Time travelling

Question directly above is answered in the edit of the quoted material.

Comment two posts above still confuses me. Expansion means it expanded from somwhere right? So, I don't want to say there in an edge to the Universe, but there definitely is a center. Unless of course black holes are the factors of expansion (see thread titled 'white holes').

[Edited on 5-2-04 by xenophanes85]

Originally posted by xenophanes85
LOL ... how sad ... this guy doesn't even know science itself, especially time related issues, is based on guess work. There are no absolutes in the unknown. You my freind, clearly do not have a degree in physics either. Maybe a degree in capitalization issues though.

Sorry, xenophanes, I missed that. But I'd still like a bit of clarification.

Do you mean to say here that everything science studies remains part of the unknown, no matter how reliably a theory can predict the behavior we see in the universe around us? And therefore all science is is a collection of guesses?

As far as expansion goes:

Current theory doesn't see a center to the universe. Someone knowledgeable once explained expansion to me this way:

"Imagine a bunch of points on the surface of a balloon. As the balloon is blown up, every point moves away from every other point. Now imagine everything in the universe as a point on the surface of a balloon. With the Big Bang, the universe started expanding like a balloon and everything in the universe is moving away from everything else. That's how expansion works."

The Big Bang is a horrible term for this theory, imho, because it is so confusing. It makes it sound like the universe exploded into being and that is really misleading. It didn't explode, it expanded.

First, i will put in my rant then move on.... One should not put other down for their opinions. some answers may be off the mark, but, they all start us thinking. even PHYSICISTS do not know the answers we are talking about. THAT IS PROVEN. especially when you are talking about Space, time or is it Space-Time. That is even up for grabs by many. Ok, back to the main issue.

Big Bang and when time began? hmmm...Well, Big Bang does nothing to tell us when time was actually 0. I actually explains a micro micro or something like 10 to the 35th of a second, I think is the equation. It is just a theory that also does not explain how, what, why, when, where, or even if a bang happened. Also, it will basically be impossibly to be able to measure accurately the beginning of time, well at least not by observation, as light from the origional galaxies that were supposedly strewn out into the universe has not reached us and probably will not reach us until us, the earth, the sun and probably out solar system are pretty much extinguished.

Without going into a book itself, I would suggest studying Inflationary Cosmology. This will help with understanding at least our current ideas of the cosmos beginnings, but there are alot more questions than there are answers. Like... What actually caused the big bang in the first place. That would meantime would have to be moving forward during this period....hmmm... how all this condensed matter happened or accumulated supposedly before time began? So, the starting point is to understand the Arrow of Time. Why only forward and not backwards

a simple question to ponder is why does a water ballon break, but not unbreak? theorectically, it is possible, but the chances of it happening are so slim that it is not conceivable.... so, this brings more questions of time.....
basically it takes us to the chicken andthe egg theory.... It time started with the big bag... how did the big bang happen without time?

OK, OK, so this posts does not answer any questions, but actually there are no answers... Just more things to PONDER.....

Cheers ...

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
First, i will put in my rant then move on.... One should not put other down for their opinions. some answers may be off the mark, but, they all start us thinking. even PHYSICISTS do not know the answers we are talking about. THAT IS PROVEN. especially when you are talking about Space, time or is it Space-Time. That is even up for grabs by many. Ok, back to the main issue.

I completely agree about putting other people down. Other than one unpleasant rant, I think this discussion has been pleasant and respectful. But I can't agree with your statement that even physicists do not know the answers we are talking about. But I will agree they don't know all of them.

On the other hand, I do think physicists know a lot of the answers we are talking about. And they are able to make good predictions about how the universe works because of it. They don't know everything and willingly admit it. But that is not the same as knowing nothing, not by a long shot. The advances in physics over the last 100 years, particularly relativity and quantum mechanics make spaceflight, nuclear power and the microminaturization of electronics possible.

Big Bang and when time began? hmmm...Well, Big Bang does nothing to tell us when time was actually 0. I actually explains a micro micro or something like 10 to the 35th of a second, I think is the equation. It is just a theory that also does not explain how, what, why, when, where, or even if a bang happened. Also, it will basically be impossibly to be able to measure accurately the beginning of time, well at least not by observation, as light from the origional galaxies that were supposedly strewn out into the universe has not reached us and probably will not reach us until us, the earth, the sun and probably out solar system are pretty much extinguished.

Current physics theory cannot describe the physical condition of the universe before a certain point after the Big Bang, and I think that your "10 to the 35th of a second" references that. But that is a different matter from using the Big Bang to find time zero.

And I must point out again that the rate of expansion of the universe is what is being used to calculate its age. We don't need to see the light from the original galaxes to do figure out the rate of expansion.

Glee, actually, i agree with you 100%.. i think that it came out wrong. I did not mean that they do not know anything, I was actually talking about the origons of the universe from how it got started in the first place and time travel possibility all together. I think we are 90% there, but that 10% has to be somewhat pure speculation. I So, I was trying to just make a point about that there really is no 100% (by physics standards anyway). Sorry it came out wrong.

I personally feel travel to the past is not possible, and I am in the majority. But, it cannot be ruled out as strictly impossible, at least with todays understanding.
Well, unless we could find a way to be able to stop time and somehow use it as a catalyst like door of some sort. Then, we would probably have to recognize the and mark it somehow. Then, continually make these doors and then have a reference to jump back to. Not sure of the math, but just popped into my head as I was typing this, so I look forward to the actual science tearing this theory up... ha ha

I agree that time travel can't be ruled out by what we know today. In fact, there was an article on the BBC about a scientist who claims he moved an electron in time. It was a while ago, and I don't have a link, but it was very interesting.

Originally posted by glee
In fact, there was an article on the BBC about a scientist who claims he moved an electron in time. It was a while ago, and I don't have a link, but it was very interesting.

Are you talking about Robert Mallet?
www.phys.uconn.edu...

I am very interested in his work. Read this article.... and it will really get your minds working...
www.thecrimson.harvard.edu...

Maybe it was him. His work is very interesting. The method for proving his experiment works is ingenious.

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by glee]

Hmm I have not done any extensive studies, but doesn't an event like the Big Bang require time and space to allready exist?
It's quite hard to picture an explosion that is not in space and not in time either.

As for a "starting point", why would time need a starting point? Why would time need a 0?
That would be the same as asking, what is the lowest X value in the universe? There is probably no lowest X value, meaning space is infinitely in size.

As for time travelling, you would not need to "enter a target point" if you want to travel to the future, using relativity.
You could just calculate how long you would need to travel at what speed to "skip" the desired amount of time outside of your "ship".

Originally posted by xenophanes85
The folowing question must be asked and answered, when did the Big-Bang take place?

If you believe Time is a concept NOT a dimension, I think Time always has existed (meaning infinite). When the Big-Bang happened, Space was created. Space became a way to measure Time. The two together became the 4th dimension.

[Edited on 5-2-04 by xenophanes85]

The Big Bang or the begining of the universe and time as we know it has been measured by scientists through Direct observations of three distinct measurements.

Age in Billions of Years

1. Globular Cluster Filtering- 17.0 + or - 2.4
2. nucleochronology (supernova) - 17.0 + or - 4.0
3. Hubble Time 14.5 + or - 5.0

Mean Age = 16.3 + or - 3 billion years.

Alright, last night at 11:30, while trying to fall asleep in 80 degree weather, I came up with a far fetched, but possible theory on the Big Bang and how it's related to Time. I know you all would like to hear it and question it. But first, I must answer some other questions brought up.

Originally posted by glee
... Do you mean to say here that everything science studies remains part of the unknown, no matter how reliably a theory can predict the behavior we see in the universe around us? And therefore all science is is a collection of guesses? ...

Yes and no. We won't ever know the absolute truth as there will always be new factors we haven't ever come across. You can't say there won't be new factors either becasue how do we know there won't? That would imply we know everything even before we find it, and we obviously and definitely don't. Also, all science is based on guesses. That is to say, all science comes from Hypotheses which then become Law. Or at least they are Law until something different, an exception, comes along.

Originally posted by glee
"Imagine a bunch of points on the surface of a balloon. As the balloon is blown up, every point moves away from every other point. Now imagine everything in the universe as a point on the surface of a balloon. With the Big Bang, the universe started expanding like a balloon and everything in the universe is moving away from everything else. That's how expansion works."

I realize you weren't the one who came up with this explanation, but you seem to accept it as truth. In addition to the point you brought up, another thing wrong with this theory is that it basically says the Universe (the air inside the balloon) has an edge (the balloon itself). That leads me to ask, what is the Universal equivalant to the air outside of the balloon? I will come back to this later as this is what I developed my recent theory on.

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
... a simple question to ponder is why does a water ballon break, but not unbreak? theorectically, it is possible, but the chances of it happening are so slim that it is not conceivable.... so, this brings more questions of time.....
basically it takes us to the chicken andthe egg theory.... It time started with the big bag... how did the big bang happen without time? ...

*The following is assuming the water balloon Japan talks about is different than the one glee refers to. Although, I suppose both theories could be applied to the same balloon?*

To me, the remark about the water balloon theoretically proves time travel to the past is possible. In order for the balloon to un-break, it must first break. In order for it to break, it must have been filled with water. Un-breaking is the opposite or reverse action of breaking. Reverse can be thought of as going back in time - like rewind on the VCR (obsolte technology but perfect object for the explanation of time travel). Fast forward being travelling into the future. That doesn't necessarily mean I am saying everything will go in reverse when the first thing (human or otherwise) travels back in time.

Now, the theory.
Referring once again to glee's balloon and the area outside of the balloon. Assume time in both tenses is infinite. Space, before the Unverse, is made up of dark matter ONLY, infinite in every direction. The space before and outside of Space (Space being the Universe), will now be referred to as 'Alpha Space'. The space IN the Universe will now be referred to as 'Omega Space'. The following takes place before the Big Bang. Suppose dark matter is the building block, the raw material, of matter and, essentially, light (light comes from matter). Suppose there are regions or a single region, in Alpha Space that are more concentrated than others in this dark matter. At this or these points, the Big Bang happened, which (if there is more than one concentrated point) would imply mulitple, or parallel Universes. That's beside the point. The Big Bang we know, the one that formed OUR Universe, is when Time for us in this Universe began, 16.3 (� 3) billion years ago. Basically, Alpha Space is infinite and Alpha Time is infinite in BOTH tenses. Omega Space has an edge and Omega Time is infinite only to the future, since the Big Bang created Omega Space. It has an an edge in the sense that beyond this 'edge' there is Alpha Space. A limit I suppose. Now suppose you get to the 'edge' of Omega Space, what will you see as you look towards Alpha space? It will look like Omega Space butwith out ANY light or matter - pitch black nothingness. Just to clarify, Omega Space is made up of dark matter AND light and matter where Alpha Space is made up ONLY of dark matter. To make it easier to understand, glee's balloon is brought up. The air inside the balloon is Omega space. The air outside of the balloon is Alpha space. The balloon itself is the boundy, the limit, the border, of Alpha space and Omega Space. This could then be related to where dark matter comes from. Black holes are portals to Alpha space, the source of dark matter.

However, there is one problem with this theory. Why did the Big Bang happen 13-19 billion years ago? Why not 300 trillion years ago? If time is infinite into the past, the Big Bang in Alpha Space could of happened at any time - dark matter would of had to have time form and group together, implying a finite begining.

So, in short, I have explained my belief of where matter comes from. Now I have to figure out where and when dark matter came from. Whew.

This theory, diagrams, and an alternative to this theory on my site soon.

I have a headache (seriously).

[Edited on 5-3-04 by xenophanes85]

If you cant understand quantum...and the works of Dr. Deustch, you are arguing with your own EGO!!....And of you think a man of his intellect does not understand every aspect of relativity..you are definitely not of the scientific community!!!

Comfort yourself in you ignorance!

time travel franky why would u want it ud only screw up the time line
also why do we need to discuss temporal physics it gives people headaches and concusions

Xenophanes, the balloon is just a analogy. It has a few problems: it sees the universe's geometry as extrinsic, as imbedded in a higher dimension, while the universe's geometry is today considered intrinsic, it is not imbedded in a higher dimension. For people inside the universe there is no way to see the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic geometry, but scientists decided to go for intrinsic geometry, because we don't have to guess or make assumptions for that.

Your theory has that same problem. You have to assume there is Alpha space. Is there any evidence that there is Alpha space, that there are the same laws of nature there (thus allowing dark matter to exist) and that the dark matter is actually there? We can't look outside our universe (if there is an outside) and we can't look before the big bang (if there is a before). The problem is that no theory about before or outside can ever be proven and that's why scientists have decided to for the simplest explanation: there is no before or outside.

Phaselink, why don't you make a thread about the theories of David Deutsch. He is a respectable scientist with some publications at Arxiv.org, so you should not have problems finding information.

Travelling to the past is a fairytale, just like being able to fly by drinking a magical drink is a fairytale.
It's not based on investigated evidence like travelling to the future is, and the theories that people have made about travelling to the past are based on peoples fantasy instead of logical thinking.
Of course it would be very cool if it was possible, just like it would be very cool if we would be able to fly by drinking a magic drink, but unfortunately it's not.

Right, so, I take it you've studied and understood the implications of the latest developments in quantum mechanics/entanglement in order to dismiss them as fantasy in such a sweeping manner?

How would you actually define a point in time to where you would want to go back or forward to?

Time isn't a spatial dimension so how do you travel 'though' it, when time is rather a measure of specific units between 2 or more events.

As for creating parallel universes, i think that is kind of a far fetched idea, sure it solves alot of problems with time travel, but since there is the whole universe's life for someone to time travel that means that it could have happened multiple times, meaning that we could be part of a paralell universe, but since our universe began with a presumed bigbang(and didnt branch off from a timeline and continue at a age older than 0) then i think that it is not the case so i disregard parallel universes.

Time progresses at a constant of 1/1 to your 'proper' time relative to all your immediate surroundings(solar system, galaxy arm; i think). When you speed up it slows down to lets say 1/5 at the max (speed of light), that would put you KINDA forward in time in respect to your immediate surroundings.(kinda cos ur still progressing by your 'proper' time so cant be called instantaneous time travel) but you cant get 2/1 or 3/1 because you cant travel slower than a relative velocity of 0 (remember nothing has a true velocity except light).

so ya.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by quiksilver]

Yeah Paul, I have read about that as well.
Those theories are not based on solid proof either, a lot of assuming and fantasy is needed to finish those theories.

Regardless of this, the idea of stopping time completely, or even reversing it makes no sense whatsoever, let stand stopping time or reversing time for the entire world around you.
Time can not be stopped, it can be bended like proven with relativaty, slowing it down to a point close to 0, but it can not be 0.
Too many laws, rules and theories would stop making sense if that would be possible.

Originally posted by Phaselink
If you cant understand quantum...and the works of Dr. Deustch, you are arguing with your own EGO!!....And of you think a man of his intellect does not understand every aspect of relativity..you are definitely not of the scientific community!!!

Comfort yourself in you ignorance!

Calm Down.

I have read his book the Fabric of Reality and I was fairly impressed. The book explains and connects many topics at the leading edge of current research and thinking, such as quantum computers ,the physics of time travel, the comprehensibility of nature and the physical limits of virtual reality, the significance of human life, and the ultimate fate of the universe.

However you must remember one thing. All of Dr. Deustch work is just a theory not fact.

well this is in reply to quest and to jakko(spelling)

if a place is 20 lights years away , measured from the earths reference frame, and you traveled there going at .5 c then it would take 34.6 years. its something that is hard to understand because light years seem like they would be the barrier for travel. but that is only from a reference frame moving slow with respect to light. in other words the "proper time", which is not "proper" in a more "real" sense, but is the time that is measured by the traveler is related to the time of the earth (in this case) by this equation T = T(proper) * gamma . so the crazy part is that you can actually travel to ANY distance you like withint your lifetime assuming you can get closer and closer to the speed of light.

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by panachronic]

nice posts i like the balloon idea
also just rem nothing is certain 100%