Former Fundamentalist 'Debunks' Bible

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posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by firegoggles
 



A book is not proof either...it can be a tool but its not proof that can hold ground in a true debate.

Someone can accept it as truth...but that still does not make it so.




posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by Imago Dei

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by orangetom1999
 

I had a much longer post here before I realised that I only need to say one thing to point out the stupidity of you mindset equating the school of science to a religion.


Is Science to be the new faith?

[Contradictory statement.]

No matter how you slice it, bring in politics all you like, Science is the study of Nature. Science explicitly demands that faith play no role in it's methodology.



Quod Gratis asseritur, Gratis negatur.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Welfhard]


In actual fact, if one where to observe the discovery of the phenomenal numeric pattern uncovered in the greek and hebrew biblical texts by Ivan Panin and some others, (as I have) one will clearly see an irrefuteable scientific and mathmatical marvel that can not be denied that a superior mind of mathmatical genius wrote the Holy Bible, to the point where faith is no longer required.

However, sadly this remarkable discovery seems to do more for the faith of believers than it does to convince unbelievers, and it broke Ivan Panins heart that even the Christian Leaders of the day, back in the early 1930s discounted his lifes work of some 50 years built upon the 40 plus years of Westcott and Hort, as unimprotant.

Suffice it to say that when light came into the world, the world loved darkness. So when unbelievers chose to ignore the facts, one is left with the only decision that is logical and rational and that is to leave them be.

However dear brothers and sisters in the faith, be encouraged that Holy Scripture is indeed irrefutebaly the words handed down by allmighty God, over 1600 hundred years in 66 and I and convinced that that God in His wisdom used this man Ivan Panin mightely because he knew that in the midst of the ever increasing disinformation being scattered asunder about the bible, that believers would need such overwhelming evidence in these last days so as to have their faith in His blessed word bolsterd and unshaken. And may that be the case with you until the end of your earthly days.

God Bless You all.


Correction to the scribes of bible the 26, not 22, my mistake.



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by firegoggles
 



A book is not proof either...it can be a tool but its not proof that can hold ground in a true debate.

Someone can accept it as truth...but that still does not make it so.


If you are refering to the Holy Bible not being poof that can hold ground in a debate, then you are categorically 100% wrong. The astounding proof available to all is not even up for debate, it's proven and set in stone for all eternity.

That the bible is the inspired word of God, IE God breathed, given by God, written by God through men etc etc, is fundamental to the Christian faith.

That all scripture is inspired by God is the last battle ground for the faith in these latter days. Which is self evident in every single internet forum discssion on the topic in the whole world wide web. It has been proven with out doubt with irrefuteble evidence that the bible is indeed supernarutally inspired. And the evidence is the phenominal mathmatical patterns in every word of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. That makes it so.

And no I'm not talking about bible code nonsense either.

God has given us two great volumes and He has written both.

And they are nature/creation its self, and the 66 Books of the Holy Bible. Both have His perfect mathmatical finger print on every word and upon everything that is, and each stand alone as proof of God the author of life and the author of scripture, and each do not contradict each other and both together leave every human being that has ever lived and every human being alive and every human being in the future, without excuse.

Have your opinions by all means mate, but you can't be lieing bald face lies in nearly every post you make now can you?.





[edit on 22-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 


And what makes you so sure that these men that wrote the history was receiving divine intervention?

What makes you so sure all of the stories reflect God and a Holy nature?

How are you so sure that you are not being mislead?

How do you know that your belief in a blood sacrifice demanded by God isnt the most blasphemous thought you could have?

There are spiritual beings that are going to stand up against this and they will be considered to be lead by Satan...the book has already set it up to be so.

It is not hard to prophecies a future when you have a people that consider themselves special and a land special as well....its not hard to predict that they will choose a savior as a sacrifice and a future of wars over land and race for their belief focused around these things.

You are not discerning what Gods nature is or would be...and yes you have this capability...it is the entire reason of knowing good from evil...light from dark....Thee made us with reason to discern our truest nature. In result we come to know who we are and the nature from whence we came. Your most purest nature is not jealous, wrathful or selfish....just as though God is not these things. Only in the flesh do we tempt ourselves through jealousy, wrath, selfishness. You are free to accept blindly...by all means. The fool as taught man that jealousy is a attribute of God...the fool has taught man that God has primal attributes.

I have enough sense to not call you a liar...because I can reason and know that what you speak is your belief...where your faith is. I cant call your faith a lie. Your faith does not offend me in any way. I understand why you say that my words are lies but it is important to remember....I know that I will meet my maker one day...I am well aware of this. What reason would I have to become a heretic to many believers...what reason would I have to turn in my faith and then share my entire life with others. What reason would I have to base my faith on a lie. Obviously, I believe that my words are not lies...just as though you believe yours are not lies. When I was following the Bible, I never felt the need to come to forums and speak about my faith. It wasnt until the shift in my faith I learned from the Spirit that I needed to speak about natures and the discernment of them. I do feel that I am doing the will of the spirit...not of myself. I know and am prepared for many to rebuke this and close their ears and eyes. But no one can take away the beauties that I have been shown. I have dedicated my life to live for others and this was also a part of the divine nature I was shown within me...within God. The Holy Spirit lives for others....the offering of life is just that...for others...not the self.

So many are caught up with the individual salvation. The lie was that you needed to be saved....that you werent worthy with just your pure honest heart.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 04:45 PM
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The lie was that you needed to be saved....that you werent worthy with just your pure honest heart.

reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


No, THAT is the Lie. The is no man or woman of pure and honest heart. What do you think the entire Old Testament was about? The Law and the Prophets? To show us that we could not keep God's Law. The Law was a mirror so we could see our filthy condition. Jesus is the wash basin under it so we can be cleansed.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 05:09 PM
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God has never looked at us as filthy.

God understands what it is like to be a soul with a body in a material world.

God holds the most prime image of us.

How does the blood of Jesus cleanse you? This doesnt make your heart any more perfect or pure....

God does not need death or blood letting for any reason. Thee is much greater then this and we have a very narrow and limited image of Thee. Its actually a very ancient practice we need to grow out of...a blood sacrifice....killing something for someone else wrongs.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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AND....

its not a lie...for it is how the door opened for me to seek the Holy Spirit.

I had to let go of this thought of a blood sacrifice....in order for the Holy Spirit to show me.

So I do believe this is the exact reason many are being held back from understanding...that this belief misleads the soul so much so that a person cant begin to understand or reach the Holy Spirit of God.

I have weighed both natures...the one demanding a blood sacrifice is not the most pure divine nature of all.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar
 
Well, God did not think everyone in the OT was considered dirty. He buries Moses
Elijah was taken up to heaven without the sting of death
Enoch was also given a pass to heaven
David was said to be a man after God's own heart

Yes,we were under the Law in the OT daysm but I think God ever gave up on his children. He seemed like he had a little help when things started to go crazy. Lile blood sacrifice.

Just my thoughts
Grandma



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by Grandma
 


To me..it seems like this sacrifice was a common idea back then in many beliefs for a 'quick fix'.

But any humble person that has brought yourself before Thee with humbled intentions and a will to face ones own wrongs....knows...there is no quick fix.

It is very easy to say...Satan tempted me...isnt it. But something is missing here in this thought....the person is not owning up to the fact of their primal nature that they have allowed to rule over their spiritual nature.

Truly the world around us and us experiencing life as 'individuals' tempts us with pride, greed, lust and hate. This is not a separate person doing this to us...this is life itself...spirit in the flesh....having conflict in one place. The two mix just about as well as oil and water.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 

You keep saying that He required a blood sacrifice, but you don't seem to get the fact that He provided it Himself. God didn't require anything that He wasn't prepared to Give. Attempting to turn that into something ugly reveals to me that you haven't come to terms with your own place in relationship to His position. You seem to think you are on par with Him, a delusion that has plagued most of the worlds despots.

I find it odd that you talk about the Holy Spirit and God but you leave out the third aspect of the Trinity. Which is Christ. This is always attempted by the enemy. Disobedience to God has been his prime objective from the beginning. God has provided the way to Himself, if you want to convince yourself that you can come to Him 'your' way then be my guest. As Christ so plainly said, 'no one comes to the Father except through me'. Ignore Him at your peril.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar
 


It is through Jesus's humble offering of this life for the eternal one that I learned the we are all children of God. I have been brought to my knees many times while the Spirit led me through the thought process of what Jesus would of went through. To know many will rebuke you....to know many will not believe or understand...to know many will wish you death...and to still remain righteous and remain forgiving....for they do not know what they do. Yes, I have learned much from the man they call Jesus but I dont claim to know everything about him. I was not there, I did not live in that time and I also know that the Romans were in desperate need to gain some control over the religious groups.

Do you really think God wants us to place so much faith in a book? I used to think the same...so I do understand. But within the last few years...I see this is not so. It would defeat the entire purpose of seeking Thee without unbiased thoughts.

I know its comforting to think God left us all the answers....in a book...but what purpose is there to think that life is soo complicated that a rule book had to be written to explain how to have a relation with God. People were finding and feeling God long before the rule book.

But I claim no trinity or God in the flesh as his own son. I believe Jesus taught and believed we are all daughters and sons of God. Just because God can do something doesnt mean God will or does.

God is not so complicated...and I do not consider myself on the same level as God but what most dont realize is that God is not seeking worship as in God stands before us while we worship Thee...that is a dictator. I know when I kneel...God is right there with me. When I stand tall and sing my heart out...God is singing with me. When I come to Thee to work out my wrongs before Thee....I receive love and patients and a guide on how to be stronger for the next time. When I sit and absorb happiness beaming from my children....I know God is absorbing this right along with me.

I know what I say goes against the grain for many. I dont expect anything...but it is still my will to bring the voice I bring.


[edit on 23-6-2009 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 09:44 PM
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I believe Jesus taught and believed we are all daughters and sons of God.

reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Jesus taught exactly what I quoted above, that he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and the ONLY way back to the Father. Pray tell, why is it that you think God has let you decide how you will approach Him? So you would dictate to God how you would return?

No, you will be covered in Christ's Perfection or you will not approach. The best part is that it's so easy to accept Forgiveness. Although listening to you I understand just how hard it can be to part with ones Pride in order to accept it. The Bible is not a rule book, it's a Love Letter. Beginning to end the story of Man's separation from God and His Loving Sacrifice to bring us back to Him.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar
 


Pride was one of the first things I had to let go of. I thought I knew...I was sure I knew...

but was shown something different and more humbling and more beautiful.

I never just decided anything...I was shown, slowly, through seeking in a personal relation. It is the ultimate love, without force or demands.

Love is not jealous..love is not prideful...love does not envy and love does not fail. God is love...and God does not change, Gods nature is steady and sure.

Please do not feel like I am arguing with you, I am only giving a counter voice to some of the things mentioned.

I know there are great souls ready for this growth...but my voice comes in fear that they are shackled with the rules givin to them enabling them to seek without a biased thought. If one is comfortable with their faith...then my words should no waver them from their belief. But if ones inner nature awakens at what I say...then it is up to them to seek a relation with God and find out for themselves...what it takes to make this relation and seek for their maker. I can speak on how my relation to Thee came about but ultimately...no person should take any mans word for it just because.

What most dont realize is that I once walked the path others walked, I accepted everything the Bible said. I understood the Holy Holidays and understood how the OT tied to the NT. I had accepted Jesus as my sacrifice as was thankful every day for this gift. When I felt a stirring in my soul to seek deeper, to search other things....it was not easy...I felt I was doing wrong because the Bible said it was wrong. It was not easy! But so many things began to make sense...ideas just fell into place, I can only describe it as an awakening. I was shown I was already worthy...I had the right to seek Thee and I had the right to question things. And you know where the reasoning came from that I had to use to discern it all....from my mind, that God made me with. Thee showed me, we have this reasoning for this very reason...to discern the divine nature from the primal nature. Which led me to dare discern that all the stories of the Bible are not about our Divine maker. Some are...woven beautifully like a perfect stitch...but alot of the OT nature is how the men of that time thought of God...which is understandable why they thought what they did.

If you are tired of me responding....just say the word...we can agree to disagree. But this is my will and I feel that I am actually defending a Holy Nature that has been tarnished by our primal ways.

My best to you and yours
LV



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 10:42 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


While you claim that you have been 'enlightened', I'm afraid you have been Deceived. So, we'll agree to disagree. Best Regards



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by LeoVirgo
 




I understood the Holy Holidays and understood how the OT tied to the NT. I had accepted Jesus as my sacrifice as was thankful every day for this gift.


LeoVirgo,

I dont celebrate any holydays. None of them..not even a birthday.
For they are all His days...not mine

I am not under the bondage of the Olde Testament though the Olde Testament is my schoolmaster and I am not to be ignorant of it or what it teaches.

For my priesthood is not of Levi..but after Melchizedek...never Levi.

Also from the Olde Testament as well as the New Testament...chosen people do not choose..they are chosen...God does the choosing...not us. Not we..choose..but He chooses who are His....always. All of the Apostles were chosen...so too was Moses...and Paul.

He will make us acceptable..for His purposes..not ours. We do not accept anything...we are made acceptable by His will and for His purposes. For He will do His work in us for His reasons and purposes.

This is totally contrary to that taught by most churches and in bible colleges today.

For He is a Sovereign God.. and not a subject god.

Thanks,
Orangetom



[edit on 23-6-2009 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 




I understood the Holy Holidays and understood how the OT tied to the NT. I had accepted Jesus as my sacrifice as was thankful every day for this gift.


LeoVirgo,

I dont celebrate any holydays. None of them..not even a birthday.
For they are all His days...not mine

I am not under the bondage of the Olde Testament though the Olde Testament is my schoolmaster and I am not to be ignorant of it or what it teaches.

For my priesthood is not of Levi..but after Melchizedek...never Levi.

Also from the Olde Testament as well as the New Testament...chosen people do not choose..they are chosen...God does the choosing...not us. Not we..choose..but He chooses who are His....always. All of the Apostles were chosen...so too was Moses...and Paul.

He will make us acceptable..for His purposes..not ours. We do not accept anything...we are made acceptable by His will and for His purposes. For He will do His work in us for His reasons and purposes.

This is totally contrary to that taught by most churches and in bible colleges today.

For He is a Sovereign God.. and not a subject god.

Thanks,
Orangetom



[edit on 23-6-2009 by orangetom1999]


Hello orangetom,

I never said I celebrated them...I said I understood them.

I understand how you see it as God chooses...but I see it as anyonce can awaken, in which divine will become their order in life. God awaits all to come to Thee, learn Thy nature and this nature's will/order will become you.

God awaits for all lights to seek Thee...if sought with a humbled heart, its not like a choosing by God to work through that person....its the process, its a part of the way....that souls nature becomes like the divine nature...or works towards this at least.

But since some souls believe war must come...for a land chosen by God and a people chosen by God...there will be war. This is not Gods way.

Would love to hear more thoughts from ya...Im just kinda rambling tonight.



posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by The All Seeing I
 


sorry??

just because one man says this? there are many say otherwise. If one man found the temptations of this world too much to bare and gave in to them.

why should i listen to him?

Scholastic merit means nothing as we all form opinions despite the evidence, no matter what the subject.



posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 11:20 AM
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The bible has been shaped, molded and edited by the elites of societies since its construction, are people really naive enough to believe that everyone that contributed, did so for the love of a god and not use it as a mechanism to control people.

Remember if you didnt believe you were tortured or killed, if you questioned it, you were tortured or killed. It was a reason, it validated torture and killing.

If the bible is the word of god, then there are a hell of a lot of gods.


[edit on 24-6-2009 by Horus12]



posted on Jun, 24 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by Horus12
 


Kind of a backwards argument since the 'Laws' that society follows are Biblically based. Are you an Anarchist?

I assume you are describing the catholic church in the believe or die thing? Or maybe islam? Not sure, but the thing is that just because men hijack the Truth for their own evil purpose does not mean that the Truth is evil.



posted on Jun, 25 2009 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar
 


Depends what society you're from doesnt it? murdering, stealing and other crimes are against the law in many a country that dont follow the bible.

Take George Washington and the founding fathers of the U.S. they were freemasons. Freemasons were formed to advance their ideas based on science, reason, equality and freedom of thought.

If you read up on early freemasonary, its structure and ideas go a little against the religious organizations of the day, hence why it started as a secret society. So was early american law biblically based or did a little more thought go into it?, although some laws share the same principles, so do other nations laws who are not christian.

"The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by the Congress or the preference of one religion over another, non-religion over religion, or religion over non-religion."

Go back to ancient Eygpt and other pre-bible societies, they had laws, rules etc. you will find societies and laws are not a product of the bible. How ever did they manage to function without the bible eh?





And on your 2nd point, what about the crusades, were they not christians? try any country throughout history that has been conquored by a christian nation and had christianity forced upon them by torture and murder.


[edit on 25-6-2009 by Horus12]





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