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Former Fundamentalist 'Debunks' Bible

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posted on May, 18 2009 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by TruthSeeker8300
The point is that the God of the Holy Bible is a trinue God. And the God of the Holy Bible declares Himself to be the only God. This guy is saying a triune God wasn't taught before Christianity and that's not true. And that is the subject. So stay on subject or be quiet.


This is rather like arguing about the geography of Narnia. Just thought you should know.




posted on May, 18 2009 @ 08:38 AM
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Im a christian myself but I dont exactly hold the trinitarian view.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say there is a trinity. YEah Jesus says he and the father are one, but then says that all of us can also have that Oneness:

John 17:11 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

I just feel like he was the first one, alpha and omega, showing everyone else what we can or will eventually be.

Plus all these theological debates are pointless. Most atheists/agnostics won't change their minds from anything anyone says on here. The best thing to do is just Love your neighbor nonjudgementally.

ANd for you Christians who have Spiritual enlightenment, just rest in that state of Enlightenment. Its the greatest thing there is, the peace, the transcendent love, the now, and all those other gifts.

Arguing takes you out of that state if your not careful



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


I always found the concept of the Holy Spirit being an individual quite odd, as I have read the Old and New testaments cover-to-cover, and nowhere do I recall the Holy Spirit saying anything, or operating in a manner of it's own devising.

To me, the Holy Spirit seems to be the "hand" of God - the bit of himself that he uses to manipulate things (after all, it has to be done in some way), so I have always seen putting the hand on par with the brain that controls it somewhat strange...



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


possibly because it's female?
just guessing here.



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 10:18 AM
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I've read Ehrman's books and listened to his lectures, I like the cut of his jib.

To be honest, I fail to see how anyone who looks into the history of Christianity could remain a believer, but there we are, the world is full of people who choose to ignore the obvious.



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by blueorder

I may not be religious but I at least have the strength to realise that a secular society must borrow its morals from religion, and when it abandons this approach it must employ force to ensure order

[edit on 18-5-2009 by blueorder]


blueorder, is it possible that religion originally derived the basis for morals from secular society? At some point in the cave or village did they come to the realization that bashing each other in the head and taking the bashed one's pile was not the best path to survival? I think today we would call that "mutually assured destruction". And so I think they moved from "Yeah, now I've got everybody's stuff but here comes that damned bear again and there's just me and my rock left" to "Hey, I would prefer not trading head bashes with you as I think we'll both benefit” and not vise versa. Just my opinion, obviously I wasn't there although I'm often accused of being a rather old fart.

Some time later someone came up with written language and they decided to write the accepted rule down but the origin was long lost. And so we are left with "Do unto others", "Putting oneself in the place of another", "That which is hateful to you", just pick your religious sect and verbiage for the ethic of reciprocity. People tend to think of this as "morality" but I think it is more like a universally inherited wince point similar to cringing after watching a shortstop take a bad hop in the jewels.



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by The All Seeing I
 


Informative thread I. This is the first I'd heard of Bart Ehrman. I recently discovered another formerly religious writer, Robert M. Price. Looks like I've got some good reading ahead.



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Reply to posts by Gawdzilla and others.


Don't forget the genocide, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and arrogance.


Ironically you will find this pattern greatly increased in what are known as mostly athiest nations... Russia China, North Korea, Vietman, Cambodia et al.

Lenin/Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il & Kim Il Sung... these men were essentially gods, we refer to them as dictators (gods) with totalitarian rule (church/religion), but in shorthand... they were/are gods. Atheists don't believe in god, nor believe that they are god, so therefore to claim these demi-gods and their flock are atheists, would be folly... for the ideal citizen of these regimes posses one key ingredient that allows and maintains the house of cards to stand... blind-faith. Those who question the leader/government (god/church/bible) are incarcerated/tortured/killed (sent to hell).

[edit on 18-5-2009 by The All Seeing I]



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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- Humans, and everything else in this universe was created by one being and this being would like us to think of him, and bow down to him everyday. Imagine after making something truly monumental, beautiful and unique (like a universe, humans, even a tree) and not getting recognized for it even if you leave countless signs to be discovered, and send messengers. - brightlight



"Imagine after making something truly monumental, beautiful and unique (like a universe, humans, even a tree) and not getting recognized for it even if you leave countless signs to be discovered" and knowing the limitations of the minds of those you've made and introducing yourself personally to a mere chosen handful and expecting the rest to accept that they weren't daft or corrupt. If I were "made in his image" he would accept my reluctance to bow down. And... knowing some of the history of other imagined dieties, this one true god has shown substantiated proof equal to that of Zeus, Ishtar, Quetzalcoatl, Flying Spaghetti Monster, fill in your favorite. As you might have guessed, I've checked out of the ant farm.



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by Hemisphere
reply to post by The All Seeing I
 


Informative thread I. This is the first I'd heard of Bart Ehrman. I recently discovered another formerly religious writer, Robert M. Price. Looks like I've got some good reading ahead.


Serendipity, i haven't heard of Price... thank you for the reference. From a quick preview of his work, i see some very interesting research.




In books like The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man and Deconstructing Jesus, Price challenges Biblical literalism and argues for a more skeptical and humanistic approach to Christianity. He questions the idea of a historical Jesus; in the documentary The God Who Wasn't There, Price supports a version of the Jesus myth, suggesting that the early Christians adopted the model for the figure of Jesus from the popular Mediterranean dying-rising saviour myths of the time, such as that of Dionysus. He argues that the comparisons were known at the time, as early church father, Justin Martyr had admitted the similarities. Price suggests that Christianity simply adopted themes from the dying-rising god stories of the day and supplemented them with themes (escaping crosses, empty tombs, children being persecuted by tyrants, etc.) from the popular stories of the day in order to come up with the narratives about Christ.
...
Price runs a website, TheBibleGeek.org, that in addition to offering a number of his writings, also allows people to listen to audio recordings of a broadcast show that he runs that allows people to "ask the Bible Geek" questions that he will answer. The site also has a number of user oriented features that let people participate with him and with one another online.
...
Price is, since 1994, the editor of The Journal of Higher Criticism.

source: en.wikipedia.org...






[edit on 18-5-2009 by The All Seeing I]



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 02:56 PM
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i think this thread over looks the necessity for compassion, the need for
learning about our spiritual selves, emotion, love, because in the final wash, if there's not an omnipotent, omnipresent judge of the people, there is no justice, no love and no reason but a temporary cycle of consumption. and that simply will not do. in my view of the universe, there's a marvellous new life for the downtrodden, the weak, the mentally and physically handicapped, the abused, the impoverished and so on. although science tries hard to achieve the same goals, it cannot as it will always be manhandled by survival of the fittest theology. (and don't mean by people who generally believe in such things, i mean the movers and the shakers who believe such things, MUST, BY ORDER OF THEIR OWN PARADIGM, abuse what's abuse-able for the betterment of their own clique, their own ideology. this is the way of the world but it is not the way of GOD, so let's not wish perpetual nothing on everyone, mmkay?



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by undo
i think this thread over looks the necessity for compassion, the need for
learning about our spiritual selves, emotion, love, because in the final wash, if there's not an omnipotent, omnipresent judge of the people, there is no justice, no love and no reason but a temporary cycle of consumption. and that simply will not do. in my view of the universe, there's a marvellous new life for the downtrodden, the weak, the mentally and physically handicapped, the abused, the impoverished and so on. although science tries hard to achieve the same goals, it cannot as it will always be manhandled by survival of the fittest theology. (and don't mean by people who generally believe in such things, i mean the movers and the shakers who believe such things, MUST, BY ORDER OF THEIR OWN PARADIGM, abuse what's abuse-able for the betterment of their own clique, their own ideology. this is the way of the world but it is not the way of GOD, so let's not wish perpetual nothing on everyone, mmkay?


You are right, there is no justice, and all the wishful thinking in the world will make it so.

You are alone in a universe that cares for you not a bit, that will exist long after your bones are dust and your memory is void.

It may not be what you want, and "simply will not do", but all of human endeavour has shown it to be so, and thus your options are to continue pretending, or accept it and just live your life in a way that satisfies you alone, because ultimately there is nothing else.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by The Last Man on Earth]



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


couldn't disagree more and wouldn't agree to the fate such a scenario would leave trillions of people over the long years of human history. nope. care too much about people to agree.



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


couldn't disagree more and wouldn't agree to the fate such a scenario would leave trillions of people over the long years of human history. nope. care too much about people to agree.


I think you are just too afraid to look facts in the face. It isn't about caring - I care about plenty of people, very much so. But that doesn't change the fact that it simply is no evidence at all for any of it. And the further we advance, the more and more your god becomes the god of the gaps.

I would personally love nothing more than to believe the universe isn't as cold and forbidding as it is.




Is this creature really made in the image of your god? Really?



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


there's no evidence as far as you're concerned. but you aren't me, and i'm not you. for me, there's evidence. in addition, i don't think the way things have been described thus far, allows for wastefulness on an universal scale.

if my mom wasn't preserved in the hereafter, all that knowledge and wisdom would be lost. no, we are here for a purpose. we may not all agree on what that purpose is, but there's a method to the seeming madness and it goes beyond the "stark" reality of atheism



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 07:12 PM
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btw, my dogs appear to have silent conversations with each other. i'm beginning to think they are alot smarter than we have been lead to believe
just that they don't have the necessary appendages to perform certain tasks and as a result, we assume this means they aren't as intelligent as say, a chimpanzee, but uh, i think there's inaudible languages between some animal species. maybe it's all scent transmitted! that would make sense (a pun!)



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by undo
if my mom wasn't preserved in the hereafter, all that knowledge and wisdom would be lost. no, we are here for a purpose. we may not all agree on what that purpose is, but there's a method to the seeming madness and it goes beyond the "stark" reality of atheism


You percieve this godless, uncaring universe to be madness? I disagree, I think there is something harmonic and cosmically humbling about contemplating all that is.



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 08:44 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


I am sorry I was working on a new thread and couldn't get back here.

I am not trying to avoid answering your questions. I thought I had. Some of my answers are in other threads that I have done.

Let me know what you feel I haven't answered and I will be glad to try.

Otherwise, here are some threads that may answer your questions easier then me attempting to do so in 100 words or less.

Is the Bible Part of a Great Conspiracy

Have Christians Been Duped?

Is God Cruel or Just Misunderstood?

And others.

Take what resonates with you (if any) and leave the rest.

Thanks!



[edit on 18-5-2009 by MatrixProphet]



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by undo
i think this thread over looks the necessity for compassion, the need for
learning about our spiritual selves, emotion, love, because in the final wash, if there's not an omnipotent, omnipresent judge of the people, there is no justice, no love and no reason but a temporary cycle of consumption. and that simply will not do. in my view of the universe, there's a marvellous new life for the downtrodden, the weak, the mentally and physically handicapped, the abused, the impoverished and so on. although science tries hard to achieve the same goals, it cannot as it will always be manhandled by survival of the fittest theology. (and don't mean by people who generally believe in such things, i mean the movers and the shakers who believe such things, MUST, BY ORDER OF THEIR OWN PARADIGM, abuse what's abuse-able for the betterment of their own clique, their own ideology. this is the way of the world but it is not the way of GOD, so let's not wish perpetual nothing on everyone, mmkay?


Hi undo. I am an atheist although I prefer secular humanist. I can't and likely will never understand "perpetual nothing" but I imagine perpetual torment is a far worse experience.

If a god were the only source of compassion in the world there would be no compassion to my thinking. Since concluding that there is no god I have taken on even more responsibility for the inequity I see around me. I am more sensitive to those not receiving their fair share and I have challenged myself to do more for those within the range of my influence. I do many of the same things now that I did for 50 years as a practicing Catholic. I have simply dispensed with the Sunday calisthenics and the idle or should I say idol threats. See how I did that? I continue to live a mostly Christian life without believing in god. Many of the ideas promoted by the mythical Jesus, 2000 years ago, were not new at that time and continue to be accepted by people of conscience.

The promise of a better next life has kept people from rising up and revolting against oppression. There are those researching the possibility that the Romans, either through the Piso family or through Flavius Josephus, a Jewish defector and adopted member of the Roman imperial family, authored the New Testament in order to hijack the Jewish scriptures. By doing so they effectively changed the Jewish messiah from a warrior king, to one that was weak, submissive and ruled in another realm. It would then be easy to convince early Christians to submit, pay taxes and never take up arms against the Roman aristocracy as violence, even against an enemy, would cost them in the next life. And so “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” worked like a charm. The Caesars received taxes and earthly submission and God received what was left. You know, your soul, your prayers and anything intangible.

How many billions have submitted to tyranny for the promise of a better life in the next life? Atheists are not necessarily bad people. Bad people are bad people. You are challenging yourself posting here and that's to be admired. We all have views of the universe and the only way my view improves is if I take action to improve it. I encourage you, even with our differing beliefs, to do the same.


[edit on 18-5-2009 by Hemisphere]



posted on May, 18 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


Thank you dominicus...

Great points all around...



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