Drug war guns came from Houston

reply to post by ModernAcademia

Why do you think the DHS says that if you are concerned about illegal immigrantion you are a potential terroist?

How can you speak of defending your borders when you aren't even defending your god-given rights?

I think the DHS says that because Liberals love illegal immigrants. It is just one more group of people they can throw money at in the hopes that the legal ones will vote for them.

I agree I am not defending my rights. In order to do that we either have to form a party of people that actually have sense and elect them or we have to overthrow the whole system. I am not in the mood to start a war today.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I would have to agree with Modern on certain points as I am living in TX. The Mexican immagrants do come here for cheap labor, save up enough money, then go back to Mexico to "live as Kings". At least that what most I talk to claim is thier plan.

Arguement #1 (Cheap Labor)
Whoah be to a person that would be willing to choose to buy a house in which there are 2 identical houses right beside each other. The only difference between the 2 houses is 1 cost $30k less than the other. Which one would you buy?

I would go for the cheaper house and save $30k. I am all for someone who can offer that same quality of service for a cheaper price. I would rather hire a crew for $300 a day rather than another crew that charges $300 an hour. If they want to offer services for cheaper and still have good quality, let them. While they are in America they still have to buy food and certain living expenses. Guess what! Those items are taxed! No they may not pay income tax but they still pay tax on everything else while they are here.

Bottom of the line. IMHO and again this is emphasis on OPINION, I believe that we here in America have a problem called "excess." We live and buy beyond our means. Whether it be through debt or having a TV in every room in the house. Do we need a TV in every room in the house? NO, but we do have the choice. (Just an example)

Here is another example related but not dealing with Mexico immagrants.

You go to the store and you are looking for a new t-shirt. You find 2 t-shirts of same quality but made by diffrerent companies. 1 claims fair trade the other does not. The fair trade is selling for $25 while the other is selling for $10. Which one would you buy?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
... And don't say that you don't believe that your govt. has zero accountability, not when not once have you mentioned them.

What about Mexican (and even Canadian) accountability?

It is not a one-way street over the border. The "border," by definition, involves at least two countries.

Illegal immigration will not end until we control the source (Mexico, Canada) and the incentive (work and social incentives).

Drugs and guns mean nothing to the carpenter, landscaper or maid, and children, looking for decent income, health care and education.

Reaction? What about causation?

Possible solutions, with amnesty, were considered in 2007, but Congress didn't have the guts to upset busieness and minority constituencies with tough reforms.

The only resolution is to remove incentives to cross without documentation and the ability to assimilate, and to remove incentives to hire those so crossing. Simple. 2 steps.

Here's a proposition for "Immigration Reform, Illegal Immigration, and Accountability":
www.abovetopsecret.com...

If we decide to put responsibility where it belongs, on Mexico and employers, the'problem' can be resolved. The reverse migration that's begun under the recession and the drop-off in Mexico's second-largest source of income (money sent back from the U.S.) prove the source of the problem.

deny ignorance

jw

Lastly, that which I do not entirely agree with Modern, at least the way Modern presents. I do not agree that it is America's fault that Mexico could get these 150 guns. It was Mexico's fault for not imprisoning these requesters of these guns as they (the cartels) are know and have been causing violence for some time now.

However the same could be argued on the reason why the drug cartels have a business. America's lust for drugs. Stop the demand then stop the trafficing and violence as business goes elsewhere. This could get into another topic of debate which I DO NOT want anyone to debate as it may violate ATS's T&C.

Yes, I do agree that they could be used as a "scapegoat" by the gun grabbers. They most likely will use this as "100% proof that all guns come from America" which is BS.

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
The guns they have confiscated are going to be found to be from our own government, given to the Mexican forces and then rerouted to the cartels. If anything, those arrested in this case and others are clowns that tried to get into the drug business and wasn't smart enough to know how to buy from their own southern neighbors.

Mexico's ambassador to the US has urged America to stop the flow of guns and cash that pass into his country, fuelling the country's drug wars.

Arturo Sarukhan said US money and weapons provided the drug cartels with the means to "corrupt, bribe and kill".

More than 6,000 people died last year in Mexico in drug-related violence and Mexico believes 90% of the weapons used by drug cartels come from the US.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, on a visit to Mexico, said Wednesday that America's inability to prevent weapons being smuggled across the border is causing the deaths of Mexican police officers, soldiers and civilians

"You're going to spend $8,000 and sell them for $20,000 or $25,000 down in Mexico," according to an agent who wished to be identified only as Steve.

www.cbsnews.com...

Mexican drug cartels have easy access to thousands of American gun dealers just on the other side of the border.

Mexican authorities have been quite vocal in the past year about the role that the U.S. is playing in the escalation of gun violence in Mexico. Last year, no less than 20,000 weapons were seized in drug-related actions, raids, arrests, and shoot-outs; nearly all of them were sold in the U.S.

The shame is warranted, and worth pondering. The action that needs to be taken, on the other hand, can afford no such luxury, because the people who have the misfortune to live in one of Mexico’s deadly drug war zones have already become the casualties of our demanding drug habits, our orgiastic worship of guns, and our obsession with profit without concern for consequence.

www.alternet.org...'s_drug_war_bloodbath:_guns_from_the_u.s._are_destabilizing_the_country/


Need I go on?
Because believe me I can!
You should all read that alternet link in it's entirity.

American govt. finances Pakistan's nuclear projects, ok good now let's invade these damn terroists.

America puts Mussarref into power, he creates havoc ok let's invade.

Create a base for blowback, then portray it as what initiated a response.

Come on man!

[edit on 19-5-2009 by ModernAcademia]

Originally posted by xxpigxx
Or perhaps it is a setup? Maybe the people selling guns are just a scapegoat to get the anti gun nuts charging full steam.

Just sayin

That's what I was thinking. This seems like a pretty convenient bust.

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

My idea of the root of the problem is that their are people breaking the law by crossing our borders ILLEGALLY! If they didnt make a decision to cross the border ILLEGALLY then there wouldnt be a problem.

Would someone explain this to Obama and his DHS sec. Napolitano?

She doesn't belive crossing the border without documentation is illegal!
"Napolitano: Illegal Immigration is NOT a Crime"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Untill we get common sense and a commitment to enforce laws already on the books in the White House, why bother?

jw

Originally posted by jdub297
She doesn't belive crossing the border without documentation is illegal!
"Napolitano: Illegal Immigration is NOT a Crime"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Untill we get common sense and a commitment to enforce laws already on the books in the White House, why bother?

Common sense is irrelevant.
She didn't say this because she is stupid, she said it because they have an agenda.

Now the question is, what is that agenda?

The link provided here by jdub297 is a clear example on why focusing on the symptoms will get you nowhere.

There is clearly something going on, and there is an agenda that is being pushed.

Illegal immigrants are irrelevant to illegal immigration......almost!
At least at this point right now.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


So could you please get to the point of this "agenda" you keep referencing? Why not just tell us so we can debate it instead of doing everything in the form of a question.

reply to post by justsomeboreddude


I have no idea
Maybe it's to further destabalize the economy
Maybe cause more crime so a police state is needed.

Who knows, but let's talk about it without talking about illegal immigrants.
They are almost irrelevant now.

That's all i'm saying, my message is let's focus on the root of the problem and not the symptoms.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Ok so if I understand you then the root of the problem in your opinion is the US government. So what do you recommed we do about this problem?

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I have an idea of what this agenda could be. So lets say you create a welfare state by letting people survive even though they dont work. You give them food, housing, utilities, a little spending cash, etc. Then these same people start to believe they are above working jobs they find to be beneath them. So you have no one to do the jobs anymore. So you let illegals come over and do those jobs in their place.

The beauty of this plan is that you have created a group of people totally dependent on the government. As the economy declines, people start to realize "Hey I am working my butt off for what that person gets for free". So pretty soon more people decide "to heck with it" and go onto welfare. Thus, creating more government dependent people. Then you start to interfere with private enterprise and more people loose their jobs as you GIVE AWAY american factories and/or put them in the hands of labor unions. Gradually more and more people become government dependent. So being the good politician you say "Hey lets all be socialist and things will get better." Then you have a whole country that becomes government dependent and they the government can do whatever they want because they will just cut off your food, housing, etc whenever you disagree.

[edit on 5/19/2009 by justsomeboreddude]

Please forgive me for being so ignorant. But wouldn't the arms flow from the US to Mexico and the illegal immigrant flow from Mexico to the US both be stemmed if there was more of a push towards border security?

I dunno, maybe it's just me...

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
reply to post by justsomeboreddude

 

I have no idea
Maybe it's to further destabalize the economy
Maybe cause more crime so a police state is needed.

Who knows, but let's talk about it without talking about illegal immigrants.
They are almost irrelevant now.

That's all i'm saying, my message is let's focus on the root of the problem and not the symptoms.

Wait a minute...

You mentioned illegal immigrants in your post. And now you want to leave that portion out of the conversation? Let's keep it in the conversation, since it is part of the OP...

[edit on 5/19/2009 by billybobh3]

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Mexican authorities have been quite vocal in the past year about the role that the U.S. is playing in the escalation of gun violence in Mexico. Last year, no less than 20,000 weapons were seized in drug-related actions, raids, arrests, and shoot-outs; nearly all of them were sold in the U.S.

100% total b.s.

You believe Hillary Clinton's apology?

20,000+ guns seized AND tested AND traced to the U.S. Not only untrue, completely impossible!

These guns would've been seized from multiple locations, housed in separate locations and only availbale for examination under strict security.

How many "traces" per day, 24/7, would Mexico, then the F.B.I., have to coordinate to reach such a conclusion?

"Sold in the U.S." when? By whom? More misleading propagnada, and unsupported by fact.

The truth is that weapons are commodities, traded like machine parts, in large quantities by importers and exporters in State Department Trade programs.

deny ignorance.

jw