)

(1)Yes, actually. I see things in pieces and out of order. Kind of strange and I have to really concentrate to read things as a single unit.(2)Right, that is what the verse says.(3)That was Moses and he had experiences that no one else has had and most likely did not in the future.(4) Not sure what you mean but I guess it seems I am refuting your claims. I do not know what you see or hear but I am dealing with your interpretation of scripture. You are not my responsibility to make judgments about your personal experiences. I see my responsibility as being to the people who might come across your posts and not realize there is another way of looking at everything you write.

And Paul is a liar. And it's funny you mention Paul considering what you said above. I guess it only applies to those who disagree with you. As Paul makes claims that are WAY off course from the above. Paul speaks of seeing physical things and so forth. Which is a clear sign he is a liar. Not to mention his story changes 3 seperate times in Acts, and not 1 of them is true.

I am guessing you mean the visions of Paul. He claims to have been taken up to some high level of Heaven and seeing the risen Jesus. I am not sure what his experience was but I would imagine it would be somewhat similar to John in Revelation. So I assume your point is I am being hypocritical by accepting his story and not yours. I do not think I have ever told you that I thought you had some false vision or were not telling the truth. I have heard some way out there stories and do not doubt that these people have had them. I have myself but they were not so nice, but I appreciate being back where I belong, after being away for what seemed like a long time. Everyone needs some sort of revelation, I suppose, and I got mine. Namely to not trust in my own abilities and only God has the ability to save completely or to use King James English, "utterly". My other lesson, if that is really what it was, is that people need help to understand what is happening to them.

Paul is the 2nd shepherd that people accept over Jesus and who does things in the name of Jesus. He makes up nearly 50% of the "new" testament, which was formed after Jesus. How many times does Paul quote Jesus? ONE TIME.
While Paul makes up so much of the new testament, the said fact of the matter is I have quoted Jesus more times in the single thread than Paul ever did in all those books. Go figure.

There is a man, Jesus, and we have Gospels that talk about him. OK, I see your point, we should go ahead and accept the Book of Mormon, because they cover Jesus v.2.0 and that is what Paul does. He has reveled to him the reality of the risen Christ, who he considers superior to the man Jesus.
Paul says something interesting when he says to someone that they should not imitate this famous person I will not name, who traveled around with a group of women. Jesus did that while he sent out his apostles. Did Paul really hate the man Jesus? Not sure but it can cause you to wonder.
Paul wanted to basically toss out a lot of the ordinary things that he thought were so many encumbrances to the spiritual life which he thought was the more important thing. So, he attacks stupidity like "endless genealogies", which happen to be in the Gospels. He says Jesus was born in the ordinary manner, dismissing fables that were already popping up about it. He may have been looking at how the religion was quickly turning into a cult that was worshiping relics and creating icons.

So now you think God didn't know that adam and eve would take from the fruit? Make up your mind, is god all knowing and so forth or not? If he is all knowing then how could he not have known they would do this?(2) Do you even think about these things at all?(1)
If it's the holy spirit that gives true understanding, then why does one need the teachings of Paul?(3) If Jesus fulfills the law, then why does one need Paul?(4)
So it's all about what Paul says huh? Paul over Jesus, Paul over god?(5) Why? Because Paul sold you a lie.

(1) Yes, I have posted extensively on this very subject.(2)I think that God is all knowing. But there may be something different about seeing everything that has not yet happened, called prescience. God directs the future through his will and and his abilities to intercede in events. He is super-intelligent so He has great predictive powers. He would have known that such a thing could happen. But to make everything pre-determined would defeat the purpose of having a creation.
(3)Look around you and how many spirit filled people do you see? Not too many? How many people who claim to be Christian are doing bad things? Paul is like the new Moses of the spiritual law. Seeing how people are not doing so well with their spiritual growth, he has to create a law for becoming spiritually minded while your carnal nature fights it tooth and nail.
(4)The culmination in the foretold events of Jesus' life was the sacrifice. The cleansing agent that results from that is the blood. Peter looses sight of it and goes on about the promised Messiah. Paul redirects our attention, since we are gentiles and care not about David's seed and all that.
(5)It might seem that way. People were falling by the wayside at a high rate and he had to survive long enough to see the future and come up with the anti-dotes to what he saw coming up to destroy the church.


[edit on 25-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Some of these things may have a special application. For example, Pentecost, we do not see events like that every day. There was a need for something like that, at the time. So the Bible, as you say, may be part of what was meant. The Bible was yet to be written, or at least the New Testament, at that point, and someone was going to have to remember what happened and understand it, to write it. So, that particular prediction sees its fulfillment when I read the New Testament.

See, when you mention things like Pentecost, then you are talking about the understanding of men, not the understanding the father gives. Believe it or not, there is a difference. Those are things you have accepted, not an understanding given by the father.

The bible is not at all what taught me. I learned all that I know outside the bible. I was honestly shocked to see what I learned mentioned in the bible. I have been to every kind of christian church and grew up in the bible belt. I never once heard things presented by the church or any christian in the way I learned from the father. I learned directly from the source, in a way that does not give as this world gives.

It is impossible for this world to give you understanding directly. This world can only give you on authority. Just like we are talking here, I can not directly give you the understanding I have gained. I can only try to say things which can reveal that understanding to you. Meaning, the best I can do, and the best Jesus could do, was to express the understanding.

And so thus, those with ears are those who can see the understanding expressed. Anyone can listen and repeat the words of Jesus and others. But only those with ears are able to understand. Those who just listen can only repeat what they have accepted as authority.

Psalm 82

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Can you see that? Those who accept, are accepting the persons of the wicked. They will NOT be able to understand as a result. All the foundations of the earth are out of course because they can not give understanding. They can only tell what people to accept, or as I mentioned before, express those understandings.

This is why the father told me not to make an authority figure of myself, not to worry about the idols and so forth. Because those are things that cause people to accept rather than understand. And this world certainly doesn't need more of that. There is simply no replacement for the real thing. Not the bible, not my words, not anyone's words.

OK, you do not like your quotes cut off. I do that so you can tell what I am directly addressing. How is this, instead of cutting, underline what I want to answer:

That would be fine, what I didn't like is that when you mentioned only part of the sentence, then you avoided the rest of the point. It is extremely difficult for me to talk to christians sometimes, as if I say certain things then they will not properly understand me. For example. If I say - Jesus is truth. A christian will agree with me. But when I say that, it doesn't mean the same thing they think it does. So I have to define what I mean, and if you only take the very first part of what I say, then you are likely not really replying to my point.

Seriously, I do not. I like to imagine that if I was talking to you in person you would seem different than what you might think from reading what you write. I am like that, where I try to be concise, it seems really abrupt.

I do not debate people. I debate points and ideas. I take nothing said on the forums as personal. The truth is, if we were in person I would likely not talk to you at all about these things. My wife gets upset with me because I won't hardly talk about these things, but I do on here. But I do not like to talk about these things in person because people will not be honest in their responses because they are trying to "maintain the peace". I am someone who thinks it is disrespectful to disagree with someone, but not say anything or just go along with them. To me, it says you do not think I can handle the truth.

I just can't express how differently I see things than most people. My entire perspective and way of seeing things has been changed since my experience. My 2 eyes see the same things, but what I see in understanding is much different. I see everything false/fake in people etc. And I realize and understand why people do it, but the fact of the matter is, it's all a lie and I know and see it. Very difficult to deal with. So I generally just do not say anything at all in regards to this topic IRL. I do not case my pearls before swine, as the people would only trample what I say and so forth.

Plus, people who know me in real life would just accept what I said most of the time. That is also a big reason why I don't talk about these things very much with even my wife. She will just accept whatever I say and so forth. But when I won't tell her, then she is forced to think about it herself and then she will usually tell me what she came to understand.

Here, it's not something I have to worry about. Here I'm just another poster on the forums. Nobody is going to accept what I say, and I don't have to worry about getting rended by ignorant people who can't handle an opinion that isn't their own.

So much different IRL. If you get me to talk about these things IRL, then you are doing something. I still follow what I believe and so forth, but you would never know why I do what I do. But here, I fully expect to be hated, and that is fine with me. And if it came down to it IRL, I wouldn't step down, but I don't look for a fight either.

He goes to the Father so he can direct God's power to his disciples. They could then do those works by the name of Jesus. Once Jesus is in this elevated position, he can pass it on to them, as God from that same elevated position had passed it down to him.

Where do you get this stuff? That is not true at all. This is how I know you haven't experienced the 2nd birth. Because if you did, then you wouldn't say things like this.

It's like if you are an electrician. If someone comes along and says something completely wrong about the job, then you know right away that the person is not really an electrician. As I said before, you are only fooling yourself.

God is consciousness. He is within. Your consciousness(called soul) is a part of god. What made Jesus different is that he knew it. There is nothing Jesus says of himself that is not also true in you. The difference is - you do not understand it and do not know it. You will have to be born again before these things are apparent. And that has nothing to do with physical water. I was in the mountains when I experienced it, no where near the water.

You are god. God is within all. This is what Jesus tried to explain to people. John 14:20 says exactly this. On that day you will know this. You will then know why death is not real and much much more.

If god isn't within you, then you wouldn't be able to understand anything. You would not exist as you do now. It is the father within you that gives you consciousness. If you look out at the world, the real war going on is not between nations. It is a war on consciousness, a war on god. It's all designed to keep you from realizing and understanding this.

This is also what gives you free will. If someone sells their soul, they are selling their free will and will be in service to another. This world is designed to turn you into a robot, to kill your consciousness and free will and turn you into a servant.

Wars and such are just manipulations designed to get you to walk a path of death and destruction. To make you want to save your own life, so that you will lose it. That is the game of this world, mass manipulation. And the only way you can not be manipulated is by understanding who and what you truly are, and having that understanding. Holding on to idols and the literal isn't going to help you. And they know it.

In the bible, it even says people will say Jesus is truth and so forth at the end. Because those who manipulate understand the above. They don't care what you believe, just so long as you do not understand. You can belong to any religion, no religion or whatever and it's fine and dandy. But those who speak about the understanding are always dealt with. They blind people by getting them to focus on the idol, rather than the understanding.

So yes, Jesus is god. But so am I. So are you. Thus while we are each sons and daugters of god, the father is much greater than all of us. Because the father consists of not only me, not only you, but all souls - past, present and future. This is why all that Jesus does, others can also do. If the father was doing the works for Jesus, and you did even greater things, then who do you think would be doing them?

Continuing on from the psalm 82 quote, the next verses after those who do not understand:

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Your consciousness is born of the spirit, thus you are a child of god. But your flesh is of this world and it will die, just as it did with Jesus.

Jesus was an actual human being and was a person, meaning he was an individual with his own self awareness and consciousness and personality. Seeing that he was in this condition, he assumed the proper way of conducting himself that was appropriate for who he was. He actually had a god and was dependent on Him for all the needs that everyone has.

And the same is true of you. That is the point. When you actually come to understand, then you will see before you the same exact things Jesus dealt with. They are ALL still here. Pharisees, moneychangers and so forth. It is all still here. And they have taken up the name of Jesus as part of it. This is what they do. They may not call themselves Pharisees and moneychangers. But the functions themselves still exist. Thus why you must look at their fruits to see the truth. Look at their actions and functions in order to see, not what they call themselves. A rose by any other name still smells the same.

Like take a look at the dollars. The majority of the people who appear on our money were actually against a central bank. Take Andrew Jackson for example. Called them a den of vipers(as did Jesus). But he is on the money created by the same people he called vipers.

Wolves with sheeps clothing. All that is.

He is speaking of God and calls Him the Father, but in a really strange way, he is actually claiming to be God. So, being God, a man does the works that only God can do. But it is not based on anything to do with a human capability. In the role of a man, his place is to submit himself to a higher authority, which he does, even if in this case it is himself. It all seems weird, but my point is that it is not something we will ever have to worry about because it will never happen to us. When Jesus is speaking in the authoritative voice of God, he is not showing himself as an example that we should emulate.
This is starting to be a big post so I will continue on another one.

No, you do not understand the father/son relationship. The father is all knowing, knows all things. There is no time or change for the father, because there is nothing new to happen. All is already known. For the father, the universe is static and does not move.

The son is the father, except where as the father knows all, the son does not. This is a requirement in order to experience this reality. If you knew all as the father does, then you couldn't have this experience.

When I had my experience and went to the bottom of the rabbit hole, there were only 2 beings in existence. Me and the father. That was as far as I could go. If I were to go into the father perspective I could not return to this existence. Because the limited knowledge required for this understanding would be gone. I could not go past that point.

It is like a movie film. If you take the movie film and you stretch it out and view it all at once, that is the perspective of the father. In this perspective there is no time, not change and all is known at once of that movie. In order to get time and change in that movie, one must take it and view it frame by frame. This change of frame by frame is what gives the illusion of time. Only in this limited perspective of the movie can you see this. To view the movie frame by frame is the perspective of the son. To see the entire movie is the perspective of the father.

However, as the father knows all, he also knows all possibilities. This means that it is not just a single film the father sees, but every possibility stacked next to each other. This is also a requirement for free will. If all possibilities did not exist, then free will would not exist. Because the choices would be limited, which is a limit on free will.

Now, while in the son perspective, as you are now you make a path across all these films/dimensions/possibilities. It would appear as though the universe is linear. Because we make a linear path across all these possibilities. You reap what you sow. This means it is your choices(free will) which guide you along this path.

Right now there are 2 possible futures for you that we will look at for an example. In 1 future, you can raise your arm. In another future you do not. Which of these becomes a reality is your choice. Each is a possible future, but which one becomes the reality is your choice.

Another example not so obvious and direct. If you go out tommorow and rob a bank, then you will likely end up in a future that involved you being in jail. So you reap what you sow. If all these possibilities did not exist, then free will does not exist, and you couldn't reap what you sowed. You would be locked into whatever was already decided. Not the case.

So, when you look out into the world, you must be the change you want to see. And if you think about how the world must act in order to be a peaceful and heavenly society, then you will find understanding in what Jesus says. If you steal, then you can not expect to live in a society that does not have theft.

So when Jesus says he is "the way", this is what he is talking about. There is an actual path you make across this. As you can imagine, it does not do any good at all to give Jesus lip service, but then not do as he says. Because your actual path will not be the correct one.

This is how the father taught me. He did not say - go follow Jesus, or anything like that. This is why the idol is not the important thing, but the understanding they give is. Because if you just worship Jesus but don't do what he says, then you aren't going to walk that path. Your actions matter. And so when you see wars and such, they are using fear to try and get you to save yourself. Why? So that you will not walk the path above, and will instead walk a path of death and destruction.

What does Jesus say, they give lip service, but there heart is far? Why is their heart far? Because they did not walk the path. Look at Matthew 7. Many on that day will say look at the good works we have done in your name, look at the demons killed and so forth. And Jesus says he will tell them - I know you not, as they have worked in sin. Meaning, while they have done things in his name, they did it while walking the path of death and destruction, and did not walk the path or follow the way.

Anyone can walk the path, and the holy spirit/god speaks in understanding(tongues). This means that anyone who seeks the father/god can find him. I myself am proof of this. Do you think the understanding I have just given you in this post has come from men? Do you think this understanding came from a church, or from the bible? No. It came from the father, because I seeked him early.

The father will give to you in a way that you understand. Once you have that understanding, then you will be able to see others expressing that understanding. So when I read Jesus, it do not see Jesus. I see the father I know speaking through him. I recognize the understanding of the father, and thus I know Jesus is speaking the truth.

Once you understand how to add, then you will be able to see many true expressions of that understanding. The person who repeats 1+4=5 but doesn't understand how to add is just as ignorant as the person who didn't know to repeat 1+4=5. Only by gaining understanding and wisdom for yourself have you gotten the point.

Someone asked me how can I say Paul is a liar and how would I know that. The answer is simple as math. I'm sure you know how to add and understand it. So tell me, which of the follow statements is true.

1+4=5
3+5=9
5+2=10
8+1=9

How were you able to determine which of these were true, and which were false? Because you are not having to accept, you actually understand. And it doesn't matter who comes along and says otherwise, because you understand you will not be fooled by someone coming along and saying 4+4=6. And that is exactly how I know when dealing with others if they have seen the truth or not. Because if they have understanding, then they will make true expressions of that understanding. Just as Jesus did.

I hope after all this, no one ever accuses me again of thinking too much.
This is evidence of a lot of thought.
Thanks for the reply and I will have to let my mind go blank for a while to kind of absorb it.



[edit on 26-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
In the story Aaron and Miriam were thinking they were on an equal standing with Moses. God challenges them to step forward and make their claim to be a prophet. Then he puts them in their place by comparing what they receive to what Moses does.

He still says how he will speak to them. As well - wouldn't god have to be speaking to them in order for god to challenge them? Btw, the only reason I even know of that verse is because someone was kind enough to point it out to me after I told them of my experience. I had no idea these things were spoken of at all. I just knew what I experienced myself.

And that is what I experienced. A full on vision with the father. My consciousness was literally pulled to somewhere else. I thought I was going crazy at first. It wasn't until I just gained so much understanding that I couldn't deny it that I really accepted it. And then seeing the bible say it after was something that truly blew my mind. If you would like, I can tell you of my experience itself, I do not mind at all. John 14:20 was the first thing I knew, and that was followed by a period of time where I gained much much understanding about things.

(1)Yes, actually. I see things in pieces and out of order. Kind of strange and I have to really concentrate to read things as a single unit.(2)Right, that is what the verse says.(3)That was Moses and he had experiences that no one else has had and most likely did not in the future.(4) Not sure what you mean but I guess it seems I am refuting your claims. I do not know what you see or hear but I am dealing with your interpretation of scripture. You are not my responsibility to make judgments about your personal experiences. I see my responsibility as being to the people who might come across your posts and not realize there is another way of looking at everything you write.

But you contridicted everything that was said. I don't know what moses saw. I did not see anything in the physical. I only had a vision within the minds eye. And that was followed by understanding. Immediately after my vision the first words out of my mouth were - I am god, and I am arguing with myself(you and others).

I will tell anyone if they accept what I say, then they are fools. I do not want people to just accept what I say as truth. I would shut up and not say another word before I allowed that to happen. Such is the problem and what men do now. I'm not interesting in being anyone's leader, there is only 1 leader, 1 teacher and that is the father.

I am guessing you mean the visions of Paul. He claims to have been taken up to some high level of Heaven and seeing the risen Jesus. I am not sure what his experience was but I would imagine it would be somewhat similar to John in Revelation. So I assume your point is I am being hypocritical by accepting his story and not yours. I do not think I have ever told you that I thought you had some false vision or were not telling the truth. I have heard some way out there stories and do not doubt that these people have had them. I have myself but they were not so nice, but I appreciate being back where I belong, after being away for what seemed like a long time.

No, Paul speaks of others hearing something but not seeing and so forth. He is speaking about a very physical thing. Otherwise, the men with him would not have had the first clue one way or another. This story in itself he changes multiple times. I know he is a liar because he is an example of everything the father told me not to do, but this was icing on the cake.

It boggles my mind why people think they need Paul in order to understand Jesus. As if Jesus and the father were unable to do the job. Paul says many nice things about Jesus etc, but GWB said nice things about freedom and liberty too. This is exactly how sheeps in wolves clothing work. They inflitrate and then manipulate. And that is what Paul does.

In Pauls defense however, all we really know is what has been attributed to him. Those letters could have occured while he was trying to gain understanding, or he could have just wanted to be that really bad. I would be absolutely horrified if my writings on here were taking and put into some bible like Paul's writings. But based on the writings that we do know of Paul, he is a fraud.

Everyone needs some sort of revelation, I suppose, and I got mine. Namely to not trust in my own abilities and only God has the ability to save completely or to use King James English, "utterly". My other lesson, if that is really what it was, is that people need help to understand what is happening to them.

Sure, everyone needs to have their own vision. And such is the point. But why god would tell you not to trust in your abilities is beyond me. As it is the father that gives you those abilities to begin with. However, I must ask - if you are not to trust your abilities etc, then where do you get the idea that you should speak about it? If you yourself lack the ability to understand, then all you are doing is repeating the words of men.

All I can say is that my relationship with the father is completely different. When I tried to give my will to the father, it was not taken at all. Instead, I was just given more and more understanding so that my will could be inline with his. So it seems a bit odd to me that the father would say such to you. Especially considering it says those who find him early will have their treasures filled(with wisdom and knowledge), but yet you claim this was denied of you? Doesn't make sense. Why would the father deny these things of you?

There is a man, Jesus, and we have Gospels that talk about him. OK, I see your point, we should go ahead and accept the Book of Mormon, because they cover Jesus v.2.0 and that is what Paul does. He has reveled to him the reality of the risen Christ, who he considers superior to the man Jesus.

Paul says something interesting when he says to someone that they should not imitate this famous person I will not name, who traveled around with a group of women. Jesus did that while he sent out his apostles. Did Paul really hate the man Jesus? Not sure but it can cause you to wonder.

Paul wanted to basically toss out a lot of the ordinary things that he thought were so many encumbrances to the spiritual life which he thought was the more important thing. So, he attacks stupidity like "endless genealogies", which happen to be in the Gospels. He says Jesus was born in the ordinary manner, dismissing fables that were already popping up about it. He may have been looking at how the religion was quickly turning into a cult that was worshiping relics and creating icons.

But Paul creates relics and icons. He does exactly what I was shown not to do. While Jesus is an example of what I learned to do, an example of the path I learned and so forth, Paul is an example of what I was shown not to be/do. Paul is constantly praising Jesus and the father, but then tells people to do things which are not true.

For example. Take the death of Jesus. Paul has manipulated this in Romans as meaning that all powers are of god, and that we should all be subject to the authorities on earth. But Jesus did not go along with the authorities on earth. He went directly against them. That is why the authorities had him killed and why they conspired against him.

Jesus simply did not try to save himself. Because that is not the way. He would have had to kill, which was made apparent when Peter cuts the mans ear off. You can not expect to live in a society without killing if you yourself kill. So he took his death as the ultimate example and end to what he taught. That in itself was huge. And he suffers through that simply to show people that this way is better than to take up the sword and try to save oneself.

But he doesn't subject himself to the authorities. If he did, he wouldn't have been murdered. So when Paul says these things, it's a complete manipulation. Paul gives great lip service to Jesus, but his heart is far.

If the way of Paul was the correct way, then Jesus would have also done that. Paul appeals to politicians and men. He is among those who accept authority as truth, rather than truth as authority.




[edit on 26-5-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
(1) Yes, I have posted extensively on this very subject.(2)I think that God is all knowing. But there may be something different about seeing everything that has not yet happened, called prescience. God directs the future through his will and and his abilities to intercede in events. He is super-intelligent so He has great predictive powers. He would have known that such a thing could happen. But to make everything pre-determined would defeat the purpose of having a creation.

Nah, he knows all. He knew they would take from the fruit. If you love something, you will set it free. If it loves you, then it will come back.

Part of free will is the ability to give it away. If you could not give away your free will, then it wouldn't be free will. When adam and eve took from the apple, they gave away part of their free will. But only on a subconscious level, not on a direct level. That was the manipulation of it with the serpent. Let me give an example.

Take a game of poker. When you enter into that game, you are subconsciously giving away your free will. Why? For the experience itself. When you go to play the game of poker, you are not really looking at it as a "I'm giving away my free will". You are just thinking - I want to play the game.

But when you play that game, then you become subject to the rules of the game, and you are agreeing to abide them. Nothing physically stops you from looking at all the cards. But if everyone could see all the cards in the deck, then the experience and game could not exist. Everyone would know the outcome of the game, so they wouldn't bet, bluff or any of that. So in order to gain that experience you must agree to give away your free will.

So, when the tree of knowledge is taken from, then you are subconsciously giving away your free will, and you have subjected yourself to the evil/laws/satan's kingdom. And that was the lie and manipulation of the serpent.

In order to be subjected to the evil and gain knowledge of both, you have been made ignorant upon birth. With no memory of anything before that. Something that was subconsciously agreed to when eating that apple. As it is a requirement for gaining knowledge of good and evil.

Things are not really "pre-determined". Thus why no time is ever given and why nobody, not even Jesus, knew the "time". However, what is known is the pattern and things that will happen along that path. And so as you start walking the path, then the things you will encounter along that path is known. That is predictable completely, and that is what is predicted in prophecy.

So when you have people wanting control over others, then you can pretty much predict what their actions will be. And when people start to wake up or threaten that, then you can predict what the response will be and so forth. But can't say exactly when those things will happen.

(3)Look around you and how many spirit filled people do you see? Not too many? How many people who claim to be Christian are doing bad things? Paul is like the new Moses of the spiritual law. Seeing how people are not doing so well with their spiritual growth, he has to create a law for becoming spiritually minded while your carnal nature fights it tooth and nail.

I can't remember the story exactly. But you know where the guy goes to the city and tries to find someone true etc, but can't? That is how I feel.

Jesus speaks in parables as a way of giving understanding. Paul however does not give that understanding. Paul does exactly what the pharisees did with Moses. He creates authorities and tells people what to accept. It's like Jesus comes along and shows people how to add, but then Paul tells people what to believe. Paul tells peopel 1+1=2 and anything that is not 1+1=2 is false. Where as when you know how to add, then you know 1+1=2, and you know many other expressions as well.

Each of us should be a unique expression of that same understanding.

Jesus is a variable. The time he lived is a variable. The place he lived, and his culture are variables. But these variables make an expression. Understanding that expression was the point. That is why Jesus expressed it. When others do as he says and gain that understand, then each of them will also be an expression. So if you know algebra, Jesus gives in terms of A+B=C, where A and B can be many different numbers. Where as Paul lacks that understanding and instead tells people 1+1=2. Which is in itself a lie, not because 1+1=2 is wrong, but because thinking 1+1=2 is the only expression is wrong.

The world can only give in terms of 1+1=2. Even when I say A+B=C, I am still giving you the same as the world gives. A+B=C is still just an expression. But as you understand basic algerbra(I'm assuming), then you can see the understanding behind what I am expressing. That understanding is how the father gives, rather than in terms of 1+1=2. Thus, the father has only ever spoken to me in my vision once and asked me the 1 question. The rest of the time I have only gained the understanding.

(4)The culmination in the foretold events of Jesus' life was the sacrifice. The cleansing agent that results from that is the blood. Peter looses sight of it and goes on about the promised Messiah. Paul redirects our attention, since we are gentiles and care not about David's seed and all that.

Sacrifice is a satanic view. A sacrifice of the truth, so that the lie of this world may live. And the lie surely does live, who can deny that? Thus why it is not until the return of truth, the return of Jesus that the lie will end.

Jesus did what he did as an example, and part of that required doing what he did. To show the way. Changing the focus from him showing the way, to it being a sacrifice is a lie. It is to say that you only need to pay lip service to Jesus, rather than walking the path. Jesus tells the rich man to walk the path, the church and Paul says it's a free gift and one need only believe in Jesus the idol. Such is manipulation.

And it doesn't even make sense the way the church presents it. Why does god need to take the form of man, then be killed/sacrificed and then anyone who believes in the story is saved? Isn't that to say god couldn't just forgive them on their own? Why would we even need to be here to begin with if it was just a matter as this? 2000 years later and it's all still going on. Why? And if someone doesn't believe the story, they are screwed?

These manipulations make god out to be evil, ignorant and worse than people like Saddam. I refuse to believe that I have more wisdom and love for others than god does. Such is nonsense. Sure, they may not say these things in their words exactly, but this is what they imply. If such characteristics were given to a human, that person would be frowned upon.

These manipulations serve to make people hate god. And that is what they do. Look around, the actions of Christians and what is said makes people dislike god and turns them away from it all.

But what does make sense is that he is an example to follow. Then their is a valid purpose. Then there is a reason. Then there is wisdom. This I can understand.

From John 14 again.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The very works sake? Doesn't matter if you believe Jesus is god he says, believe me for the very works sake. What work? His life and example. If this is the minimum one can do, then it is something all should do.

He says if you believe then you will do as he says etc.

(5)It might seem that way. People were falling by the wayside at a high rate and he had to survive long enough to see the future and come up with the anti-dotes to what he saw coming up to destroy the church.

The church is within. It is present in both heaven and earth. It is built out of the only thing that is seen as riches in the eyes of the father - wisdom and understanding. No man can touch it.

In the time of Jesus, a physical place of worship was a synagogue. This is just another example of those who carry out the lie turning spiritual things into physical to make people look in the wrong places and not understand. They enter not, and deny it of others.

He gives Peter the keys to heaven. And where is heaven and god? within. Thus the doors to heaven and such are found within a person. Again, back to the 2nd birth etc.

Jesus mentions the rock in Matthew 7 as well.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Notice again it talks about doing what he says and being wise? Notice it is like building a house upon a rock? Notice he likens it with peter to being built upon a rock?

If you take a hard look at things, you'll find that it is never the words of Jesus used in arguments against me. Always the word of Paul or the church. Why is that?

Isn't it kind of odd that the Romans rejected Jesus and such until Paul and the things like the book of Romans? Notice Paul writes a book that appeals to their authority, even the book is named after them. Paul delivers it all to the powers/authority of the world(satan's kingdom) as prophesied.

And why is it Jesus says men will be hated by the nations and killed? But what Paul gives and teaches is instead embraced by the nations and has been for over 1000 years. But those who didn't go along were killed, tortured and hated?

It just doesn't add up.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by badmedia]

Peace, Peace and more Peace

I apologise that this thread resulted in such a debate.

All points are relevant and all contributors have debated their opinons and their interpretations extremely well, with wonderful research and quotes. For me, the greatest quote comes from the heart, from the personal experience of feeling the presence of God, feeling Gods love for me and my love for God and the knowing that the voice of God can be heard everywhere if one truely listens.

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus died a Jew, not a Christian, that title came later. I love Jesus, I believe Jesus asks me to be Christ-Like, not Christian.

May God bless everyone who contributed, and may the wings of angels cool you when you feel hot, and warm you when you feel cold with the loving warmth that comes from God. May the Creator of our entire Universe be blessed by us, by our love. Our love for the Creator that has many names. I call Him God Divine Father/Mother. I believe I am created in the image of God, Female, and others are created in the image of God, Male, for God created Us in His likeness; male and female.


[edit on 26-5-2009 by flashesofblue]

reply to post by flashesofblue


Confrontation brings about understanding. Debate is good and very healthy, no need to apologize. Quite the opposite IMO.

Pretty hard to learn new things from like minded people. If everyone shares the same opinion, then ones opinions are never questioned.

If I couldn't get a debate, then I would probably post elsewhere.

reply to post by badmedia

Pretty hard to learn new things from like minded people.

Right.
As for getting hot, flashofblue must be talking about the readers but I hear nothing from them.
I am glad for the "debate" am still in shock from it.
Not because it bothers me, at least you know in a negative way.
Now I understand what you mean. Having people worshiping you defeats the purpose.



[edit on 27-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by badmedia

If you take a hard look at things, you'll find that it is never the words of Jesus used in arguments against me. Always the word of Paul or the church. Why is that?

Jesus seems to be a really lonely and sad person. He appears out of total obscurity. Notice that when they say, "we know you and your brother..." they never mention "and your friends". He called his disciples friends but they were hanging out to get good positions in the kingdom they expected him to set up. When he really needed someone to stand up with him they ran away.
"The disciple who loved him", apparently the writer of John knew no one else did.
He was constantly depressed because of the wretched state of mankind. He went off into the desert by himself. Once he thought he had taught his disciples a lesson he would send them off to tell it to others and was left alone.
He was presented to the crowd as someone with no appeal at all, before he was crucified. He died a horrible death and was not even recognized as himself when he was risen.
How could such a person build a lasting fan base? What he needed was someone to be president of the Jesus fan club and hold meetings and put up a Face-book page. Somebody really smart and charismatic who had special knowledge of Jesus and had the most recent interview with him.
Well while they were at it, make Jesus God and give our fan club mass appeal to the Capital City dwellers.(who love making men into gods)
Get serious, dude this is about ratings and all your inner revelations are not adding to the face-book hits. Like make a really cool story about your experience and lets hype it up. Our Friends list will go way up.
How dare you criticize our great leader, Paul.

(note to the casual reader: just in case you do not realize it, this is satire, and not meant to make fun of Badmedia who I have to respect)


[edit on 27-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


you are absolutey correct! Debating seems to be enlightening in many respects and since we have an obvious respect for each others opinions I would like to make a comment

How dare you criticize our great leader, Paul.

No worries mate, personally I find Pauls work chauvanistic and as a female Paul does nothing for my faith. I enjoy the work of Luke, as I know he was a learned man, and I enjoy Marks and Johns writtings. I find that If I stick to the most direct accounts of Jesus by the disciples themselves who walked, talked and ate with my beloved Jesus Christ then I am on the right track. Jesus had a lot of love for women, and never once said that they should not teach or preach or that they should remain silent and if they have a question to ask their husbands who were head of them, like come on, a man is not my superior, and interesting that it is often men who like Pauls work as Paul likes the male superiority trip.

For me I follow Jesus Christ, who prayed to God the Father, and who said that the Father and Himself were one, just as He and I are one....Ta Da...no mere male mortal interfering with my intergalatic mind trip with my hero...Jesus Christ, who taught me to pray.












[edit on 27-5-2009 by flashesofblue]

reply to post by flashesofblue

I find Pauls work chauvanistic

You are probably one of those women who dare to show up at church with out their heads covered, showing their submission.
just kidding.
I remember when it came up in Sabbath school and all the women would not show the slightest response to it.
Also bad media brought up a good point about submitting to the government. If I was to believe that stuff was inserted into the Bible for nefarious reasons, it would be in those things.

reply to post by jmdewey60


lol ...it's all good, well some things are not good but hey...






[edit on 27-5-2009 by flashesofblue]