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Former Fundamentalist 'Debunks' Bible

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posted on May, 17 2009 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 



Then why didn't the bible or it's prophets state this? By the way I agree, it isn't black and white, that's why I'm not religious and I'm not an atheist, but that doesn't explain away that the bible is mythological text, derived from other ancient tales, that uses some real places and people to convey the story.


You ask good questions that really are not hard to answer IF we don't attach religious dogma to them.

It is thought that many Bible characters may have been real or myth. Moses is one, and perhaps the story of Job was exaggerated?

Who uses the Bible and for what purpose? Has it not been a control vehicle for centuries? We know that the Bible has thousands upon thousands of issues. From translating from copies to oral transmissions. We don't know the complete accuracy of the Bible, but we do know that it has lasted for over 1700 years.

Man from the beginning wanted to be controlled. They didn't want the weight of personal judgment. So God gave them rules. Over 600 of them.

But for how long would man be manipulated by man? How long would they let others tell them what to believe and how they would be saved? Religion did work in its evil ways for a very long time.

Perhaps The Gods are showing us otherwise, now?



that he was the one and only, and that there is only one true faith to subscribe to.


This again, is mans teaching. Man wrote the Bible and of course added where they wanted doctrine to be added. If we could only talk to Erasmus!




posted on May, 17 2009 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



There may have been many messengers that came down to earth or were born special

Not according to the bible, which is what we are discussing, hence the thread title.

We are not to hold God accountable to the Bible.

If you don’t hold him accountable for the bad and contradictions then how can one possible decide to just selectively thank him for the good teachings in the bible? So ignore the bad teachings or contradictions and just accept the good?


[edit on 17-5-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 07:23 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



Perhaps The Gods are showing us otherwise, now?


This again, is mans teaching. Man wrote the Bible and of course added where they wanted doctrine to be added. If we could only talk to Erasmus!

Again, this thread is not to discuss the Gods, that’s a whole other matter. This thread is discussing the bible.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


of course it's logical. they were in captivity to other nations, several times. they were faced with the cultures, religions, art forms and sacred texts of those cultures. they assimilated the words to explain the same things. if ba'al could ride the clouds, so could jehovah, for example.

another matter that adds to the complexity of it is the delivery style. entire sections are poetic, metaphorical and symbolic. if you live in a place where comparisons are made using specific types of words/concepts/ideas, you will adopt that way of comparison at some point, in order to explain to those you are talking to, what it is you are trying to say, especially since they would most likely not understand older cultural comparisons. it's called being "current" and "present" where you are at the moment.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


Undo and I cannot seem to separate God from the Bible. I don't know how we can.



If you don’t hold him accountable for the bad and contradictions then how can one possible decide to just selectively thank him for the good teachings in the bible? So ignore the bad teachings or contradictions and just accept the good?


Here is where the G word comes in again. How do you know that what is written in the Bible 100% took place? Suppose some of it is rhetoric and some is meant to make an impression while being allegorical?

You can't seem to see the forest for the trees.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 07:57 PM
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The institution of religion has been incredibly corrupted as we all know, indoctrination of religious ideals, among other things in life (money, power, sex, violence, drugs) has been rampant in this world.

Lets just say that religion was never corrupted, and its original message was intact, heard and respected and people just went on and lived their lives just keeping in mind a few things. The original message I am talking about is as follows:

- Humans, and everything else in this universe was created by one being and this being would like us to think of him, and bow down to him everyday. Imagine after making something truly monumental, beautiful and unique (like a universe, humans, even a tree) and not getting recognized for it even if you leave countless signs to be discovered, and send messengers.
- After we die, we get judged on how we treated ourselves, family, friends and strangers, if we helped anyone around us, this has nothing to do with material things or merit (look up near death experiences-many account that their whole life was played before them)
- Our soul may be punished for our wrong doings, either for eternity if an individual is really, really, bad (think murderous rapist), or just until our souls are cleansed
-After cleansing, our soul should experience heaven, God, and paradise for eternity.

Yes there is no cold hard proof of this, but there are signs everywhere. If the elite are satan worshipers, and serve him to further their agenda through rituals and whatever else they do, according to the law of polarity and duality, does that not mean there is an almighty God?

just my 2 cents, I'm not here to debate, just present ideas, and respect others, all I will answer to an attempt to debate is that absolute truth will be exposed when we die.

Peace to All.


reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by brightlight
 


Actually, there are similarities here that support a lot of what you are saying.

We have been so conditioned to follow our ancestors in what they believed. Religion is a stronghold that is difficult to arise from. But it doesn't mean that there aren't any set principles that the Gods wrote into the fabric of society. Most of it having to do with our welfare.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 08:11 PM
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Sure that can be possible, theres no real way of knowing. CERN is on it though with their proton accelerator trying to prove string theory, but that is just an aside.

I hope that is not true, i think it just complicates things lol...


reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



Here is where the G word comes in again. How do you know that what is written in the Bible 100% took place?

If we assume that it isn't then who decides what should be taken seriously and what shouldn't? Who decides what is meant to be truth and what isn't? Then there's no need to regard any of it.


Suppose some of it is rhetoric and some is meant to make an impression while being allegorical?

Where is there evidence of this in the bible?


You can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

I think we're both seeing them, just through different perspectives.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by undo
 



of course it's logical.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, one person's logic is another person's non-logic, in this instance.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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In a review of Misquoting Jesus, Daniel B. Wallace, Executive Director of the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts, wrote, "Unfortunately, as careful a scholar as Ehrman is, his treatment of major theological changes in the text of the New Testament tends to fall under one of two criticisms: Either his textual decisions are wrong, or his interpretation is wrong." Wallace also wrote, "One almost gets the impression that he is encouraging the Chicken Littles in the Christian community to panic at data that they are simply not prepared to wrestle with."[13][14] Ehrman's conclusions have also been challenged by Craig Blomberg, Thomas Howe, and Ben Witherington III.[15][16][17]

Rich Barlow, of the Boston Globe, wrote Ehrman's Jesus, Interrupted (2009) was a critical approach to the Bible to understand its early origins.[18]

en.wikipedia.org...

I know it's wikipedia, but still.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 



If we assume that it isn't then who decides what should be taken seriously and what shouldn't? Who decides what is meant to be truth and what isn't? Then there's no need to regard any of it.


Isn't this where spiritual reasoning comes in, and a personal connection to
God comes in? Why the middle man?



Suppose some of it is rhetoric and some is meant to make an impression while being allegorical?

Where is there evidence of this in the bible?


Why are you taking IT so seriously? Supposing the message lies in-between the verses? And it is up to the sleuth to discover them? Many scholars are doing just that!




posted on May, 17 2009 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



Isn't this where spiritual reasoning comes in, and a personal connection to
God comes in? Why the middle man?

So you think everyone should interpret the bible as they see fit based on what they think God is telling them to see? Then why bother with the bible, why not just live that way without it, what’s the point of the bible if you only take into account what you wish to?

Why are you taking IT so seriously?

Is there something wrong with thinking this is a serious matter?

Supposing the message lies in-between the verses?

And what versus would that be?

And it is up to the sleuth to discover them?

Why didn’t they just write them in plain understanding, why did they write things that may go against the actual message and be interpreted wrong? That's rather pointless, the bible is very precise about a lot of things, what a waste of time all of that precision would be if what you’re speculating is correct. It just doesn’t appear sound to me.

Many scholars are doing just that!

And these scholars would be who exactly?



[edit on 17-5-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 



So you think everyone should interpret the bible as they see fit based on what they think God is telling them to see? Then why bother with the bible, why not just live that way without it, what’s the point of the bible if you only take into account what you wish to?


The Bible was written to mislead the religious masses. It has worked!


Is there something wrong with thinking this is a serious matter?


Oh, it is! I was a devout Christian soldier myself over 12 years ago for most of my life. It is indeed serious. But I left it all behind and chose to re-think the Bible and what I was personally shown by God to do. Yes, question, question everything.



And what versus would that be?


Read behind the dogma in the Bible. It may fascinate you. There is indeed a story behind the story. Look at this thread and see if you catch my drift a little more. That is; if you are interested.


Why didn’t they just write them in plain understanding, why did they write things that may go against the actual message and be interpreted wrong? That's rather pointless, the bible is very precise about a lot of things, what a waste of time all of that precision would be if what you’re speculating is correct. It just doesn’t appear sound to me.


Are you perturbed because of the religious message you hear relating to the Bible? Or do you "sense" that something is wrong?



And these scholars would be who exactly?


There are many books that have been written regarding the Nag Hammadi discoveries and others. New understanding about the synoptic gospels and the gospel of Judas and Thomas, etc.

If you haven't already, I would recommend you checking out the authors of many of these books, including Bart Ehrman.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



The Bible was written to mislead the religious masses. It has worked!

So you agree that the bible is false?

It is indeed serious. But I left it all behind and chose to re-think the Bible and what I was personally shown by God to do. Yes, question, question everything.

Good for you. You seem to perhaps be thinking that I believe in the bible when I don’t, I don’t believe in any religious text or organized religion, but I don’t think the bible was a read-between-the-lines sort of tale, most of the tales were very precise and to the point, if everything is meant to be interpreted differently by every individual who reads it then there isn’t any need for the text, it becomes only what someone projects onto it.

Are you perturbed because of the religious message you hear relating to the Bible? Or do you "sense" that something is wrong?

I’m just trying to understand your reasoning, why do you answer my question with questions that don’t really answer my question?



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 11:03 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


I have a couple of hypotheses that I think are more likely.

1. The bible's authorship had nothing to do with god because A) god doesn't exist, or B) has no regard for humanity. On these assumptions, the authors, when they believed they were receiving information from God, were just imagining things but convinced it was real made the delusion too powerful to personally criticize. God's perceived voice would really have been a construction of what one would expect to see/hear based on the nature that one already believes god has. In this case the actual moral & ethical content would be derived from what the culture believed to be right and wrong at that time period.

If this were the case then when authorship had occurred over many centuries by many different people, the character and moral/ethical teaching of this believed god would change in turn - producing an inconsistent, morally self-contrasting, even self contradicting cannon.

In defence of such a book, apologists would simply be able to say there is an intricate, spiritual and esoteric meaning behind the scriptures that one "inherits" through their connection with god, or in other words, in complete faith.

2. God is actually an unimaginably cruel and evil and and as such, is just toying with us.


These hypotheses make more sense to me than any hypotheses put forward by apologists, some of which are laughable, others which really stretch it and draw on faith. The latter often just sounds like people are trying to save their more comfortable world perspective.


I'm not sure if a god or gods exist or not but if one does and wants me to know it, then it wont be to hard to show me it exists beyond reasonable doubt, rather than rely on evangelists whom all to often have intellects rivalled only by garden tools. - Not the smartest move for an all-wise being.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by Welfhard]



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 11:07 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 



Good for you. You seem to perhaps be thinking that I believe in the bible when I don’t, I don’t believe in any religious text or organized religion, but I don’t think the bible was a read-between-the-lines sort of tale, most of the tales were very precise and to the point, if everything is meant to be interpreted differently by every individual who reads it then there isn’t any need for the text, it becomes only what someone projects onto it.


No, I hear disgust or confusion regarding the Bible or at least those who follow it.

I believe the Bible is so divinely written that it has been completely misunderstood.

Do you like mystery novels?



I’m just trying to understand your reasoning, why do you answer my question with questions that don’t really answer my question?




I work in human behavior or behavioral science. Asking questions draws the person out. Sorry!!



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 



1. The bible's authorship had nothing to do with because A) God doesn't exist, or B) has no regard for humanity. On these assumptions, the authors, when they believed they were receiving information from God, were just imagining things but convinced it was real made the delusion too powerful to personally criticize. God's perceived voice would really have been a construction of what one would expect to see/hear based on the nature that one already believes god has. In this case the actual moral & ethical content would be derived from what the culture believed to be right and wrong at that time period.


Yes, I think there is truth in this. A point to consider: at times they were writing from their sub-conscious through which a God or Gods could have intervened.

I am an author also. I can testify that things came out of me that were outer directed.

Many famous writers such as: Ernest Hemingway said:

"I just take dictation."

While many classical composers will say the same. If one accesses their right brain much can be achieved and connection attained to God. But does it ever get misconstrued? Of course!


If this were the case then when authorship had occurred over many centuries by many different people, the character and moral/ethical teaching of this believed god would change in turn - producing an inconsistent, morally self-contrasting, even self contradicting cannon.


Especially with the first canon in the days of Constantine.


In defence of such a book, apologists would simply be able to say there is an intricate, spiritual and esoteric meaning behind the scriptures that one "inherits" through their connection with god, or in other words, in complete faith.


See! Rarely is anything this complex and deep - black and white. The deeper or more intense a knowledge is, the less black and white it may appear. 2+2 does not always equal 4 in high abstract reasoning.


2. God is actually an unimaginably cruel and evil and and as such, is just toying with us.


I have a thread that deals exactly with this!



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by MatrixProphet
 



The message, I believe, lies somewhere in-between.


Then why didn't the bible or it's prophets state this? By the way I agree, it isn't black and white, that's why I'm not religious and I'm not an atheist, but that doesn't explain away that the bible is mythological text, derived from other ancient tales, that uses some real places and people to convey the story.


I find that many times the bible contains both sides/ways of things, and it is taken as one. Like when I read the NT, I basically see Jesus doing and say what I know to be true, and then Paul to be doing and say things which I know aren't true.

Someone recently asked me - how do you know what parts of the bible are true and which ones aren't. And I think that understanding can be seen in math.

Which of the follow equations are true?

1+1=5
59+20=79
4+2=49
8X6=48
8X7=48

Now, how were you able to determine which of these equations are true, and which ones were false? Because you understand math and know how to do it.

And when one comes to find true and real understanding, then it is exactly like that in the bible as well.

The bible and things like it are merely expressions of understanding. And the point is not to take it literally, but to understand. Repeating the above equations as fact without understanding just means you are still blind. Because as soon as more equations are written, you can't determine which ones are true or false. Unless of course it happened to be one you specifically remembered.

As Einstein said, any fool can know, the point is to understand.

As I said before, things need to be in the proper place. One with understanding should be able to see truth and otherwise in the bible. It is useful for that, it's common and easy for people to reference. But when people put it into authority, it then becomes no different than repeating what is said rather than understanding what is said.

And btw, Jesus does say this as well in Matthew 7, which is really directed to the church and scriptures. But here is how it ends.

www.biblegateway.com...



28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.


Scribes are those who write the bible and scriptures. They are not the authority.

Things are put into allegories because they are meant to give understanding. Taking it literal is like watching the matrix movie and arguing over if neo and the machines are real or not. It's completely beside the point and to argue over that on either side is silly. As the truth of the movie can be found in the understanding it speaks about society. Same goes for the bible.



posted on May, 17 2009 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Yes, I think there is truth in this. A point to consider: at times they were writing from their sub-conscious through which a God or Gods could have intervened.


Yes, well forgive me for not relying on such an unprovable/indemonstrable assumption. - I think the idea that god doesn't is more reasonable.


I am an author also. I can testify that things came out of me that were outer directed.

Many famous writers such as: Ernest Hemingway said:

"I just take dictation."

While many classical composers will say the same. If one accesses their right brain much can be achieved and connection attained to God. But does it ever get misconstrued? Of course!


When I was 4, I had an imaginary friend as did lots of children. Now, when I see a child play with an imaginary friend, I'm astonished by how vivid and complete the character of the friend is. An entire identity and personality is invented out of imagination and subconsciousness. I have read neurology studies done on this phenomenon. The findings showed that the brain is acting as if this imaginary person was actually there, the same patterns emerged when the child interacted with a real person. Children, as young as 3, can generate entirely realistic and complex "extra" personalities witch they then can project outside of themselves. That is amazing.

My first reaction to someone saying something like "I just take dictation." which is then projected on to a deity is just the same mechanism with imaginary friends. Why? Because it's more likely/reasonable.


See! Rarely is anything this complex and deep - black and white. The deeper or more intense a knowledge is, the less black and white it may appear. 2+2 does not always equal 4 in high abstract reasoning.


Actually 2+2 equals four precisely 100% of the time - it's maths, the only field of science than actually has the term "proof". However the square root of 4 actually has 2 answers that are both simultaneously correct: 2 & -2.

However, a deep complex truth may also appear completely unambiguous, especially when our knowledge is incomplete.



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