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Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Connector
The atheist is not making any positive claims -- the theist is. Therefore, by rule of logic, the burden of proof is on you. It is impossible to prove any nonexistence claim. Atheist aren't saying there is no god period....in reality what they are saying is I have no proof of a god, therefore there isn't one. If theists provided real proof/evidence other then just faith, you'd have a hell of a recruiting tool and there would be no atheists.
Here is where an atheist goes wrong:
"I have no proof of a god, therefore there isn't one."
You make a deduction based on the first premise? YOU have no proof of a god, hence, YOU jump to the conclusion that there must not be one.
Can you not see the arrogance in that? Because a group cannot find proof within limited science which primarily uses only the left side of the brain, then this discounts the right side? Ironically, either through God and evolution - both sides of the brain DO exist! Why?
Most abstract knowledge implements the left brain computer chip along with balancing it out with right brain reasoning. Most atheists I have found have a very difficult time bridging the left and right brain. So they stick with what is safe: tangible black and white thinking, which generally relies on someone else's research.
The reality of "God" NEEDS to use the function of both sides of the brain. Leave one out, then there will be extremes in views. Either; extreme emotionalism or extreme black and white with no gray areas.
High abstract reasoning takes in the capabilities that both sides of the brain contribute. Hence, high EQ & IQ.
As long as one only uses formulas and tangible proof, there can be little doubt that this person will ever experience anything as complicated, and abstract, as a God!
You have no proof god exists, therefore you know he exists. See the arrogance in that? Atheists say, "We have no proof that gods exists, show us what you got." And theists consistently fail at show-time. Doesn't bother them, they just keep on with the god-bothering. See the arrogance in that?
Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by freeyourmind1111
As can I relate as well. Very valid point. My opinion is that we should start looking inward for answers and guidance instead of looking to what others say is right. I think God is smart enough to equip us with all we need.Cheers!
Very true. God also uses teachers, so it is important to look beyond ourselves to find the truth. The teachers are usually temporary, though.
I read a lot of books but I don't make their authors - gods, just messengers. I am an author and I don't expect to be worshiped either.
HE can speak through anything, if we are looking. Would you not agree?
You didn't even read his post, did you?
The burden of proof is on YOU. Do I have to prove that it was not God, and a Flying Spaghetti Monster instead? By your logic, I do not, and it is you who has to prove there is no pasta-y higher power. Can you prove that something intangible is not there?
Originally posted by undo
p.s. that's not disproving the texts, however. at least, not in my estimation.
my theory goes something like this:
the bible doesn't cover much of what happened on this planet prior to the arrival of homo sapians, however, it does hint at and suggest that the earth had a civilization on it, prior to homo sapians, and that civ developed. if we include in the deliberations the rest of the ancient texts, you can include things like...the prior civs advanced technologically, went out and colonized the other planets and/or their moons, mined them for resources and became a space-fairing race. there was a war and a cataclysmic event destroyed a planet which is now the asteroid belt. also in the war, the civs on the earth were wiped out and those capable of leaving, did so, in space ships. later, the earth was re-terraformed and homo sapians arrived on the scene. the bible is mostly about what happened after WE got here.
I certainly do agree, as I believe I have experienced this many times.I believe HE can speak through anything, we just have to slow down and pay attention. But also in my experiences sometimes people tend to dismiss or not pay enough attention to their intuition, something I work very hard at following and it can be difficult at times. Very valid point you made my friend. Cheers!
Well, while what you say is true, it goes to prove nothing more than deism being a desperate attempt by humanity to gain some kind of control over the uncontrollable forces of nature.
I don't know about restoring anything, but I don't see why you think love was in such abundance in the pre-Christian era. How much love was there in 146 BC?
Originally posted by orange tom 1999 As to the terrible world concept...I think of the world recorded in the writings of men before the Christian Era...how much love, love, love there was to be found everywhere. You folks reading this know of what I speak...right??? There was Love, Love, Love..everywhere you turned back then. Therefore the world needs to be returned back to this era which was so great ...before the Christian Era...the world era of love, love, love.
Some folks would call this return back to the pre Christian Era by the term
"The Restoration of the True Brotherhood"
Er...I don't know what definition of "major religion" you are using, but it clearly isn't the same as the one I'm using. Christians have done their fair share of persecution over the years, so I don't see your point here.
The Romans had more real problems with the Symbiotes.
What I meant was Judaism did not spread across the Roman Empire like Christianity did, as it was an aggressive religion designed for those who would be conquerors - as they were not the conquerors, a new religion had to evolve that explained just why they weren't the conquerors, and this found eager converts in other nations that had been smacked around by the Romans. Eventually, the Christians are the majority, and begin the merciless persecution of those who follow the old religions.
No, they are not the same religion, but they are not new, revelatory religions either, despite all their claims to be.
I think you need to do a bit more thinking, to be honest. I have seen a noticeable decline in the general intelligence of "the youth" over the last ten years. Children are not getting smarter, IMO.
With no attempt to offend,
Originally posted by lazy1981
reply to post by moocowman
You forgot pedophilia, rape[b, torture and incest, terrorism, witchcraft
Please give me the books and verses that you ascribe these charges to???
I'll give you the incest. As for the rest I have yet to hear about?
This is just one example of the condoning of torture, Apparently you do not understand how unpleasant being stoned to death can be as well.
And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten. Deuteronomy 25:2
Originally posted by watchtheashes
Originally posted by Welfhard
Originally posted by texastig
The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth.
Voltaire's only mistake was to underestimate human stupidity.
You do realize that the Bible is the only religious text to make any everyday and normal life sense right? It perfectly points out our faults and weaknesses and most people don't want to be judged. The judgment comes from your own judgments. I think that is why life the way it is. That and the Bible says don't have sex until marriage.
of course it has been validated.
No Planet-Wide Floods
When early geological investigations proved without a doubt that there was no planet-wide flood as described in the Old Testament of the bible, there was a great cry of outrage. archaeology.about.com...
D. The Bible Garbles Actual History
Some things in the Bible are set in actual historical places and at actual historical times. But much of whatever Bible you’re using garbles what we know of actual history, placing it squarely in the realm of what we call today “historical fiction.” Here, I think a comparison to Homer’s Illiad is helpful. The archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann actually found the remains of Homer’s Troy, validating many of the names, places, and events in the Iliad. Although this discovery changed the way we viewed the Iliad as literature, it did not stop us from viewing it as literature. In other words, the fact that the Iliad correctly records that there was a city called Troy that was attacked by Greeks, it does not follow therefrom that the Greeks actually smuggled in a big wooden horse, or that the various gods fought alongside the Greeks and Trojans, or even that the Greeks dragged Hector’s body through the streets heaping abuse upon it.
Similarly, although some of the events in both the Old and New Testaments are recorded in history, the Biblical writers make a hash of it. Historians generally believe that there was no exodus of Jewish slaves out of Egypt as described in the Bible, or in fact, any of the subsequent conquest events described in Exodus. We know that Asa could not possibly have mustered an army of 580,000 Israelites and then used that army to slaughter a million Cu#es (as described in 2 Chronicles 14); Bronze Age goatherders and desert warriors could not plausibly have maintained lines of supply for armies that big. (By contrast, for example, the Athenian invasion of Sicily — occurring nearly a thousand years later — was less than 1% of the size of the fantastic numbers frequently claimed in the Bible!) For this and other reasons, it is not surprising that none of these hundred-thousand-person battles attested to in the Bible are corroborated by any other source.
Similarly, although the historian Josephus chronicles the life and reign of Herod the Great in agonizing detail, he somehow never sees fit to mention the supposed slaughter of the innocents ordered by Herod described in Matthew 2:16-18. Is it more reasonable to believe that Josephus simply forgot to describe what would have been one of the worst atrocities in history — or that the passage in Matthew is a reworking of (and allegory to) Pharoah’s slaughter of the Jewish innocents described in Exodus 1:22-2:1?
In other words: when we review a Bible, we see that the historical events described therein are best categorized today as “historical fiction” — that is, real events embellished for literary and other reasons, and fictional events that are told in a historical setting but with garbled details, persons, and so forth. This is also true of the Gospels — they mangle contemporary historical events (as partially described above), are uncorroborated by contemporary historians, and bear the marks of legendary development and creative fiction.evaluatingchristianity.wordpress.com...
That God places supreme importance upon His written word is abundantly clear. The Lord has revealed this to man by His praise of His word, and by His condemnation of those who would tamper with it. The exaltation of God's word is a theme which runs throughout the Bible. In the 119th Psalm, God's servant, David, continually exalted the Scriptures. He wrote of his "delight" in His testimonies, and implored the Lord to teach him "the way of thy statutes." In the third chapter of 2 Thessalonians, the Bible reads: ".that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified." God's words are to be praised, and revered. The Lord highly esteems His word, elevating its importance even above that of His name. First, consider the following verse:
"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses." (Deuteronomy 28:58-59)
God's name is glorious and fearful. The penalty for not fearing God's name makes it obvious that He does not take disrespect for His name lightly. In light of the value the LORD places on His name, consider the following:
"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." (Ps 138:2)
The Lord also informed us of His view of His word by giving us three grave warnings to those who would corrupt the Scriptures. God warned against adding to His word:
"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6)
Note that He also warned would-be correctors that they were not to subtract from His word.
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." (Deuteronomy 4:2)
God gave us the words that He wanted us to have, and we dare not alter them. If we are to keep His commandments, we certainly need to know precisely what they are. Hence, the Lord provided ample warnings to us, so that we might not be tempted to change His words. Lest anyone be confused about the utter foolishness of tampering with the holy word of God, the Lord provided a fearsome final reminder in the last verses of His inspired word:
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18-19)
How can anyone read the preceding without recognizing the immense importance the LORD has placed on His word? God promised to severely punish anyone who adds to His word. Worse, He promised to expunge those who would take away from His words, from the book of life! In this light, should we not highly value the Holy word of the living God?
III. Satan's strategies against preservation
God in His omniscience knew that His word would be attacked. Since the day Satan was cast from Heaven, he has been working furiously to sabotage the word of God. Satan's very first attack as recorded in Genesis was on God's spoken word.
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (Genesis 3:1)
The serpent's technique was not to engage in a full-fledged frontal attack of outright denial, but rather to undermine the absolute authority of God's word. Satan is subtle. This is precisely what modernists and atheists are doing when they spiritualize Scripture. "Did God really say that? How do you know?" Most Christians have heard such things many times. These attacks on God's revelation most certainly did not end in the Garden of Eden. They have continued unabated. In the New Testament, we see another example of Satan's tactics; that of changing God's word. Immediately following Jesus' forty-day fast, Satan engaged him in a dialogue. Each time Satan tried to tempt Jesus Christ, the Lord answered him by quoting His own words. The Lord Jesus Christ said:
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)
In the next two verses Satan quoted Scripture to Jesus, boldly altering His words by omitting a key phrase.
"Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone." (Matt 4:5-6)
In this example Satan omitted the phrase, "to keep thee in all thy ways," demonstrating that the devil is so audacious that he dares to subtract from God's word when face to face with their author! This, right after being informed that man lives by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."! If Satan is so bold as to lie to God incarnate, how much more when faced with the likes of fallible men? Another of Satan's strategies has been to obscure God's words by hiding them in a morass of manuscripts and Bible versions. He has used this approach for thousands of years, but during the last century, it has become far more prevalent.
As has been stated previously, the Devil attacks the Lord's words by using one of his most potent weapons - doubt. He didn't start off by brazenly denying God's words, but rather by attempting to undermine Eve's confidence in them. Only when doubt had set in did he deny God's words to Adam and Eve. His methods are much the same today. The multiplicity of Bible versions that we see today, all claiming to be "translated from the oldest and best manuscripts," are just another of Satan's schemes for undermining the authority of God's word. Satan knows that God promised to preserve his word, so he tries to obfuscate it by surrounding it with a dizzying number of varying translations. This can lead to nothing but confusion, and we know that God is not the author of confusion. (I Corinthians 14:33) Those who peddle modern translations will insist that their Bible is the most accurate translation of the Greek texts, or most closely represents the "original autographs." They will smugly boast of how the latest discoveries of the "oldest" and "best" manuscripts give their version added clarity and credibility. They will vainly tout the great scholars found on their translating committees. But how are we to know who to trust? To whom do we turn when we need to know which Bible to rely on? Which one is truly preserved? Perhaps it would be wise to examine what the Lord has to say on the matter.
The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around 2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from Nuzi and Mari.
The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan. 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record, as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.
Is it illogical to you that an all-knowing deity COULD preserve His message to mankind?
History, science and archaeology have externally confirmed the authenticity of the Bible. Nelson Glueck, the renowned Jewish archaeologist, wrote that "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference."1
Archaeologist W. F. Albright (The Biblical period from Abraham to Ezra, Harper, 1960) writes that critics used to say the following: "Until recently it was the fashion among biblical historians to treat the patriarchal sagas of Genesis as though they were artificial creations of Israelite scribe of the Divided Monarchy or tales told by imaginative rhapsodists around Israelite campfires during the centuries following their occupation of the country. Eminent names among scholars can be cited for regarding every item of Gen. 11-50 as reflecting late invention, or at least retrojection of events and conditions under the Monarchy into the remote past, about which nothing was thought to have been really known to the writers of later days."
Now it has all been changed, says Albright: "Archaeological discoveries since 1925 have changed all this. Aside from a few die-hards among older scholars, there is scarcely a single biblical historian who has not been impressed by the rapid accumulation of data supporting the substantial historicity of patriarchal tradition. According to the traditions of Genesis the ancestors of Israel were closely related to the semi-nomadic peoples of Trans-Jordan, Syria, the Euphrates basin and North Arabia in the last centuries of the second millennium B.C., and the first centuries of the first millennium.1
In 1872 when an amateur scholar of cuneiform called George Smith who had been a bank-note engraver by profession, announced that in working through the tablets from Assurbanipal's library in Nineveh, now held by the British Museum, he had come across part of a Babylonian version of the biblical Flood story. Part of the story is quoted here, to show the similarities to the Old Testament account. Here, Noah figure Uta-Napishtim, has built his boat and is about to embark:2
'What I had, I loaded thereon, the whole harvest of life
I caused to embark within the vessel; all my family and relations,
The beasts of the field, the cattle of the field, the craftsmen,
I made them all embark.
I entered the vessel and closed the door ....
When the young dawn gleamed forth
From the foundation of heaven a black cloud arose;
Abad roared in it,
Nabu and the King march in front ....
Nergal seizeth the mast,
He goeth, Inurta leadeth the attack ....
The tumult of Abad ascends to the skies.
All that is bright is turned into darkness,
The brother seeth the brother no more,
The folk of the skies can no longer recognize each other.
The gods feared the flood,
They fled, they climbed into the heaven of Anu,
The gods crouched like a dog on the wall, they lad down ....
For six days and nights
Wind and flood marched on, the hurricane subdued the land.
When the seventh day dawned the hurricane was abated, the flood
Which had waged war like an army;
The sea was stilled, the ill wind was calmed, the flood ceased.
I beheld the sea, its voice was silent
And all mankind was turned into mud!
As high as the roofs reached the swamp! ....
I beheld the world, the horizon of sea;
Twelve measures away an island emerged;
Unto mount Nitsir came the vessel,
Mount Nitsir held the vessel and let it not budge ...
When the seventh day came
I sent forth a dove, I released it;
It went, the dove, it came back,
As there was no place, it came back.
I sent forth a swallow, I released it;
It went, the swallow, it came back,
As there was no place, it came back.
I sent forth a crow, I released it;
It went, the crow, and beheld the subsidence of the waters;
It eats, it splashes about, it caws, it comes not back.'
In 1872 the public reacted with astonishment as, for the first time, an Old Testament story was seen as part of a much wider western Asiatic tradition. This idea is commonplace now, but then it was unfamiliar and to many people unacceptable. The story made newspaper headlines at the time and, indeed, the Daily Telegraph offered Smith 1,000 guineas to go to Nineveh himself to find the part of the story that was still missing. Smith made the trip in the spring of 1873 and within a matter of days found a fragment, seventeen lines long, which filled the only serious gap in the British Museum. Since that time other versions of the Flood story have become available, including a Sumerian version in which the Noah figure is called Ziusudra, in place of Uta-Napishtim of the Akkadian version: there is now little doubt of the ultimate Sumerian origin of the Old Testament Flood story.2
When we study the development of early civilizations, the evidences presented by the scholars clearly portrays the event that took place as recorded in Genesis XI in the Bible,
So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. Genesis 11:8-9
Scholars indicate that when comparatively studying the three great civilizations of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Indus Valley,
There is no question of Egyptian or Indus civilization being established by colonists from Sumer. There are no close similarities of culture of any kind; indeed it is hard to emphasize sufficiently the differences between these civilizations. What similarities exist are all on the conceptual level: the practice of irrigation agriculture, the existence of cities, of monumental art and architecture, of writing, the use of mud-brick and so on. The actual nature of the irrigation works, the form of the cities and their buildings and the nature of the written script are completely different in all three areas.2
The evidence clearly shows the break up of the community, linguistic separation and scattering that would have taken place when the single speech was broken up into many languages by God. After the scattering, these civilizations developed independently and at a later date started trade relations with each other, and this with time resulted in cultural and religious exchanges.
Another interesting fact in this evidence is the use of brick in the scattered locations. The building technology known prior to the scattering as seen in Genesis is,
And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. Genesis 11:3
Thus this known technology was carried by the various groups divided by language to their various areas of settlement (see Indus Valley) when they were scattered by God over the face of the earth.
In conclusion, when we note that the Bible was written by a diversity of human writers over an extended period of time, no such writing can truly stand up to the above tests except when the author of such a writing was God himself and men wrote as they were inspired by His Spirit. The Divine Authorship of the Bible is without any shadow of doubt, and is the only written Standard for all mankind.
I've found archaeology verifies the scriptures....thoughts?