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Debunking false claims about Jehovah's Witnesses. 1-14

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posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I have an explanation for you

denial disorder -
the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.




posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Hes right about angels not being demons. Why would God create something evil like that? Don't know, but God has used evil spirits before.


Samuel 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.


Angels, and demons are different things.


Where Did Evil Spirits Come From?

An evil spirit (or demon) is not the same as a fallen angel; it is actually the offspring of a fallen angel. When fallen angels took to themselves human wives (Genesis 6:1-2), the children born to them became mighty giants, corrupting the human race and accelerating wickedness to such a degree that God saw it necessary to destroy all flesh with a Great Flood, saving only the righteous man Noah and his family.

When the mortal bodies of these angel-human hybrids died, their immortal spirits roamed the earth seeking human bodies to harass and indwell. The male ones are malevolent spirits and the female ones are seductive spirits. These continue to afflict the human race even now. They know the weaknesses and desires of mankind, for they once experienced a human body.

Unlike fallen angels, who can appear in bodily form, evil spirits must inhabit a body (either human or animal). An example of this is when Jesus cast out the legion of demons from a man and sent them into a herd of pigs (Luke 8:27-35). Both fallen angels and evil spirits serve their master Satan in the kingdom of darkness.


[edit on 22-6-2009 by dthwraith]



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 



Sorry but when the plain sense makes sense - seek no other sense. You are simply pounding square pegs into round hole to prop up a bad interpretation based on improper exegesis.


right... and that is exactly what all trinitarians do with PLAIN and COMMON SENSE words and phrases such as:

father
son
greater than
first born
beginning of ......

and countless of versus such as this one:

John 20:17 (New International Version)

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

Your explanation that Jesus' reason for quoting that Psalm was to confuse them, makes no sense!

Are you saying that Judges were not considered "gods" in the biblical Hebrew culture?

Was Moses called a "god"?

[edit on 22-6-2009 by holywar]



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by holywar
 


I already explained that Jesus was using his superior grasp to tangle up the Pharisee's just as he did when he asked about David. They were about to stone him. That's obvious...

Psalm 82 is about a Divine council of Angels that is referenced in Deuteronomy 32:8 in the ESV version. The ESV reflects this correction due to recent ancient language scholarship that cleared up the long held error "sons of Israel" and correctly renders it "sons of God" is angels.


"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God." (Dt 32:8)


It's not about pride or who wins an argument. Instead of just arguing just do a little research please.

It is explained in detail here : www.thedivinecouncil.com...

If you care about scripture this is the correct rendering according to the best semetic language scholars.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566


come again?

which bible are you using?

angels that sin are demons, why would god make something evil like demons?



You really don't know enough about the subject to even discuss this. Its a basic concept in systematic theology. Angels are not demons. I'm not going to argue with you because this is a waste of time. Please do some study.

[edit on 6/22/2009 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
His words "this day" would be pointless and unnecessary if he didn't mean to indicate when he would be with him. The plain meaning is that he would be with him in paradise that very day. Your objection from punctuation is really weak.


lol, so your saying jesus lied.


I think the thief was in Paradise with Jesus that very day, just like Jesus said. I am willing to bet your difficulty in "getting it" is you do not know what "paradise" means in the Bible.

Abraham's bosom in Hades which is where Jesus went. Before Christ was born, died and rose from the dead, those who trusted in God went to a place called Abraham's bosom. When Christ died the paradigm shifted, he went there, and took the believers to "paradise" in heaven. They will remain there until Christ returns to earth, and they with him.



Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"




And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:22




"And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—" (2 Co 12:3)




"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’" (Re 2:7)




"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Co 5:8)




[edit on 6/22/2009 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


No you need to go study up, actually read the bible maybe?

You think God actually created evil Demons as they are today?

He created all spirit creatures good and as angels. They had free will just like us, some converted to demons when they rebelled against God.
This is such a simple concept.

Read your bible and learn about it.

Then come back, and we can talk then.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


Angels can manifest bodies as in the case of the two in Sodom and Gomorrah. Demons can not manifest bodies which is why they begged Jesus to let them go into a heard of pigs. Fallen Angels are much more dangerous and powerful than simple demons. They rule the planet, for now...

It's not what's important here.

I am pretty certain a Fallen Angel is the source of inspiration for the Watchtower cult. The replacement theology and Arianism is obviously Satanic. It is not personal. But you are not in Christ. I don't hate you - I hate false teaching that is leading people to eternal Hell. You are in deep deception. I will pray for you to get saved and come out of the cult.




posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


Angels can manifest bodies as in the case of the two in Sodom and Gomorrah. Demons can not manifest bodies which is why they begged Jesus to let them go into a heard of pigs. Fallen Angels are much more dangerous and powerful than simple demons. They rule the planet, for now.



I put in italics what I agree with, however fallen angels=demons.
Curious, tell me what's the difference between a fallen angel and demon in how they got to be in opposition to God? Angel rank, Time frame, actions, what is it?


[edit on 22-6-2009 by Blue_Jay33]



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


By what you put in italics you see there is a marked difference between simple demons and angels. That much is clear. Fallen Angels would not bother possessing pigs. The rest is a bit more tenuous but the understanding that the ancient Israelite had was that the demons are the spirits of the Nephilim that were wiped out in the flood. According to ancient Jewish sources, because the Nephilim were angel/human hybrids and not an ordained creature of God their spirits are cursed to roam the earth.

This is not doctrine as it comes from pseudepigrapha sources but it is a pretty satisfactory explanation as "demons" are always trying to posses bodies and angels can manifest them at will and do so in numerous instances in the Bible.

I seriously don't mean anything personal, and I realize you sincerely believe your faith. I truly hope you will take a hard look at more accurate translations of the scripture and compare them.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


So you think the Nephilam are demons and their parents are the fallen angels, interesting.

As for using other bibles, I have six in my personal library, and I often quote from bible sites like these.
biblos.com...

I don't want to get into it with you because nothing I can say will change your mind, and nothing you can say or show me with all these video's is going to sway me from the truth of reality.

Cut all the garbage and distractions away and think about this singular point.
Think about who has taken Jesus words from Matthew 28 verses 19, 20 the most seriously of any branch of Christianity? Top 5 religions, name them.

And of that group who is participating in the fulfillment of Matthew 24 verse 14 at the highest level in almost every country of the world in multiple languages and cultures?

Something to mediate on.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by dthwraith
reply to post by miriam0566
 


Hes right about angels not being demons. Why would God create something evil like that? Don't know, but God has used evil spirits before.


Samuel 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.


Angels, and demons are different things.


Where Did Evil Spirits Come From?

An evil spirit (or demon) is not the same as a fallen angel; it is actually the offspring of a fallen angel. When fallen angels took to themselves human wives (Genesis 6:1-2), the children born to them became mighty giants, corrupting the human race and accelerating wickedness to such a degree that God saw it necessary to destroy all flesh with a Great Flood, saving only the righteous man Noah and his family.

When the mortal bodies of these angel-human hybrids died, their immortal spirits roamed the earth seeking human bodies to harass and indwell. The male ones are malevolent spirits and the female ones are seductive spirits. These continue to afflict the human race even now. They know the weaknesses and desires of mankind, for they once experienced a human body.

Unlike fallen angels, who can appear in bodily form, evil spirits must inhabit a body (either human or animal). An example of this is when Jesus cast out the legion of demons from a man and sent them into a herd of pigs (Luke 8:27-35). Both fallen angels and evil spirits serve their master Satan in the kingdom of darkness.


[edit on 22-6-2009 by dthwraith]


I guess no one has seen this.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 10:27 PM
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And yes I copied and pasted it, I'm to lazy to type it out.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 11:03 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 




And of that group who is participating in the fulfillment of Matthew 24 verse 14 at the highest level in almost every country of the world in multiple languages and cultures?

Something to mediate on.


Well it can not be watch tower because he says


"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Mt 24:14)


Sorry but the watchtower cult has a completely different gospel from the one he referred to, so they are completely excluded.

Evangelism of The Jehovah's Witness






"On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" (Mt 7:22-23)


Something to meditate on.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


Mt 7:22-23 cuts back your way too, as does Romans 10 verse 2.

Well this is a pointless exercise in futility for both of us.

As you say it's nothing personnel, but be warned when the Great Tribulation strikes you'll see what happens, mark my words and mark them well, the religions that God disapproves of will be be wiped out first.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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I did a google search using "Jesus created begotten" because it seems I need to do some study on the topic. I came up with a blog purporting to refute the Jehovah's Witness' version of the relationship between Father God and Son God, or in JW terminology, Jehovah and Jesus. Interestingly, the trinitarian believer immediately goes into a philosophical discourse.
He uses John 10:30 "I and my Father are one." to show that God is a monad. Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." is thrown in there to support this.
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." This one verse seems sufficient to establish that The Son and The Father coexisted befor the world was created.
Back to the monad, it really does not mean anything more special than just saying "one". There was the monad, the dyad, and the triad, meaning one, two, and three. It seems like the blogger wants to say that, way back, before there was a creation, there were two persons who were a monad. I have this mental picture of this clear bubble just floating around in this dark void with a fuzzy view of two people inside. Pagan philosophy to prove God? I don't know. Sounds a little funny to me.


[edit on 23-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by dthwraith
Hes right about angels not being demons. Why would God create something evil like that? Don't know, but God has used evil spirits before.


unfortunately, there arent any scriptures to say that demons were created specifically as demons.

in fact the opposite logic can be applied being as god's creation was "good". if god intended man to live forever on earth in happiness, why would he create something as evil and perverted like demons?

there is also nothing to suggest that the nephilum were spirit creatures that could survive the flood.

it sound like alot of supposition to me especially since the bible doesnt differentiate between the 2.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
It's not about pride or who wins an argument. Instead of just arguing just do a little research please.

It is explained in detail here : www.thedivinecouncil.com...

If you care about scripture this is the correct rendering according to the best semetic language scholars.


if its not about pride, then please tell me where it says the angels received the law? you havent addressed this yet.

and you statement that Elohiym never applies to humans is incorrect.

exodus 7:[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

elohiym is by no means a limited title. it can simply mean "mighty one" in some contexts.

so its not at all impossible for ps 82 to be referring to people as you suggest.

i also looked up you site, i found a lack of scriptural prove for alot of the things they assert



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 02:45 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
You really don't know enough about the subject to even discuss this. Its a basic concept in systematic theology. Angels are not demons. I'm not going to argue with you because this is a waste of time. Please do some study.


im sorry, i didnt realize that the bible wasnt enough



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I think the thief was in Paradise with Jesus that very day, just like Jesus said. I am willing to bet your difficulty in "getting it" is you do not know what "paradise" means in the Bible.

Abraham's bosom in Hades which is where Jesus went. Before Christ was born, died and rose from the dead, those who trusted in God went to a place called Abraham's bosom. When Christ died the paradigm shifted, he went there, and took the believers to "paradise" in heaven. They will remain there until Christ returns to earth, and they with him.


are you seriously taking a parable as literal?

"abraham's bosom" was a metaphor for the dead (eccl 9:5,10) to await judgement.

even if "the paradigm shifted" and now it was heaven, this is not happen when jesus died. i showed you scriptural proof that the resurrection happens in the "last day"

why are you so intent on defending a comma that wreaks havoc on scriptural continutity?



Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"


this has nothing to do with the resurrection, but rather gifts jeus gave to the congregation on earth

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:



And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:22


again, a parable

parable - a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
m-w.com



"And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—" (2 Co 12:3)


a vision paul had, again not necessarily literal



"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’" (Re 2:7)


ok finally you post a scripture that uses paradise in the correct context, however the scripture makes no reference to "when"



"Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Co 5:8)


no reference to time or paradise.

john 6:[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

in the future

acts 24: [15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

in the future

2 tim 2:[17] And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

rev 20:[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

in the future

1 cor 15: [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.




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