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Originally posted by cyberdude78
I'm in the military and I'd just like to say that I am anything but a dumb, deluded, or evil person. My job is to fix cargo planes, and I'm very proud of my job. Why is that?
Because if I don't do my job then it means the men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan won't get the ammo they need to defend themselves.
It means they won't get their letters from home. It means they won't have a way of getting to Germany when they get injured.
If don't do my job then people die.
And it's not just my fellow American warriors, it's whoever this nation decides to help out on any given day.
When a disaster such as famine happens in a third world country and we decide to help them out, how do you think those humanitarian supplies get over there?
Those bags of rice and medical supplies sure aren't going to walk across the Atlantic to get to Rwanda.
Those supplies get there by way of one of my planes. Now if I don't fix the plane, that plane doesn't fly.
And if my plane doesn't fly, then it means men, women, and children are going to suffer.
That is why I do my job.
Originally posted by StellarX
I know you could perhaps have gone too more trouble and found some sources which made no mention of police but as it stands two of your three sources mentions that police where either the target or that Iraqi police were wounded or killed.
I don't know why some people believe in this notion of 'mindless' violence against random people in public places.
Two of the three cited sources involves the targeting of security forces; perhaps a poor choice on your behalf?
Imperialist have always blamed their victims for the atrocities they are 'forced' to commit in 'self defense'
Originally posted by Jenna
So it doesn't count if Iraqi police were killed? Please explain to me how Iraqi police are somehow not Iraqi's and instead are US soldiers. You say they have been targeting the troops, I provided links that say otherwise.
Perhaps because they are blowing up random people in public places. Or do markets not count as public places that contain random people?
Police and soldiers are anything but the same thing and you know it. Feel free to continue pretending that they are though if it makes you feel better.
Oh ok, I get it now. So it's our fault that the Sunni's and Shiites have been arguing over minor differences of opinion on religion since the beginning of time.
Maybe you should look into their history before you go blaming the troops for something that they have had nothing to do with.
Originally posted by cyberdude78
You raise some valid points, I won't deny that. I do happen to agree that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were constitutionally illegal (whether they were justified or not is a completely different debate), and I do happen to agree that war is one of the ugliest things mankind has ever introduced to the world.
There are a lot of situations in the world that are by no means something for anyone to be proud of. I do agree that there's a lot more than we could be doing in terms of humanitarian aid. I completely agree that a lot more should have been done to help the people in Rwanda when they conducted one of the world's quickest and bloodiest genocides.
However, those are things that sadly are completely out of my hands. As much as I can donate to charity, speak out about atrocities, protest government inaction, at the end of the day there's still a lot of ugly things going on in the world. That is unavoidable, there will always be ugly situations in the world, right or wrong, that's just how it is. So the least I can do is lessen the effects.
Sure, we may not send nearly as much humanitarian aid as we should, but the least I can do is at least ensure that what aid we do send gets there. It may not be enough, but what my cargo planes send over is a lot better than nothing.
Just because I don't agree with how much we do doesn't mean I should refuse to help out with what is being done. It doesn't even matter if we were the one's that caused those famines, I'm still going to make sure my plane flies to help give what relief we can.
Granted, there are going to be casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan until we pull out of those countries (for better or for worse). But the decision to pull them out is not my decision , that job belongs to a collection of elected civilians, not me.
But if I were to stop doing my job all it would mean is that more people would die, and it still wouldn't change when we pull out of there. So why should I stop doing my job and let more people die than necessary?
If you have a gripe about when we pull out, take it up with an elected official. But don't try to tell me that I should try to make the situation worse than it is. And don't try to tell me it's a good idea to try and protest a war by increasing the amount of casualties because I decided to not work on a plane scheduled for an aeromedical evacuation.
And it happens that I do believe in supplying our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan with the supplies they need. It really doesn't matter whether or not we should be in those places, those troops aren't the one's that made that decision
Now if it were Congress and much of the Bush administration actually over in those countries then there might be a case for me to take a couple days off from my job. However, they're not the one's over there fighting.
Instead it's the soldier with a wife and two kids who just wants to support his family and make the world a better place for them to live.
It's the soldier that didn't make the choice for the country to go to war, but went so that others don't have to.
By volunteering for the armed forces and going over there it means that Congress won't institute a draft and send someone who's not willing to make the sacrifice.
The men and women over there fighting for the rest of us aren't the one's calling the shots on whether or not we're in an illegal war or not, they're just the one's who get to deal with the consequences.
You ask me if the doctors who worked to save German soldiers were hero's. With the exception of the madmen that were performing the messed up experiments, the average German doctor in WWII was as much a hero as any other doctor doing his job.
The average German soldier was not Hitler, the majority of them were human beings, just like the rest of us.
There is a very large distinction between the average German soldier and your typical Nazi. So yes, the German army's field medics were indeed heroic in what they did (once again not including concentration camp "doctors").
Same thing goes with their cargo planes. The war may have been wrong on every level, but the vast majority of what those planes did was try to give their brothers and sisters what they needed. If I were in the shoes of a German aircraft mechanic in WWII I'd still do my job with the knowledge that not doing my job would only hurt the average guy rather than hurting Hitler and his Nazi regime.
As for not working on intercontinental bombers, I already don't work on them. I work cargo planes, I'm not qualified to work bombers. Those guys are in a completely different MAJCOM and totally different bases, I've got absolutely nothing to do with them. Nor would I want to at the risk of getting stuck at Minot.
Simply put, if my planes don't fly it does not mean the world's ugly situations are going to simply go away. All it'll mean is that those situations that we all wish would disappear will only be worse.
Politicians are the one's making these decisions that you disagree with so much, it's the military's job to make the best out of the situation given to us.
Originally posted by StellarX
I does 'count' if Iraq security forces or contractors from other countries are killed
and my point is that these attacks are targeted to kill anyone who is aiding the occupiers.
As for 'troops' i obviously meant everyone under arms acting against the best interest of Iraqi's by serving outsiders.
Neither Iraqi bombs or American bombs are known for being able to tell innocent from guilty and yet here we are again forced to presume or accept that the Iraqi's are blowing up random people in random places when that doesn't seem to be norm for anyone. Why is it that you have to believe that the violence is truly random? Why must US enemies always be painted as mindless criminals who kill without reason or logic?
Now perhaps some suitably indoctrinated people will fall for that kind of ridiculous propaganda but not everyone will and those who don't will mock such beliefs as they rightly should be.
It is exactly the same thing in a occupied country.
No, that is not your fault anymore than you are responsible for the 'minor differences' between catholics and protestants and the thousands of other Christian sects. ...
I do my best to 'look into' history as much as i always have and i see no reason to blame the high levels of sectarian violence on anyone but those who upset the regional balance of power.
Iraq Study (Quote is from page 2)
Those death squads were seeking revenge for the deaths of Shiite civilians at the hands of al-Qaida and other Sunni religious extremists in suicide bombings and other attacks.
1300 dead in Iraq sectarian violence
Figures from the Iraqi police statistics department put the nationwide toll of violent deaths at 1,020 since the Samarra bombing, with the majority killed after being abducted by armed men.
Perhaps if you were more open to learning from all the past invasions and occupations the US has staged you could have figured out that the people of the world are a thankless bunch and it just isn't worth invading them to give them the 'democracy' they apparently don't want?
Then again no one has ever claimed that the citizens of imperialist nations are faster learners than the rest of us.
Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Gawdzilla
There are no benefits to war. We are living in a civilization that is a shadow of it's potential and we are doing so largely because of the stranglehold the military, through use of resources and through strategic and planned suppression of individual freedoms throughout the globe, has on our entire planet.
All military have the same overlords, the lords of money, the masters of capital. You may buy the fiction that it's us vrs them at the national level, but the reality is that we are being played by psychopaths, tricked into suppressing ourselves.
And it's been like this for a very very long time.