Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Former Fundamentalist 'Debunks' Bible

page: 23
43
<< 20  21  22    24  25 >>

log in

join

posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 05:59 PM
link   


but the Holy Spirit has shown me things no book could ever show me.

reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


Could you give some examples of what you've been shown? It would be good to share such knowledge, yes?

I disagree that Chaos is a necessary part of our existance. When mankind walked with God before our Disobedience we were given Dominion to control our environment and there was no Death. The Chaos we presently witness in this Fallen world is a Penalty for our Disobedience and will be lifted by God in His time. Of course you know these things from your studies of the Bible.




posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 07:05 PM
link   
reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar
 


I could write a few books on the last few years of my life I do believe. I try to share my experience via the forum for others to mabey catch a glimpse of it. I pretty much have every experience in one posts or another from my son having a light being come to him at age 5 to my mothers experience of seeing Jesus in a NDE (along with many other things)...my family seems to attract things like this. We are not nor have ever been a prideful family..we are very humble people just trying to do right in the world. I dont think my awakening would of happened without several souls being involved.


It has been a personal relation and I am sure that we are all to seek this. I think ones age may have something to do with when one is ready or not...for humbleness was the key. There were many attachments I clinged to such as preconceived ideas and these were the first thing the Spirit challenged me on. Walking me through thoughts of Jesus and what his spirit learned in that life was the brake through for me to be more open. I finally knew I really knew nothing...and asked to be shown. Everything from dreams to people in my life was giving me a synchronicity that went deeper if I faced the awareness. I do believe I have been shown through dreams about reincarnation and the lesson of offering this life through death...for love of others as your own self. You are more then welcome to look through past threads and posts...I do try my best to share it all.

There have been to many phenomenons that a book or science can not explain for me. What started it all was me reaching out to Jesus for guidance. Learning how to cleanse my thoughts and body...as a instrument for the Spirit. I strongly believe in fasting, forgiving and loving.

Alot of what I was shown was through my study time in the books. I cant explain it no other way except it was like a inner guidance. Certain words would stand out to me...certain names, cultures, languages, lands, people, beliefs....one would explain the other....I would spend hours (almost 2 whole years) in just personal studies with this inner light...to what I finally excepted as the Holy Spirit that is within all things of life. I had thought I understood so much...but I didnt. I had accepted things blindly...and this was wear I shouldnt of sold God short on how Thee made us and how we already had everything we needed. I accepted so many things that were not so. And this took time...for adjusting and coping. It was not easy. There were times that were beautiful yes, in the moments I knew I knocked and it was answered. But the wisdom were not easy to face...having to go very deep in the self and material attachments I was not ready to face. If I wasnt ready...a ease would be felt...as if...all in good time. It was a process...and there was no hurry. Certain things had to be before another certain thing could be understood.

I cant show you though....I can only ask others to seek a relation with Thee that is open with a humbled will to understand. I believe everyone can be shown this divine nature within their own self...to know the divine nature of the one we emanated from. I learned this is something that we can learn for ourselves..the nature of Thee...and it is really more beautiful then any religion shows it to be. A humbled heart....a honest humbled heart. I learned that I should of never doubted my right to Thee...my connection to Thee. It was waiting there all this time. The sadness that I felt when I realized how much we have wronged the image of Thee and this was the hardest part to face and forgive others and myself for.

I never experienced any anger, jealousy (even when my mind wasnt sure and was sifting through information)...it was always patients, mercy and grace that I received. It was and is a nurturing. We have both natures in us...we are of Earth (flesh) and we are of God (spirit). The nature of flesh is very different and matches better with the OT image of God. The nature of spirit was always consistent, never changing, pure, Holy and Divine. What makes something divine? Can divinity also be unrighteous and dark? Can God be jealous and come to anger?

These are good questions to start with...and I do say...this is a journey, not a one day meditation. How do I know it will work for others? Well so far...Im seeing the Spirit show my mother now...many things.

But long story short...I do tell..I do share...it was a prt of the process as well...being willing to share things and tell others. Preparing for others not listening and not seeing and learning why this was so. I think my will for others is what also allowed the process to begin...I dedicated my life in a way that Thee could use me. It was 2 weeks after that dedication my mother had her experience...there I sat in the hospital room watching her for 9 hours telling me and my father about Jesus, angels, and many many things. We made videos to share this with others.

I can tell you but it gives no justice until you feel it yourself, through the Holy Spirit. The humbled seeker knows if the heart is right and pure...and Thee knows if we come for the right or wrong reasons when we are seeking Thee.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 09:09 PM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


I'm not seeing where your beliefs deviate from Biblical Truth. Is it your view of Jesus and His personal Sacrifice that differs from the Biblical version? Please spell out very clearly for me where you think the Bible is in error.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 09:38 PM
link   
reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar
 


The Bible truly tells what these men believed that wrote the words. I believe that many in the OT thought they were receiving a message of good seed, but wasnt always so.

I dont accept a name for God...I have found Thee to be nameless. A name only limits Thee. We loose the image of 'Holy' as soon as we start to use human language to describe Thee. I dont see a sacrifice needed so I also then get red flags in the OT about the god that required blood letting and savored it at that. Much of my studies were in the OT because that is where my spirit stirred the most. I went from years of accepting the understanding of sacrifice as a 'requirement' to knowing these men were lost in the understanding of the Supreme Fathers nature. This mislead them in considering the future that they layed about prophecies of a chosen land. Thee doesnt need or want any land. I use the OT to discern the natures that I feel....flesh and spirit.

I know...long story short please!

I dont accept all of the OT stories as stories of this Divine One I have come to feel in my life. I dont agree with the Bible saying to not use ones own reasoning and understanding. For we are to seek. I dont think the stories of a angry god are correct in relation to Thee. I see much blood shed in a name of god and this is the most saddest feeling of my spirit. God is about life....God needs no death for any reason. God is about order...nature gives us order. Many keys that can awaken a soul are forbidden in the Bible. People should not fear Thee. Satan is misconceived entirely also...in opinion...we all have our adversaries...they are the temptations of being 'individuals' and of the 'environment'. Again...it is a natural process..for humans to discern things all through out life. Our brain is a major processing center that has a intuition from its past experiences preparing for future experiences.

I think Jesus is misunderstood and tied to a book that wasnt really meant for him...but yet....for me, it all worked out perfectly. If I wouldnt of had both books...OT and NT....I would of not worried about the differences I saw, I might not of discovered what I have.

Its understandable really...to me...why some of those men in the OT would of thought the things they did. Religions evolve...is what I learned in the OT and the NT together. But yet..it wasnt all bad after all...The Holy One was still in there...woven like a beautiful ribbon, placing the image of a unconditional love and a nature that showed perfection in every way.

I think the world is meant to be just the way it is...and I think its more like God is waiting on us...not us waiting on God. This is something my spirit seems feel right with, and I have decided to follow that. I think its very wrong misconception of Gods nature that Thee needs a blood sacrifice or every needed that from us. But yet the wisdom is ever so deep about that offering of life.



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 12:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by Shadowflux
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


Actually, gnosticism is much older than freemasonry, unless you're referring to the Masonic concept that they go back to ancient Egypt.

Allow me to....illuminate the subject ( i couldn't resist, sorry)


Gnosticism (Greek: γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) refers to diverse, syncretistic religious movements in antiquity consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god, the demiurge; this being is frequently identified with the Abrahamic god, and is contrasted with a superior entity, referred to by several terms including Pleroma and Godhead[1]. Depictions of the demiurge - the term originates with Plato's Timaeus[2] - vary from being as an embodiment of evil, to being merely imperfect and as benevolent as its inadequacy permits. Thus, broadly speaking, Gnosticism was a dualistic religion, influenced by and influencing Hellenic philosophy, Judaism (see Notzrim), and Christianity


And as to it's age:


Whereas formerly Gnosticism was considered by some a heretical branch of Christianity, it now seems clear that traces of Gnostic systems can be discerned some centuries before the Christian Era. [10] Gnostic sects may have existed earlier than the First Century BCE, thus predating the birth of Jesus.[11] The movement spread in areas controlled by the Roman Empire and Arian Goths (see Huneric), and the Persian Empire; it continued to develop in the Mediterranean and Middle East before and during the Second Century and Third Centuries. Conversion to Islam and the Albigensian Crusade (1209–1229) greatly reduced the remaining number of Gnostics throughout the Middle Ages, though a few isolated communities continue to exist to the present.


That is all from our favorite free encyclopedia.

Jealous of what? People worshiping the true, perfect and divine God perhaps?


Don't be so quick to dismiss.


I take no offense at all. However it is obviously not worth trying to reason with you. Other than to say that I know there are many sources other than wickedpedia that teach what you believe, and obviously anything that tries to make the God of the bible out to be the devil and satan to be the good guy is serioulsy deluded not to mention believing in evil and wickedness personified.

God said he was a jealous God and to have no have no other Gods before Him because it is in our best interests as human beings to do so, otherwise one ends up worshipping satan and thinking he is God. I do not say that satan appears as an angel of Light, God does. God wrote the bible that has been irrefuteably proven by Ivan Panin via bible numerics. Look into it some time, and I mean get a hold of some of his work before you discount it because of what you see written on wickepedia or any other internet site. His findings are astounding, and allow any candid open mind the opportunity to look right into and see the facts as facts.

The bible is the authority on all of these issues, that is why God allowed one man, Ivan Panin, to prove that the bible was written and given to us by God, and his work will enjoy a massive revival in the not to distant future and it will lead many who are genuinely seeking the truth to find the truth that the bible is the very word of the creator of the universe, and if this can not be satisfactorily proven (which it has been) then no one need believe a word of it.

The bible has been scientificallly proven, mathmatically proven archeologically proven, atsronomologically proven, biologically proven and on and on it goes. It is with out doubt irrefuteably proven to be the inspired word of a superior supernatural mind. Infallible? Oh yes in deed.






[edit on 21-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 12:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by HimWhoHathAnEar
 


The Bible truly tells what these men believed that wrote the words. I believe that many in the OT thought they were receiving a message of good seed, but wasnt always so.

I dont accept a name for God...I have found Thee to be nameless. A name only limits Thee. We loose the image of 'Holy' as soon as we start to use human language to describe Thee. I dont see a sacrifice needed so I also then get red flags in the OT about the god that required blood letting and savored it at that. Much of my studies were in the OT because that is where my spirit stirred the most. I went from years of accepting the understanding of sacrifice as a 'requirement' to knowing these men were lost in the understanding of the Supreme Fathers nature. This mislead them in considering the future that they layed about prophecies of a chosen land. Thee doesnt need or want any land. I use the OT to discern the natures that I feel....flesh and spirit.

I know...long story short please!

I dont accept all of the OT stories as stories of this Divine One I have come to feel in my life. I dont agree with the Bible saying to not use ones own reasoning and understanding. For we are to seek. I dont think the stories of a angry god are correct in relation to Thee. I see much blood shed in a name of god and this is the most saddest feeling of my spirit. God is about life....God needs no death for any reason. God is about order...nature gives us order. Many keys that can awaken a soul are forbidden in the Bible. People should not fear Thee. Satan is misconceived entirely also...in opinion...we all have our adversaries...they are the temptations of being 'individuals' and of the 'environment'. Again...it is a natural process..for humans to discern things all through out life. Our brain is a major processing center that has a intuition from its past experiences preparing for future experiences.

I think Jesus is misunderstood and tied to a book that wasnt really meant for him...but yet....for me, it all worked out perfectly. If I wouldnt of had both books...OT and NT....I would of not worried about the differences I saw, I might not of discovered what I have.

Its understandable really...to me...why some of those men in the OT would of thought the things they did. Religions evolve...is what I learned in the OT and the NT together. But yet..it wasnt all bad after all...The Holy One was still in there...woven like a beautiful ribbon, placing the image of a unconditional love and a nature that showed perfection in every way.

I think the world is meant to be just the way it is...and I think its more like God is waiting on us...not us waiting on God. This is something my spirit seems feel right with, and I have decided to follow that. I think its very wrong misconception of Gods nature that Thee needs a blood sacrifice or every needed that from us. But yet the wisdom is ever so deep about that fe.


What are you on about? You're calling God "Thee", if he doesnt need a name, then why "Thee"? For crying out loud man...I dispair. It his been mathmatically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that "those men" who wrote the bible where guided by the very hand of God, there is one in a billion x one billion, billions chance that He didnt, IE no Chance.

Wake up and see the facts that are available to any true seeker of the truth. Believe what you like and feel what you like but stop stating it as a fact please. God gave us words to understand him because humans communicate with words. And these words have his finger print all over them. The greek and hebrew use letters for numbers, meaning every letter is a number, Ivan Panin a Famous mathmatician, discovered the intricate mathmatical pattern through out scripture, the same pattern that is in all of his creation. FACT!




[edit on 21-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 02:50 AM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 



I dont accept a name for God...I have found Thee to be nameless. A name only limits Thee. We loose the image of 'Holy' as soon as we start to use human language to describe Thee.

So he needs no name and yet you refer to him as 'thee, supreme father, divine one, and god. You seem to be violating your own rule there.




. I dont see a sacrifice needed so I also then get red flags in the OT about the god that required blood letting and savored it at that.

Again, what YOU see as necessary has no bearing on what God see's as necessary. The concept of Sacrifice runs from Abraham and Isaac to God and Christ for a reason. Wake up! And as far as savoring it, that's your spin, he was pointing the way to our redemption and yet you try to color it ugly.



God is about order...nature gives us order.

Weren't you just saying that chaos is natural?



Satan is misconceived entirely also.

What else needs to be said about your affiliations?



I think Jesus is misunderstood and tied to a book that wasnt really meant for him

Here's where you really show yourself. Jesus tied to the Bible? Doesn't make sense does it?



. If I wouldnt of had both books...OT and NT....I would of not worried about the differences I saw, I might not of discovered what I have.

Considering that both these books are what comprises the Bible, I would say there's some cognitive dissonance going on in your mind. If you actually took the time to learn about the Bible you would come to understand that it all ties together quite perfectly.



Religions evolve.

Religions may, but the Truth does not. You're trying to pit the Old Testament against the New is pointless, they are in perfect harmony, probably why they are known collectively as 'The Bible".



I think its very wrong misconception of Gods nature that Thee needs a blood sacrifice or every needed that from us.

The misconception is yours. We couldn't fulfill it if we wanted to. He fulfilled it!

Do us all a favor and actually study the Bible. This pathetic attempt at writing a book report from what you read on the cover is annoying at best.



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 05:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by orangetom1999
reply to post by Welfhard
 


Welfhard,

Think about this quote of yours...


If a man gives up is rational and inquisitive mind then he'll never understand anything let alone know truth.


Be very careful what you think is a rational and inquisitive mind. Notice how rational Shadowflux appears in their statements ...until one learns a bit of history which has not totally been covered up and hidden...especially about the other religions out there.

I will show you this here about rational thinking by quoting you..


much of the old testament is scientifically wrong and some of the characters or fables are noticeably lifted from older religions.


Why would someone who is into rational thinking and analytic ability ..use science to pass judgement on a book of Faith. The book is not intended to be a scientific treatise but one of Faith. Now that doesnt make good nonsense or even logic. One has to go to school to get this silly. Thinking people are not this silly.

One could even go so far as to say...by the rationale of some posters ...that they were attempting to pass science off as the new religion. Now that doesnt even make good nonsense. It even seems rationale until one thinks it through. Ive seen lawyers use this kind of thinking to confuse peoples. It looks good until one thinks it through. In the Bible..the Pharisees used this same tack unitl one catches on and thinks it through. It too doesnt make good nonsense...once you know how to spot the pattern of nonsense attempting to pass or default through as the moral/ethical high ground.

The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It is a book to the Faithful.
Science is not a religion...complete with priesthood.

Thanks,
Orangetom


"Why would someone who is into rational thinking and analytic ability ..use science to pass judgement on a book of Faith?"

Why? Why, indeed. I don't know, perhaps because someone "who is into rational thinking and analytic ability" is trying to determine the veracity and accuracy of this book of faith?!
To say that one cannot use Science as a guide of judgement on a book of faith because it's a book of faith is a cop-out. It used to be that the church and the congregation believed exactly what the book said, man was created along with the earth and everything else over a six day period; original sin; Noah; King Solomon and all the other tripe, and anyone who said anything that even slightly disagreed with this mindset would be labelled a heretic, sent into exile, house arrest or worse, tortured and executed. We learnt that the earth was round, the planets - us included - were in a heliocentric solar system, the earth is 4-odd billion years old, evolution, etc, and now they're considered separate matters and science can't be used to judge a book and it's veracity like it's off limits or something. How bloody weak is that! If God had anything to do with the "inspiration" of the authorship of the bible, it stands to reason that he'd design this book to conform with his single great work - reality - and if not, he's just a bloody twat.
No, if the bible is to be considered a historical record, or useful in any other regard, it must conform with reality and not make claims like all animals are descended from a gathering on an Ark - what tosh! How bout some possible claims? Or better yet, some plausible claims? Make no mistake, no creation myth, ever, does reality justice, the real thing is so much grander. God let the universe go on for billions of years before we came along, it's obvious that god had great patience, letting the universe play out in just the right way instead of just speaking a planet and a sun and a moon and life into existence in one go - the book suggests he did it in 6 days, even it thinks god took his time. The Cosmos is more beautiful, mysterious and more amazing than any bronze-age privative could possibly imagine - even today with all our knowledge and observations and Science, we're still just getting to grips with it.

But the wonderful thing about science is that it does not accept faith for anything, Science is effectively the antithesis of faith. Faith is defined as belief without evidence. Science won't allow any conclusions to be made without adequate evidence. Science leads to technology, the fruits of rationality and free inquiry. Faith is something binds the mind because it's not based on reality. You see, even if science did become a religion or was treated as one by some, it would be a better religion than any other - it's progressive and self correcting.

One cannot be faithful and rational at the same time, they are opposing mind sets.



[edit on 21-6-2009 by Welfhard]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 09:37 AM
link   
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


We could go back and forth with our thoughts but its not an issue with me that you take the book as Gods words.

But I will continue to be a voice...saying the same things. Gods nature is misunderstood.

Your reasons for comments about my thoughts on the OT are not strong...Im sure you realise that what you are arguing is something for a book written by man about some great spiritual histories. You can continue to beleive that God chose a people (seperatation) and I will continue to believe God never would of acted in such a way. God is about unity.

Its a nature thing...I repeat that alot. I in no way fear I am mislead and I am fine with comments. You can assume I dont understand that book...but I know it is the greatest but yet most dangerous book . If can form one mind set of a dictating god who works through force and in the other it forms a merciful god who works through patients.

My best to you and yours
LV



[edit on 21-6-2009 by LeoVirgo]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 11:15 AM
link   
reply to post by Welfhard
 


Welfhard,

Think this through ..carefully.


Why? Why, indeed. I don't know, perhaps because someone "who is into rational thinking and analytic ability" is trying to determine the veracity and accuracy of this book of faith?!


THink carefully about what one believes...(faith) is rational, logical, reasonable. This can only be done with a view to replacing the existing faith with a new paradigm...a new template. This new template is science for many. Science is to be the new religious template.

Is Science to be the new faith??


But the wonderful thing about science is that it does not accept faith for anything, Science is effectively the antithesis of faith.


LOL LOL LOL..by your posts...you could have fooled me here ..alot of other posters as well.


Science won't allow any conclusions to be made without adequate evidence.


Think seriously about what you are posting here. All the drivel you posted above my last quote of yours.

So if science knows all that drivel you are posting above the last quote and how it was done...they are in the buisness of doing so themselves ...without God..they are making a universe?? No reputable scientist or engineer goes on theory as fact without trying it out to see if it works. They are under dicipline. They will build and construct mockups et al...and then try the real thing to a satisfactory conclusion...to see if it in fact works..not in theory....but in fact. Where is the man made universe??? Made by science to show that it works?? Otherwise it is just Faith. Understand now?? Faith ..complete with priesthood.

Science is not my religion...Welfhard. I am a nuclear fueler...but science is not my religion or priesthood. Some of us out here know the difference.

I live right next to Langley Air Force base where the new F 22 stealth fighters are based...lots of science and technology goes into them. But I dont worship the science as the cats meow. Right next to Langley Air Force Base is NASA Langley Research Center. Lots of Moon Rocks to be found in this area. But I dont worship at the altar of science.

Ive been in nuclear reactors...I know how they work and how the fuel cells work. But I dont worship at the altar of this Science.

Our daily cars are the end product of years of development and scientific application..great logic and reason. But I dont worship cars or the science which put them here.
If you think about it logically and reasonably ...another religion called politics is about to put an end to the automobile and the science of the automobile as we know it. It is being ecliipsed by another religion called Politics.

The religion of politics is about to put an end to or change much of what we know. I'm afraid Welfhard ....much of this political religion is going to put an end to your sacred science as well. And those of us capable of the dicipline of observation, logic, reason, and rationalty, know that politics is filled with the very zealous and devoutly faithful.

Oh..by the way...this new science of enviornmentalism combined with the religion of politics is putting an end to years of farming in California...by stopping water flow in Government promised and engineered irrigation projects developed in the 1960s to irrigate the San Joaquin Valley to make these fruit and vegtable farms productive. Now thanks to the science/faith of enviornmentalism/politics these farms are going desolate as the water is cut off to protect some smelt fish. Farms are closing down ..people are going without jobs and the price of food on the grocery shelves is going to rise dramatically. Food will have to be imported from abroad. Self Sufficience in this food arena will be a thing of the past.
This is what reason, logic, and faith have come to Welflhard.


You see, even if science did become a religion or was treated as one by some, it would be a better religion than any other - it's progressive and self correcting.

One cannot be faithful and rational at the same time, they are opposing mind sets.


You are contradicting yourself here. You need more practice and dicipline.
Also thank you for confirming my statement that science is to be the new religion or religious template.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 11:30 AM
link   
reply to post by LeoVirgo
 


LeoVirgo,

This word..supreme father.


knowing these men were lost in the understanding of the Supreme Fathers nature.


When years ago I saw a video of George Bush making a statement about his religious beliefs and stating that he believed in a Supreme Being...I knew immediately that he was not talking about the God of the Bible. It is the same with your Supreme Fathers nature.

Another point here for those knowledgable in the pattern of the Bible.


I dont accept all of the OT stories as stories of this Divine One


The term One is not used in the Bible to describe God. It is used in paganism and or Eastern Religions to describe their god. This is known by seroius students of the Bible. The one is a watch word ...a clue that Eastern philosophys are attempting to pass for Christianity.

Watch how this is done by people who know the pattern of operation in God's Word.


God is about unity.


This quote tells all to those versed in the pattern of operation of God's Word and the pattern of operation of the traditions of men.

God is Unity..not men or mens sense of unity. God is not "about" unity...God "is" Unity. There is a huge difference ...particularly in the results as reflected in the pages of History.

What you are doing here is describing another god and another faith.

Those of us knowledgable in counterfeits know the pattern and know what you are doing. We know from whence your faith comes...and it is not from God's Word but the traditions of men

No problem here with me on this. We are just wont to let you know that there are those of us out here who know the pattern of things in heaven and things on earth. There are those of us out here who study and look for counterfeit systems.

Keep up the good work Leo Virgo. You are doing well with it. It is perfectly logical and reasonable in a mans tradition kind of way.

Deus Meumque Jus.

god is my right or justification.

What I want is god.

Leo Virgo...give me the name of the god of this world...the god of logic and reason...of gnosis....of man's wisdom and knowledge....the god of the traditions of men.....by name please???


Thanks,
Orangetom






[edit on 21-6-2009 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 11:42 AM
link   
reply to post by orangetom1999
 

I had a much longer post here before I realised that I only need to say one thing to point out the stupidity of you mindset equating the school of science to a religion.


Is Science to be the new faith?

[Contradictory statement.]

No matter how you slice it, bring in politics all you like, Science is the study of Nature. Science explicitly demands that faith play no role in it's methodology.



Quod Gratis asseritur, Gratis negatur.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Welfhard]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 05:45 PM
link   
reply to post by Welfhard
 



Welfhard,


You see, even if science did become a religion or was treated as one by some, it would be a better religion than any other - it's progressive and self correcting.

One cannot be faithful and rational at the same time, they are opposing mind sets.


Your statement not mine. This too...


No matter how you slice it, bring in politics all you like, Science is the study of Nature. Science explicitly demands that faith play no role in it's methodology.


Faith play no role in its methodology. Science is progressive and self correcting. Hmmmm...sounds like politics to me.

You should probably poll those scientists and people/researchers of letters who questioned the "prime directive" and then found themselves unemployable and blackballed from science and academia. Yes..self correcting ..and political too.

You know there was a fellow who had a doctorate in dentistry ..and did some work in forensic dentistry. This man on the strength of his doctorate was allowed to look at the missing link fossils in France ...and study them until it was discovered that he was a Christian. Suddenly he was cut off from studying these fossils.
This was censorship and politics ..not self correcting..but protecting turf..holy ground Highlander.

This guys name is Jack Cuozzo. The reaction to a man of letters/degrees was fine until he was found to be a Christian. Very interesting reaction from science.

There are lots of educated people in countrys who have asked questions of science and education and find themselves blackballed and ostracized when making inquiries that are not approved by the Craft/Politics.

Oh..while I am at it..who funds science?? Could it be the body politic??? A religion funding science??? Think it through. Some of us have.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 06:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


We could go back and forth with our thoughts but its not an issue with me that you take the book as Gods words.

But I will continue to be a voice...saying the same things. Gods nature is misunderstood.

Your reasons for comments about my thoughts on the OT are not strong...Im sure you realise that what you are arguing is something for a book written by man about some great spiritual histories. You can continue to beleive that God chose a people (seperatation) and I will continue to believe God never would of acted in such a way. God is about unity.

Its a nature thing...I repeat that alot. I in no way fear I am mislead and I am fine with comments. You can assume I dont understand that book...but I know it is the greatest but yet most dangerous book . If can form one mind set of a dictating god who works through force and in the other it forms a merciful god who works through patients.

My best to you and yours
LV



[edit on 21-6-2009 by LeoVirgo]


Like wise, my best to you and yours too dear man.



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 06:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by orangetom1999
 

I had a much longer post here before I realised that I only need to say one thing to point out the stupidity of you mindset equating the school of science to a religion.


Is Science to be the new faith?

[Contradictory statement.]

No matter how you slice it, bring in politics all you like, Science is the study of Nature. Science explicitly demands that faith play no role in it's methodology.



Quod Gratis asseritur, Gratis negatur.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Welfhard]


In actual fact, if one where to observe the discovery of the phenomenal numeric pattern uncovered in the greek and hebrew biblical texts by Ivan Panin and some others, (as I have) one will clearly see an irrefuteable scientific and mathmatical marvel that can not be denied that a superior mind of mathmatical genius wrote the Holy Bible, to the point where faith is no longer required.

However, sadly this remarkable discovery seems to do more for the faith of believers than it does to convince unbelievers, and it broke Ivan Panins heart that even the Christian Leaders of the day, back in the early 1930s discounted his lifes work of some 50 years built upon the 40 plus years of Westcott and Hort, as unimprotant.

Suffice it to say that when light came into the world, the world loved darkness. So when unbelievers chose to ignore the facts, one is left with the only decision that is logical and rational and that is to leave them be.

However dear brothers and sisters in the faith, be encouraged that Holy Scripture is indeed irrefutebaly the words handed down by allmighty God, over 1600 hundred years in 66 (6x 11) books by 11 known scribes and 11 annonymous scribes and I and convinced that that God in His wisdom used this man Ivan Panin mightely because he knew that in the midst of the ever increasing disinformation being scattered asunder about the bible, that believers would need such overwhelming evidence in these last days so as to have their faith in His blessed word bolsterd and unshaken. And may that be the case with you until the end of your earthly days.

God Bless You all.




[edit on 21-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 10:48 PM
link   
reply to post by orangetom1999
 



There are lots of educated people in countrys who have asked questions of science and education and find themselves blackballed and ostracized when making inquiries that are not approved by the Craft/Politics.

Oh..while I am at it..who funds science?? Could it be the body politic??? A religion funding science??? Think it through. Some of us have.


You are criticising the execution of science here, which is fair, clinging to preconceived notions is a great human intellectual weakness. But Science's use and Science itself are not the same thing. What you're talking about is Science being prostituted for political ends. What's astounding is that even in it's misuse, Science is still better than any religion could ever be. Religion doesn't contribute to human advancement, that isn't it's function, and it often gets in the way. Again, faith constricts the mind.

Religion and faith are redundant.



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 11:45 PM
link   
Hi/

You mean I should abandon 2 thousand years plus, Teachings of the Fathers of the Church ~The Septuagint~ and ALLOW myself to be lost in my faith because this man, a so called 'Fundamentalist' who debunks the Bible?



St. Paul the Apostle instructed the members of the Church of Ephesus, "Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:19).
The first Christians continued in their worship the traditions of the Hebrew Temple and synagogues of praising God through singing.
Thus, the Book of Psalms became the first book of Christian hymns. St. Ignatius of Antioch, in the first years of the second century, wrote to that same Church of Ephesus, "Join yourselves, person by person, into a choir, that loving each other in harmony, and taking up the song of God together, you might with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He might hear you and know by your works that you are members of His Son."


St. Paul the Apostle instructed the members of the Church of Ephesus, "Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:19).
The first Christians continued in their worship the traditions of the Hebrew Temple and synagogues of praising God through singing.
Thus, the Book of Psalms became the first book of Christian hymns.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, in the first years of the second century, wrote to that same Church of Ephesus,
"Join yourselves, person by person, into a choir, that loving each other in harmony, and taking up the song of God together, you might with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ, so that He might hear you and know by your works that you are members of His Son."
A prayer///
Exclaim to the Lord all the earth, sing to His Name, render glory to His praise.
(Psalm 66:1-2).
Through the prayers of the Birth-giver of God, O Saviour, save us.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen.

Through the prayers of the Birth-giver of God, O Saviour, save us.

If the Early Church Fathers ,Prophets of the Old and New,had not lost their faith through torturous, horendous crimes inflicted upon them,why should I believe in what a MODERN day Fundamentalsi has to say?

Why should I believe in a legalistic and man-centered traditions of the Pharisees, or the other empty traditions filtering around during the New Testament era, against which Saint Paul warns his readers to be on guard (Colossians 2:8).
Should I then DOUBT that the Word of the Lord is void?
We read Matthew 15:3-9......... He calls the Pharisees "hypocrites" for nullifying the commandments of God through their phony traditions, and then goes on to castigate them by quoting Isaiah's prophecy,

"These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

ICXN
helen
EDIT.........WHY DID my whole post go into QUOTES?
Hopefully it's fixed!


[edit on 6/21/2009 by helen670]



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 10:05 AM
link   
reply to post by Welfhard
 



Welfhard,
You are selling yourself and the readers short out here in your provincialness.


You are criticising the execution of science here, which is fair, clinging to preconceived notions is a great human intellectual weakness. But Science's use and Science itself are not the same thing. What you're talking about is Science being prostituted for political ends. What's astounding is that even in it's misuse, Science is still better than any religion could ever be. Religion doesn't contribute to human advancement, that isn't it's function, and it often gets in the way. Again, faith constricts the mind.

Religion and faith are redundant.


Religion and science both can be sold short for the benefit of another zealous religion called politics.

As a matter of fact...religion in this country is subsidized by tax write offs in the form of 501c corporate status. This is not seperation of church and state but instead ...a church supported by tax subsidies.

Such tax subsidies give the lie to the concept of church and state seperation. The churchs and government both are in on the lie.

This template also applies to science supported by government tax supports or subsidies as well. It is designed to support both the religion of science as well as the religion of government. Thinking people know this.

I am not arguing against science here...for science and related diciplines (economics) have made the products which have bettered our lives greatly.

Science is not a relgion...it does not have a priesthood...except when it is looking for more funds.

Both Science and Religion can and are prostituted out to the other religion taking place daily in front of us...Politics.

Science is not better than any religion can or could be.


Religion doesn't contribute to human advancement, that isn't it's function, and it often gets in the way. Again, faith constricts the mind.


This is textbook politics and public school thinking. After all..who pays for public school...the religion called politics.

It was the break away from Rome begining about 1519AD By Martin Luther....which is credited with being the begining of the industrial revolution. Once certain nations broke away from the stranglehold of the Popes and Rome....within 200 years there was a progress in these areas not seen in the Roman areas..or in the Orient or in the Russias..et al. I am speaking of the lowland areas..Holland, England, Northern Germany and later the USA.

This was done by religion...Welfhard...It was the areas which broke away from Rome where we see the greatest economic religious and political progress in the world. This progress and thinking was eventually exported to here ..the USA. Where science and education were able to operate more freely than in most of Europe and Asia...the Middle East. This ..because of the lack of Romanish constraints on government and peoples. Their non Romanish government flourished and science, the arts, and thinking flourished.
This is why one needs to take a close look at the patterns of operation of varioius religions..including the religion of politics. One must know more than what is just on the surface for public consumption.
Why do you think very little actual scientific or even industrial progress came out of Central and South America...from 1519 to now..today?? Not accidental. Yet these areas have huge natural resources. Why is that Welfhard?? What progress is to be found in these countries is imported from outside them. Same thing with Russia or China.

Why is almost every vestage of science or progress in mid eastern countries ...why does it originate from outside these countries? They rely on outsiders for almost everything modern.

Why did some natoins progress...in every avenue..art, education, and the sciences ..sufficient to have progress in a short time and other natioins not progress??

These nations progressed because there was a religion and religious beliefs which put a limit on the excesses of another religion called Politics.

Once you know this fingerprint Welfhard...it is very easy to predict that as more government excesses take place here in the USA ...progress will cease and we will go towards the economies of these backwards nations of which I speak.

This is already happening in the UK...they are sliding backwards..prices are rising and shortages are happening. This is being hidden from most of us here stateside..by our whorish political media..shilling for their respective political parties.

Religion ..the properly applied relgion ...has the ability to put limits on government excesses...a trait undesired by governments looking for more power and control.
When government is restrained..even science can do its work...and not be shackled by government excesses...and prostitution. These nations tend towards producing the greatest plenty this world has ever seen.
These are not conditions created by science Welfhard..but by religion.
In this capacity religion ..the properly applied religion does indeed contribute to the advancement of civilization/human advancement.
The wrongly applied religion...and humans will go back to stagnation. This too is historically demonstratable.

There are plenty of scientists in totalitarian countries/governments. They are not free to persue science or publically beneficial works but must apply themselves to government controls. This should be obvious Welfhard.

This is a knowledge and understanding avoided nowdays in public schools funded by the religion called Politics. Think about it Welfhard.

In your zeal...you are tending to put the cart before the horse in order to support your religious beliefs.

Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 22-6-2009 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 11:16 AM
link   
"OH NOES THE WORLD IS ENDIGN!! QUICK NOHM BUILD A BOAT, STEVE GET BUILDING THE CAGESS ILL GO ROUND UP EVERY ANIMAL!!!!!!

THE EARTH IS ONLY 6000 YEARS OLD, THE DEVIL THREW ALL THOSE 65 MILLION YEAR OLD FOSSILS IN THE GROUND TO TEST OUR FAITH!!!

That fact alone, that the bibles says the earth to be 6000 years old, has been shattered thousands of times by thousands of people proving there was alot of things going on on earth, 6000,60000,600000,6000000 years ago."


The real remnant of People that are chosen to become rulers of the universe with the creator don't believe in of that carp you quoted.

I have told you guys a few dozen times.. the bibles is a DNA WAR ..the bible Never SAYS that EARTH is 6k year old either where are you getting that trash ? what a joke you guys all say you have studied the bible and find it to be rubbish.. you call God a killer because you don't understand that all of us would not be here if the races survived that had Alien/Angelic DNA.... You guys come on here saying you want to deny ignorance but you embrace it! What a joke!

You think there are talking snakes in the bible? There is not! Study your Hebrew. There was no talking snakes there was an "upright shining creature" however. Yea an "alien" to you guys oh and just so happens the whole reason we are here at ATS. But you guys don't want to see it by choice it's so obvious. Deny ignorance pffffff ROFL!

The Ark was no doubt holding animals for food and clothes and so on.. and I believe the ARK held DNA and high technology it's not at all what we thin kg.. Noah's day was the time of what we call Atlantis. They had high tech stuff.

God lead David and the children of Israel into many a battle to destroy the races that had ALIEN DNA mingled in there blood line! If you people that claim to have read the bible would actually study the Hebrew it opens up a whole new understanding. All this killing was done so that the bloodline of man was not corrupted. But the ALIENS/Angels have continued in the dirty deeds in secret through abduction now, but soon it will be in the open as in the days of Noah.

Why don't you all go read and understand based on the original Hebrew words. And you will find that the bible is a description of the conspiracy of SATAN/NWO to created his own race and control earth and all withing it. It all lines up perfectly with what most people come here to ATS and post about .. yet... we deny the bibles truth? Why because you are shallow and rely on logic and you don't dig into the bible you go into with this preconceived idea that it's full of talking snakes WHICH IT IS NOT!

It's a book documenting the DNA war between our creator and the rebel ANGELS. It's really obvious as we get closer to manipulation the DNA ourselves. I could go on and on but I know I'm wasting my time..

All I can say is if this guys is trying to claim the bible is all a fraud I can bet he is clueless to the deeper meanings of the Hebrew meaning of the words. Not only that more than likely he doesn't even believe in "beings from other worlds, and if he does he may only believe they are Aliens and not Angles. I would love to ask him about that.

Any ways I have done a good deal of homework on all this stuff. What else do you or this guy have as proof that the bible is a fraud. You produce your proofs it's a fraud and I will produce twice as many proofs that it's supernatural in nature and intent. Could there be mistakes? Perhaps? So far I've not found any.

You think that Christianity is a belief systems of rules and so forth and it's not. I'll say it one more time so it may sink in.

The believe in the son of God simply allows you to be entangled at a spiritual level and a DNA/physical level. So that you may escape out of this prison planet once the Grid comes down and the illusion of time is removed. The bible explains to us what happened and what will happen. Jesus himself told us we had it all wrong that it's not about rules it's about love. It's all about Choice and freewill. And you are rejecting your very creator by CHOICE. So God will not send you to hell as they say.. You will choose to be in a place that God's presence will be absent from. It will be a place without Love, without hope. without anything that can be described as "good". And again you are making the choice by rejecting the relationship you were created to be in from the start. But because the Aliens came along and entered most likely animal DNA in our blood line and caused us to be carnal like an animal we were separated from God by this. Get it? It's really not to hard to "get it" once you get rid of your bias , stop looking at Christians in the modern since because most of them are all screwed up too. But I'm telling you .. there is a group of people myself included that call ourselves "follower of Christ" that know the truth and have the truth in us. That being one with our creator through Yeshua is the true and ONLY way to ascended into a light being. Any other method is not allowed. I'll stop. Do you homework people. Don't be deceived by the shallow atheist trash. It's so weak and birthed in pride.. It makes me sick how self righteous they are here there atheism and agnostic stance, then they have the balls to point the finger at others. What joke.

Oh and by the way somewhere in this thread they were talking about the scripture in revelations that says not to "add to our take way from the book" It was talking about the book of revelation, not the entire bible and thats a prime example of how ignorant you all are.

I stopped posting a while back. I just get to worked up seeing the lies over and over and flippin OVER. When will you people drop you blinders and bias. The bible even describes most of us here on this forum. It even talks about we will embrace evolution and begin to worship the earth(gia anyone?).

It even gives details about the end times such as the world will be owned by corporations and it EVEN says that the DRUG companies will be in "cahoots" with the kings and leaders and get this the DRUGS they push on us through the drug companies. Is that not exact enough for you in describing the state that the world is in? I mean my GOD WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED!!!!!??????

I'm sorry i have to just stop I'm just to pissed off over the complete ignorance of so many of us that claim to be "open minded" and so on. Tell you what produce you proof



posted on Jun, 22 2009 @ 11:45 AM
link   
reply to post by orangetom1999
 


It is our flesh mind that believes God can have a name. We have to use verbal language to communicate here and this is the first thing that begins to place limits on God. What reason would God...The All of All...The One...The Monad from where all life emanates from...would need a name. All of the 'names' we place on Thee are for our understandings in trying to grasp a description of the force of life, that is holy.

Many old stories were based on something a little lower then god gaining power through a name...a sound...a substance, in which they gained godlike powers.

For my language that I use, the word 'Thee' is just what resonates with me best...trying to always be humble when I speak and use words because I know that this alone begins the misunderstandings of the greatness of our maker.

You said I talk of a new god and new faith. I am most defiantly not bringing a new god or new faith.

I am a mix of many faiths, finding the lights in them all. Gnostic believes that the OT god was the demiurge...one who only thought the was the most high ...using force with people and blood letting to gain power. These beliefs of the OT god existed and were written down and killed and died over in the days after Christs death. I dont call myself a gnostic because I use my spirit to discern from many beliefs, not just one. I am just linking this so there is clarity that I am not talking about new things.

en.wikipedia.org...

ANd faith is personal...a soul must discern something before the place faith in something. Surely people research and learn about the nature of the god they think they are believing in. I am sure there are many (I know there are because I have met many) that have a intuition in them that says...God is not jealous, wrathful, forceful or angry. But yet they believe God is the guide to living in the best way our spirit can...living for others and learning Gods own attributes...such as patients, forgiveness, grace and mercy...and love and hope. This is not a new faith.

My best to ya
LV

[edit on 22-6-2009 by LeoVirgo]






top topics



 
43
<< 20  21  22    24  25 >>

log in

join