I was watching a program on the television the other day about amazing things the ancients did. One thing they were going to show was how the Inca's created their walls with such perfect edges, and made the cracks so thin you can't even get a knife into them.

However, I was running late for work and wasn't able to see how they did it. Here is a picture if my description didn't make any sense:




IMAGE SOURCE: farm4.static.flickr.com...

Thank you all.

GO PENS!

I've seen it done by re-enactors. You pull, push and cuss a stone into place and then push it from one side, then the other, until it has worn away to a good fit. Much better stonelaying technique than mortaring the stones, especially in earthquake country.

Yeah some of them are just crazy in size and the shapes.




Stones
Archaeological Excavations Lead To Discovery Of Inca


[edit on 15-5-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by Gawdzilla

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That's interesting. How large were the stones used for the demonstration?

I would imagine that they wouldn't go 'all out' in recreating the size and complexity of the ancient structures, but just how much trouble was the process giving to how many men?

The one I saw was about the size of the center stone in the OP pix, if I read that right, about one meter cube. Weighed in excess of 1,000 kilograms. They only used 20 men on a side, and had it fit in about 30 minutes. Apparently you only have to move the stone about three inches each way. The people on the scene estimated they could have reduced the time by using levers instead of simply pushing it. Pre-dressing would also speed things oup.

reply to post by Gawdzilla

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That's incredibly interesting. I like that as a plausible answer to how they are so well placed in their final positions, but what about the sometimes long distances they had to move the stones?

I am not adressing you so much as wondering if they had any inkling of an explination at the recreation; they seem to have a better idea about the logistics of these things than most of us do.

Hands on as opposed to my computer screen.

reply to post by spines

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On the show I watched, they explained how the Incas used various methods to move the very large stones long distances.

First, they beveled the bottom of the stone. This makes the stone much more movable, and decreases the amount of pressure needed to push/pull the stone by half. A 30 ton stone would then only take 15 tons worth of work to move.

Second, they made cobblestone pathways, which reduced friction to move the large rocks.

Thats really all I can remember, like I said, I was getting ready for work at the time, the show didn't have my full concentration... I wish I could watch it again. Hoping for a rerun, ill record it.

reply to post by Schmidt1989

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Do you remember what channel it was on? Maybe I could search around and find some good watching later.

The more viewpoints the better on something like this. I find it easy to fall into whatever it is I am leaning towards most.

As dry stone walls go, the Incan walls are the most impressive. Earthquake proof and attractive to look at. I read that although most of the blocks butt up against adjacent blocks, some only superficially touch. Behind the visible aspects of the wall's face, some blocks taper away and are filled with back-fill and dry mix.

I understand the Incan stonemasons exploited the natural fissures (grooves, cracks and wet wooden wedges etc) to produce the shaped blocks needed. Still, it's hard not look at the walls and think 'Wow.' The video (1:20 min to 3min) below shows how skilled the masons were. The images always impressed, but the close-up video really highlights their outrageous talents...

YouTube Link

reply to post by spines

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I believe it was probably history, or National Geographic perhaps. I have about 4 or 5 different history channels so it could have been any one of them.

The key to moving the stones is really simple. Time. They were on a "sacred" mission or paying their "taxes" with labor, so it didn't matter how long they took. They might not have even considered that it would be done in their lifetimes in some cases. Remember that after the crops were in the ground tending could be left to children and women, so the men would be available to move stones. (In Europe this was called "the campaigning season".)

On a slight side rail: I often see people say, "They didn't even have the WHEEL!" Moving a multi-ton stone on a wagon with very little metal available and wooden wheels? I don't think so.

Sleds were used. Due to the limited compressibility of wood you can place huge weights on it and it will retain its strenght and shape (it will not be crushed).

Unfortunately, such a sensible solution to the problems of moving large stones has too high a yawn-factor, so it's often ignored in favor of "alien anti-gravity beams".

That is quite possibly the most absolute best quote i've ever read on ATS. I tip my hat to you. It's just toooooo true.

Of course then theres the question of how they lifted these enormous stones into place- not to mention cutting them to a perfect (and I mean perfect) interlocking fit...truly amazing..

There are a couple of stones that make up the wall at Sacsayhuaman that weigh in excess of 100 tons.

Good question. (About the lifting, anyway.) The building techniques were probably the "Manhattan Project" of their day, a state secret. This didn't necessarily mean nobody knew about them, just that committing them to a permanent record was taboo. If you had wall paintings showing that people did the work it would be harder to claim the god built your city just for you.

This is possibly the reason we don't see much depiction of the pyramid building in Egypt. Which is better mojo? "The guys got together and built it." OR "The sun god Ra willed it into existence!"

I once saw some program explain that there is a bird in the area that hacks it's nest in solid stone. How it did that was that it used some plant that apparently softened the stone to the point a bird could dig a hole into it. It said that it was being investigated but I haven't heard anything since and can't remember what program that was. I always thought that if the incas used this softening technique it would explain the perfect fit of the stones. Anyone else see this and remember the program?

Interesting. Does the plant permanently soften the stone or only temporarily? You'd have to have quite a bit of it to do the walls pictured in the OP, true?

I cant remember much details. It might've been a red flower that the birds chew up. It crew near some major river. Cant recall if it permanently softened stone or not. If anyone has any more details pls post

Exactly the above mentioned examples of how they worked them are great for the smaller stones but when we get up to the 50+ ton ones I can't see how they moved them with sleds along cobblestone path and then rubbed them back and forth to fit so tightly. I'm not saying "Aliens" did it. I'm just wondering how they did it when it comes to their largest stone. And what about the multifaceted ones? How did they undercut to make it fit so tightly? You cant rub it from underneath.





Take a look at this one here for example. See where the lady is standing with the child? Notice the stone edge she is facing. Tell me how they moved a stone that huge back and forth to "Rub" it into place.

It seems to me it would have just been easier to cut them square.