Former Fundamentalist 'Debunks' Bible

reply to post by Welfhard


Your post was a perfect example of entirely left brain thinking leaving out any possible right brain intervention.

Yes, in a perfect linear world there would be no variables, but since this is not the case, we need to use our left brains to interpret some things that are not quantifiable/measurable within set standards.

In the abstract world math changes. It is all part of the quantum physics world. Einstein is a good one to refer to. He was fascinated by this.
We get into parallel universes, holographic worlds, different dimensions, etc.

reply to post by badmedia

I find that many times the bible contains both sides/ways of things, and it is taken as one.

I think the vague, reading between the lines, interpreting as every individual wishes is a far cry from this. This would be a much more logical assertion. This I can agree with, but this does not relate to the topic of the bible taking from other religions, which is why we are having the other discussion.

The bible and things like it are merely expressions of understanding.

But where is this stated in the bible? Where is it claimed that God expresses this or his prophets? This just sounds like another opinion, perhaps derived from ones own interpretation of the text and not the text itself.

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Do you like mystery novels?

I work in human behavior or behavioral science. Asking questions draws the person out. Sorry!!

Again you avoid on topic questions. If you don’t answer my questions then I can’t have a discussion with you. You seem inclined to change the subject when you’re not sure how to approach it.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


What I said is the simplest, most reasonable explanation I can give. It also appears most likely because it requires the least amount of assumptions.

I'm sorry if you do not like it, but the mind can fabricate every single part of the religious experience.

reply to post by Welfhard

I'm sorry if you do not like it, but the mind can fabricate every single part of the religious experience.

Says who? Sounds like 'Dawkins.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Welfhard

 

I'm sorry if you do not like it, but the mind can fabricate every single part of the religious experience.

Says who? Sounds like 'Dawkins.

Says anyone who has the faintest idea of what the mind can do.

I highly suggest you look into a entertainer named Derren Brown. He exploits psychology to turn randoms on the street into complete puppets (with consent) to demonstrate to them and to the audience how mind tricks us every single day.

to be honest, i believe the old testament does have a problem. i believe the accounts of our creation and subsequent events are based on the activities of 2 different god-beings: Enlil and Enki, who are combined into the same god-being in the first 5 books of the bible (due to the god word LIL being turned into an one size fits all word)

my theory goes like this:

enlil created us as spirits (we were made in his image and he's a spirit being)
later, enki created a flesh container to house/entrap our spirits. this was the fall of man. enlil is the biblical jehovah and enki is the biblical serpent in the garden. this explains the dichotomy between the spirit and the flesh, described in several places in new and old testaments.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by undo]

reply to post by undo

this explains the dichotomy between the spirit and the flesh, described in several places in new and old testaments.

That's an interesting theory, at least it would explain the "devil" better and make his existence less pointless.

Originally posted by Miraj

Yeah it is actually. I hold some belief that the decline in religion is somewhat caused by literacy. Obviously this isn't the case with a religion such as Judaism or Islam (Where they HAVE to read, recite, and remember their texts)

I actually like the bible. Sometimes it's fun to read, because of the great stories. But to me its like a book that contains stories of greek mythology.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Miraj]

I don't think religion is in decline, the spiritual desire and need with humans will always be filled in some manner, Communism could not stamp it out in Russia despite oppressing and massacring priests, muslims etc and destroying churches- same goes for China which is experiencing an explosion in Christian belief.

Read a book last year which said literal interpretation of the bible is a modern phenomenon and it was traditionally, and MEANT to be a guide for living and understanding, not a science book of how things happen

Originally posted by undo
to be honest, i believe the old testament does have a problem. i believe the accounts of our creation and subsequent events are based on the activities of 2 different god-beings: Enlil and Enki, who are combined into the same god-being in the first 5 books of the bible (due to the god word LIL being turned into an one size fits all word)

my theory goes like this:

enlil created us as spirits (we were made in his image and he's a spirit being)
later, enki created a flesh container to house/entrap our spirits. this was the fall of man. enlil is the biblical jehovah and enki is the biblical serpent in the garden. this explains the dichotomy between the spirit and the flesh, described in several places in new and old testaments.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by undo]

I think you should look at it as you would Grim's Fairytales. It isn't real, has no basis in reality and if you have to start reaching, then it's time to give it up and look facts in the face.

Much as MatrixProphet should. I've never heard such rubbish. But then I guess I'm merely a "left brain thinker".

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
I think you should look at it as you would Grim's Fairytales. It isn't real, has no basis in reality and if you have to start reaching, then it's time to give it up and look facts in the face.

Much as MatrixProphet should. I've never heard such rubbish. But then I guess I'm merely a "left brain thinker".

Just as an aside, for those that really believe in no God (not afterlife, no spiritual dimension) - just sheer relentless darwinism and the physical being, the "morals" are not a relevant concept, other than a tool to keep people/society in control- ie, there is nothing inherently wrong with randomly killing someone, other than it not being helpful for a stable society?

reply to post by blueorder

there is nothing inherently wrong with randomly killing someone, other than it not being helpful for a stable society?

That's not the way atheist think, they believe in treating your fellow man the way you wish to be treated, this is basic stuff. There are plenty of religious nuts who kill people, fear of God doesn't stop them, while there are plenty of atheist who could not hurt a fly.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by blueorder

 

there is nothing inherently wrong with randomly killing someone, other than it not being helpful for a stable society?

That's not the way atheist think, they believe in treating your fellow man the way you wish to be treated, this is basic stuff. There are plenty of religious nuts who kill people, fear of God doesn't stop them, while there are plenty of atheist who could not hurt a fly.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Thank you thank you thank you!

What scares me most are the religious types who actually put this argument across - like fear of God is the only reason they don't go around killing people! And they think atheists lack morality!

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
That's not the way atheist think, they believe in treating your fellow man the way you wish to be treated, this is basic stuff. There are plenty of religious nuts who kill people, fear of God doesn't stop them, while there are plenty of atheist who could not hurt a fly.

Yes, I know it is basic stuff, but it does not answer the point "they believe in treating your fellow man the way you wish to be treated"- but that does not answer the point. Why should they "believe" that, if there nothing other than the physical, then there is nothing inherently wrong with it other than it disrupting a stable society?

Your last point is also true, because this is the land of the man and nothing will produce perfection, we are all inherently flawed- but morals for those without faith are just abstract concepts with no relevance for the physical world other than for stability

[edit on 18-5-2009 by blueorder]

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth

Thank you thank you thank you!

What scares me most are the religious types who actually put this argument across - like fear of God is the only reason they don't go around killing people! And they think atheists lack morality!

I am not religious- I live a life that would not be acceptable in most churches, you miss the point.


If you think the physical is all there is, then morals, for example, thinking murder is bad, has no real meaning other than if you believe in a stable society.

Explain to me why an atheist has morals about randomly murdering someone, apart from it affecting the stability of society?

I may not be religious but I at least have the strength to realise that a secular society must borrow its morals from religion, and when it abandons this approach it must employ force to ensure order

[edit on 18-5-2009 by blueorder]

reply to post by blueorder

Why should they "believe" that

Because they are human, and humans have the ability to feel empathy. That and some civilized teachings is all it takes. Most people who don't want to harm anyone don't wish to because they simply do not desire to, it is not something that is of interest to them and they see it as wrong because they are able to feel what that person may feel, they understand that it is not their place to interfere with another's life.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
Because they are human, and humans have the ability to feel empathy.

empathy does not necessarily imply compassion or any notion of being "wrong"

That and some civilized teachings is all it takes.

"civilized" teachings, whatever that may be, if it is secular and has no spiritual/religious input, will not be able to "moralise" murder for example, other than societal problem which would cause instability

Most people who don't want to harm anyone don't wish to because they simply do not desire to, it is not something that is of interest to them

I did not ask why most people do not do it- a pretty major reason would be going to jail, execution etc

and they see it as wrong because they are able to feel what that person may feel, they understand that it is not their place to interfere with another's life.

"wrong" in any sense other than legal, has no meaning for someone who is a relentless darwinist

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
Because they are human, and humans have the ability to feel empathy.

empathy does not necessarily imply compassion or any notion of being "wrong"

That and some civilized teachings is all it takes.

"civilized" teachings, whatever that may be, if it is secular and has no spiritual/religious input, will not be able to "moralise" murder for example, other than societal problem which would cause instability

Most people who don't want to harm anyone don't wish to because they simply do not desire to, it is not something that is of interest to them

I did not ask why most people do not do it- a pretty major reason would be going to jail, execution etc

and they see it as wrong because they are able to feel what that person may feel, they understand that it is not their place to interfere with another's life.

"wrong" in any sense other than legal, has no meaning for someone who is a relentless darwinist

It seems to me that the only relentless Darwinists exist in the heads of the religiously-minded.

She gave you perfectly good reasons, which you did not accept. It isn't that jail holds little appeal, its that people have a concience, and do not wish to actually go around killing each other. That's it.

It goes back to tribal structures, and how each individual was essential to the surivival of the tribe, if you want to be a Darwinist about it.

But ultimately, you scare me. If God and jail are the only things that stop you killing...please seek help.

reply to post by blueorder

empathy does not necessarily imply compassion or any notion of being "wrong"

Empathy is understanding, most humans experience it, most atheist and religious people experience that feeling of understanding.

if it is secular and has no spiritual/religious input, will not be able to "moralise" murder for example

That’s simply not true, it’s a false assumption. You do not have to believe in religion to believe in right and wrong, you’re creating this argument through that false belief.

I did not ask why most people do not do it

But you asked why people would believe in a certain standard of right and wrong.

"wrong" in any sense other than legal, has no meaning for someone who is a relentless Darwinist

Wrong exist without legal; it is often simply used to explain inaccuracies. Now you’re assuming that all atheists are relentless Darwinist?


[edit on 18-5-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
It seems to me that the only relentless Darwinists exist in the heads of the religiously-minded.

I repeat, I am not "religiously" minded

She gave you perfectly good reasons, which you did not accept.

they are not perfectly good reasons, hence I did not accept them- if we are flesh and bones with no spiritual existence then there is nothing "morally" wrong about murder- there can never be, other than as a legal interpretation by society

It isn't that jail holds little appeal, its that people have a concience, and do not wish to actually go around killing each other. That's it.

I would say jail is a big factor in stopping many murders- people having a "conscience", if you are a strict secularist, is not a moral judgement on murder, it is a physical response to physical and chemical reactions in the brain.

The other thing of course, is that we in the west, for example, have a society, legal system and teachings born out of Christianity, which has instilled notions of what is right and what is wrong- so we are taught that murder is wrong, that is born out of a religious aspect

It goes back to tribal structures, and how each individual was essential to the surivival of the tribe, if you want to be a Darwinist about it.

there you go, nothing about the inherent "wrongness" *sic* of just walking up to a pensioner and hammering him to death, but what is "good" for society/tribe

But ultimately, you scare me. If God and jail are the only things that stop you killing...please seek help.

You need to revist my first paragrapg