The 1996 ValuJet Flight 592 crash into the Everglades - did it happen?

i haven't really thought much about the Flight 592 crash until today, and i'm surprised that i couldn't find much of anything about it here on ATS, so i've decided to see if i could provide a grounds for discussion on it.

i decided to search online for some images, and all i could really find were these:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a91ce7c20e80.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c4df0abdf7b8.jpg[/atsimg]

actually, i'm not even sure if the second one is from Flight 592 or the Flight 93 crash in Shanksville, PA.

like the Flight 93 crash on 9/11, it left a very small "hole" in the swamp. also, you'd think there'd be a lot of fuel on board to burn, especially when it was only in the air for 10 minutes:

Flight 592 took off after a delay of 1 hour and 4 minutes at 2:04 pm and began a normal climb. However, at 2:10 p.m. the flight crew noted an electrical problem. Seconds later, a flight attendant entered the cockpit and advised the flight crew of the fire...

Flight 592 disappeared from radar at 2:14 p.m. It crashed in Browns Farm Wildlife Management area in the Everglades, a few miles west of Miami, at speeds in excess of 500 miles per hour. Kubeck, Hazen, the three flight attendants, and all 105 passengers aboard were killed. Recovery of the aircraft and victims was made extremely difficult due to the location of the crash. The nearest road of any kind was more than a quarter of a mile (401 m) away from the crash scene, and the location of the crash itself was a deep-water swamp with a bedrock base. The DC-9 shattered on impact with the bedrock, leaving very few large portions of the plane intact. Sawgrass, alligators, and risk of bacterial infection from cuts plagued searchers involved in the recovery effort.

en.wikipedia.org...

500 mph, and it only made that small of an impact?! can anyone find any pictures of them extracting debris from the swamp? also, assuming all the fuel didn't burn up before they hit the ground, shouldn't there be lots of oil and jet fuel tainting the water?

i really searched thoroughly for all this on ATS, but the best i could really find was this post by "nick7261" and this comment by "Boone 870":

What about ValuJet flight 592?

One of the divers, Officer Paul Toy of the Metro Dade Police, said the aircraft is not buried in the pit. He said the largest pieces of the aircraft in the hole were only as big as a table. He said there were no bodies in the crater.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

unfortunately it's got an expired source for that quote from CNN...

can anyone add any info to this, or at least find me the correct thread to discuss this on? i'm just trying to give this the recognition it deserves, because if it's anything like the Flight 93 crash, well... you know where i'm going...

i really can't believe that i haven't bothered to research this one before, and i think i smell something fishy at the bottom of that swamp - let's see if we can get to the bottom of it!

[edit on 14-5-2009 by adrenochrome]

reply to post by adrenochrome


Thank you, adrenochrome for starting this thread. Big props to you for it!!! Interesting thread title, too

It was I who suggested this as a comparison to UAL93, in another thread.

Just a little bit of background, a little bit of technical info:

This accident occured because of a load of CO-MAIL in the forward luggage compartment. It was a box full of oxygen generators that were A) not properly packed and, B) not labeled as HAZMAT.

An O2 generator is used in the passenger cabin for the O2 masks in the event of a loss of cabin pressure. Years ago the plumbing and associated O2 tanks were removed in favor of this smaller, lighter and maintenance less-intensive technology.

When you yank on the O2 mask you pull a bayonet pin and this allows two chemicals to combine, and the result is pure O2. The chemical reaction produces a great deal of heat.

On the DC9, its cousin the MD80/B717 and the B737 have luggaqge compartments designed to stifle fires. They have NO fire-fighting ability, no fire extinguishing system. The theory is any fire will suffocate from the lack of O2.

Anyway, you can guess why the accident occured. One or several pins were jostled, and the canister(s) began to do their thing.

On the DC9 (accident airplane) the cables for the elevators (actually the elevator tabs, as there is no direct control to the elevators themselves) and to the rudder run under the floor. Along with electrical wiring as well.

The heat was quite intense, and propagated rapidly. The CVR gave clues to the fact that the floor in First Class became unbearably hot, before the airplane control was lost. They had very, very little time. Fires are nasty, nasty things on an airplane, and when inaccessible, usually always fatal.

EDIT: I was going to change the phrase "usually always" to something else, but decided to leave it. Just wanted everyone to know I saw it, laughed a bit at myself!



[edit on 5/14/0909 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker


oh cool, thanks for the reply - i had no idea of those specific details!

...do you think you can find that post you were referring to, if it's worth digging up??

also, i've questioned whether or not this incident is worth digging for the truth - it hardly seems to measure up to the significance of 9/11 - but still, from the impact aftermath, it just reminds me of Flight 93. it makes me wonder how a plane that large could vanish, practically without a trace into a swamp, with not much evidence to show for...

here's some food for thought:

ValuJet Flight 592 was a flight that crashed on May 11, 1996...

en.wikipedia.org...

The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Atlanta field office sent a memo on February 14, 1996, to Washington, D.C., stating that "consideration should be given to the immediate FAR-121 rectification of this airline"--in other words, the FAA wanted ValuJet grounded. ValuJet planes made fifteen emergency landings in 1994, fifty-seven in 1995, and fifty-seven from January through May of 1996.

After a series of safety problems and the fatal crash of ValuJet Flight 592, the company executed a reverse merger with the much smaller regional airline AirWays Corp., now known as AirTran Holdings; thus, ValuJet now operates as AirTran Airways.

...The carrier was headed by a group of industry veterans including co-founder and chairman Robert Priddy, who had started a string of successful airlines including Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA), Air Midwest Airlines, and Florida Gulf Airlines. Board members Maury Gallagher and Tim Flynn, the other two co-founders, developed and ran WestAir before selling it to Mesa Airlines; former Continental Airlines and Flying Tigers President Lewis Jordan joined the carrier a short time later as president.

The airline was taken public in June 1994, after a year of tremendous growth with the addition of fifteen planes since the first flight in 1993. It became the fastest airline in the history of American aviation to make a profit, earning US$21 million in 1994 alone. In October 1995, ValuJet placed an order with airplane manufacturer McDonnell Douglas for fifty MD-95 jets (renamed the 717-200 after McDonnell Douglas' merger with Boeing in 1997) with an option for fifty more, thus making it the first low cost airline to launch an aircraft. To keep costs low, the airline also bought many used aircraft from around the world. At the time ValuJet's fleet was among the oldest in the United States averaging 26 years.

On May 11, 1996, ValuJet suffered its highest-profile incident when its Flight 592 crashed, killing all aboard. The resulting investigation revealed numerous systemic flaws, and on June 17, 1996, ValuJet was grounded by the FAA. On September 26, 1996, ValuJet resumed flying with 15 jets, down from 52 before the crash, after complying with all U.S. Department of Transportation and FAA requirements. On November 4, 1996, ValuJet announced that Joseph Corr, former CEO of Continental Airlines, would become CEO and President of the airline at a time when the airline was in serious trouble. It had lost $55 million since the crash of Flight 592.

After the large amount of negative publicity surrounding the Flight 592 incident, ValuJet suffered serious financial problems. On July 11, 1997, ValuJet announced it would merge with the much smaller Airways Corporation, parent of AirTran Airways. The merged company would retain the AirTran name, although ValuJet was the senior partner and nominal survivor of the merger.

en.wikipedia.org...

isn't that how it goes in modern American business - buy low, sell high??...

...sounded like one of those opportunities that you can't pass up - what a deal!


moreover, i wanted to show everyone what a plane crash SHOULD look like when crashing into the Florida Everglades - the Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 crash:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/facc30ac9fca.jpg[/atsimg]

NOSE:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/73af7548b1f0.jpg[/atsimg]

COCKPIT:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/76adcc2ddd87.jpg[/atsimg]

FIRST-CLASS:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f60dd4b5c01f.jpg[/atsimg]

RIGHT WING:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fe8fde789002.jpg[/atsimg]

DEBRIS:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/89afaeb5a23c.jpg[/atsimg]

eastern401.googlepages.com...

now THAT'S a plane crash!!

furthermore, how deep are the Florida Everglades??

well this cross-section doesn't show it as being very deep at all...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/117ff0c90cb3.gif[/atsimg]
en.wikipedia.org...

it also says on that page:

The consistent Everglades flooding is fed by the extensive Kissimmee, Caloosahatchee, Myakka, and Peace Rivers in central Florida. The Kissimmee River is a broad floodplain that empties directly into Lake Okeechobee, which at 730 square miles (1,900 km2) with an average depth of 9 feet (2.7 m), is a vast but shallow lake.[21] Soil deposits in the Everglades basin indicate that peat is deposited where the land is flooded consistently throughout the year.

so am i getting this right? the river that deposits the water into the Everglades is only 9 feet deep itself?!


my question then, is how did this wreckage seem to completely disappear out of sight, unlike the Flight 401 crash?!

i just came across this .pdf on how they measure the depth of the Everglades:

pubs.usgs.gov...

...from what i can infer, it shows a chart on the third page (at the bottom) that shows a range of 8-10 feet...

could that be the deepest it gets?

reply to post by adrenochrome

moreover, i wanted to show everyone what a plane crash SHOULD look like when crashing into the Florida Everglades - the Eastern Air Lines Flight 401 crash:

my question then, is how did this wreckage seem to completely disappear out of sight, unlike the Flight 401 crash?!

(raising hand)....OOOHHH! I know, I know!!!

OK, thanks for calling on me. Simple answer: Eastern 401 was in level flight, at about 180-200 knots when it impacted. Valu-Jet (later to be re-named AirTran) impacted virtually straight in at over 500 MPH, very very similar to UAL93 at Shanksville. One would have to agree that since the Everglades are wet, they will be soft, correct? The soil in the area where UAL93 impacted has been described as dirt that was used to fill a former deep strip mine excavation. This would imply that that soil was not densely compacted, but rather loose. In both cases, at such high speeds, kinetic energy resulted in a good deal of penetration. Remember good ole' Newton? F = MA.

I could also explain WHY EAL401 crashed, but I fear it will bore the reader. I have studied this accident, I actually have a copy of the full NTSB report. Also, this accident was re-created in a TV movie some years ago, starring Ernest Borgnine as one of the pilots (Actually, the Flight Engineer). The Captain and First Officer survived, the F/E did not.

reply to post by weedwhacker


please, inform us of why this plane crashed, in layman's terms!

anyhow, i found this:
eastern401.googlepages.com...
and this:
www.freshgasflow.com...

other than that, i've got this to ask:

can you tell jet fuel's in water just by looking at it?? will it still look like swamp water? or will it have those multi-colored oils in it?

for the Flight 401 crash it says:

Drenched in jet fuel, 23-year-old flight attendant Beverly Raposa struggled to free herself from her jump seat and piles of debris.

eastern401.googlepages.com...

obviously not much burned up from this crash, but it doesn't appear as if Flight 592 produced much of a large fire either, so you'd think there'd be some jet fuel remaining, floating in the water...

am i correct to say the water is approximately 25% heavier than jet fuel??
Jet Fuel Quality: Flying Clean and Dry

Water, being approximately 25 percent heavier than jet fuel, settles to low points (when freed from solution) and must be removed.

am i taking this out of context? ...or should the jet fuel be visible on top of the murky swamp water?

also, does anyone know how deep the Everglades can get??

[edit on 15-5-2009 by adrenochrome]

A VJ Flight 592 eyewitness call to 911 audio is here.

From a CT perspective I guess we don't know who is really making that call.

tr.truveo.com...

some more

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 15-5-2009 by FX44rice]

reply to post by FX44rice


thanks a lot!!

...i was wondering if there were any witnesses!

you'd think there'd always be at least someone around to see it!

you're right, though, just like some of the 9/11 interviews right after the towers were hit, we don't know who these people really are that are giving us a play-by-play of events...

i want to believe that this crash was real, because i hate the idea of the TPTB fooling us, but that's why i wanted this discussed - to finally be relieved by the real truth!

Originally posted by adrenochrome
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

am i correct to say the water is approximately 25% heavier than jet fuel??
Jet Fuel Quality: Flying Clean and Dry

Water, being approximately 25 percent heavier than jet fuel, settles to low points (when freed from solution) and must be removed.

am i taking this out of context? ...or should the jet fuel be visible on top of the murky swamp water?

The simple answer is 'sometimes'. If the water surface is relatively undisturbed, then you'll see the rainbow effect, if the lighting conditions are right. If the surface is stirred up, either by natural events (gusty wind, for example) or unusual events (the wake of a passing speedboat, or rescue and recovery efforts around a plane crash), you can just as easily not see the rainbows. Even if you can't see jet fuel, though, you'd still know someone was soaked in it from the smell.

also, does anyone know how deep the Everglades can get?? :puz

In a word, 'no'. You can get general numbers, and you can even get average depths over a given region...but an average is just that. There could easily be a very deep sinkhole in an otherwise quite shallow area.

Also, as Weedwhacker pointed out, it's not just the depth of the water, it's also (for lack of a better term) the depth of the bottom. I've never had the 'privilege' of wading through the Everglades, but between hunting trips, fishing trips, and helping reinforce levees during flood season, I have been in and around the Mississippi river...and let me tell you, just because you 'touch bottom' doesn't mean that you won't keep sinking. Sometimes the mud and muck are only inches deep, but I know first-hand of a case near Cape Girardeau MO where a pickup truck was completely covered by bottom silt. I'd imagine something very similar could happen in the Everglades, even though I haven't seen it.

My question here is quite simple really: whom would benefit if the crash had been a hoax or somehow didn't happen? I'm just not sure why it would be in the interest of anyone to fake the crash of this airliner, and I think that should always be one of the questions we ask of any potential conspiracy.

well i don't know how much we can trust YouTube commenters, but under this video, one commenter says his dad's friend died in the plane crash, and becomes offended when someone calls him a liar...

www.youtube.com...

...maybe the whole Flight 93 "where's the plane" scenario was getting to me, and i inadvertently applied it to this subject, because there's no plan visible, not even debris, from the aftermath photos...

still though, ground and swamp water are 2 very different compositions...

anyone else have anything to add?

[edit on 15-5-2009 by adrenochrome]

reply to post by ProjectJimmy

That was going to be my ? as well.

I would like the OP to elaborate on his theory.

It could have been a host of reasons, one being airline competition. If the movie Howard Hughes was any bit of fact, it demonstrated the intense competiiton and stakes of the industry.

reply to post by adrenochrome

Rodney Culver of NFL SD Chargers, Notre Dame, and St. Martin DePorres Catholic H.S. in Detroit, was also among victims.

reply to post by FX44rice


Well if you read the report on the crash it shows that competition did have an effect on the accident. There was a conspiracy at ValueJet to cut costs at the risk of safety. From January to May of 1996, there were 57 emergency landings of their aircraft (did I mention they only had 56 planes?) By comparison, British Airways had exactly the same number for the entire year of 1996, despite having a fleet of nearly 300 aircraft, and 10 times the number of flights.

The FAA was already trying to shut the company down by that point, and had issued a ruling that ValueJet could not buy any more planes without approval (the only time the FAA has said that). The US Department of Defense also ruled that ValueJet could not fly troop movement contract missions for them because of their safety record.

When the accident report did finally come out, one of the parties it blamed for the crash was the FAA itself, for not stopping ValueJet sooner!

In the end though, after a complete corporate clean-out and re-branding as AirTran, the company has done very well for themselves. This is much to the annoyance of their arch-rival, the main-line Midwest Airlines which had to seek protection from Northwest (now Delta) to keep from getting taken over by AirTran.

Currently AirTran has decided to take on Delta (which by the way is the world's largest airline) by moving their main hub from Orlando to Atlanta. So I would say the company is doing rather well, although they do still score second to last among large North-American carriers for their safety rating.

reply to post by ProjectJimmy

Thanks. I have read the report posted.

I don't see a motive / incentive to 'intentionally' down VJ 592 in light of the report though.

I spent 12 years in Miami in the US Coast Guard and working for Eastern Airlines. I also spent alot of weekends in the glades and had the opportunity to spend alot of time in the air over the area of the crash. The everglades water depth varies not only according to rainfall but also because of the structure of the bottom. That part of Florida is made entirely of ancient coral which is very porous allowing waterflow from Lake Okeechobee to the Gulf. The water depth of the glades can be anywhere from dry ground to 20+ feet depending on the amount of decayed vegetation, voids in the coral bottom caused by long standing water currents etc.

The debris field differences between the Eastern crash and Valujet Can most likely be attributed to the difference in aircraft mass (L1011 vs DC9 ) and the speed and angle of impact. I can tell you from reports from "Coastie Buddies" that worked the crash sites that valujet "Drilled into hard coral" and Eastern made an unplanned high speed glades landing that destroyed the aircraft. Water flow rates in the glades while hard to detect normally, actually are pretty swift. Any fuel slick would have traveled down range fairly soon. Just my opinion.

x

[edit on 15-5-2009 by nscopheacriaaclters]

reply to post by adrenochrome

please, inform us of why this plane crashed, in layman's terms!

adreno, if you mean EAL401, you've done your research quite well already. I'd hate to ramble on, specific questions I can answer.

I will say that the narrative you found is factually correct, although written in more of an Op-Ed style, rather than a simple factual account.

But, maybe this will suffice: The pilots failed to adequately monitor the operation of the airplane because they allowed their focus on the NLG 'down' light to distract them. (Today, we have a term for what happened to EAL401 - CFIT. Controlled Flight Into Terrain). This is a de-facto way to say 'pilot error'. Another set of eyes in the cockpit might have prevented the crash.

adreno, using your link from googlepages click on 'investigation'. I was about to type what I knew, but it's already there for everyone to read. Nobody wants to see me just repeat what's already been written.






[edit on 5/15/0909 by weedwhacker]

www.youtube.com...
There's something you might find interesting for the study of the ValueJet crash. The video is of a crash test involving an F4 Phantom II and a concrete wall at 800 km/h which translates out to about 500 mpr or the speed that DC9 hit the water. Remember that at those speeds hitting water is like hitting a concrete wall, so potentially the results could be rather similar.

Notice how the F4 basically is reduced to powder by the impact, including the still burning rocket booster that was used to accelerate the plane. It would have been quite an explosion when the plane hit and that is a lot of force to put on one location, which would easily explain how the plane penetrated so deeply into the ground. It's just incredible what these crashes can do. Remember the recent crash in Buffalo how a Bombardier Dash-8 it went in at a very high angle too and only took out one house when it crashed. The Dash-8 has a wingspan of 25.89m and the DC-9-32 has a wingspan of 28.47m, again not too much of a difference.