Losing an illusion or gaining a truth?

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posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by maria_stardust

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
reply to post by maria_stardust
 


I can certainly see what you are getting at with perception as perception plays a huge roll in life. If it is my perception that the earth is flat ( alot of peoples perception 500 years ago) does that make it so?


Of course, not. It's impossible to consider the concepts of truth and falsehoods as simple matters of black and white. The missing factor is perception, and that is a strictly human trait. What needs to be addressed is the issue of humanity and how that shapes perception.

Each one of us is our own indefinable mixture of emotion, reason. Add to that the fluctuation of our whims and desires, and you have a basis as to what is essentially the basis of our perception.

You may have well have posed: If a tree fell in the forest, and no one was around to witness it, does it make a sound?

The answer is "yes" to the person who has previously witnessed trees fall and is certain of cause and effect. The answer is an astounding "no" to the deaf person who cannot ascertain the concept of sound.


Ah very good, I am impressed.

However I prefer a slight variaton on that famous philosophical phrase.

If a tree is in the woods but no one has ever seen it, does it exsist?

In other words does a tree have to be seen/ percieved before that tree officially exsists?

Perphaps it exsists however it does not exsist to you or I untill we see it or percieve it. So in a sense it both exsists and does not exsist. Is that sort of what you are trying to get at?

In other words it CAN be both? Very wise...Very wise.

On a side note,

It is intruiging. I have seen many great answers and opinions in this thread alone and because of that my perception on the question posed in the Op has changed a few times just in this thread alone. Very intruiging


[edit on 16-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]




posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by maria_stardust

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
reply to post by maria_stardust
 


I can certainly see what you are getting at with perception as perception plays a huge roll in life. If it is my perception that the earth is flat ( alot of peoples perception 500 years ago) does that make it so?


Of course, not. It's impossible to consider the concepts of truth and falsehoods as simple matters of black and white. The missing factor is perception, and that is a strictly human trait. What needs to be addressed is the issue of humanity and how that shapes perception.

Each one of us is our own indefinable mixture of emotion, reason. Add to that the fluctuation of our whims and desires, and you have a basis as to what is essentially the basis of our perception.

You may have well have posed: If a tree fell in the forest, and no one was around to witness it, does it make a sound?

The answer is "yes" to the person who has previously witnessed trees fall and is certain of cause and effect. The answer is an astounding "no" to the deaf person who cannot ascertain the concept of sound.


Ah very good, I am impressed.

However I prefer a slight variaton on that famous philosophical phrase.

If a tree is in the woods but no one has ever seen it, does it exsist?

In other words does a tree have to be seen/ percieved before that tree officially exsists?

Perphaps it exsists however it does not exsist to you or I untill we see it or percieve it. So in a sense it both exsists and does not exsist. Is that sort of what you are trying to get at?

In other words it CAN be both? Very wise...Very wise.


This reasoning holds, unless you take into account the fact that the tree and nature itself is a perceiver (trees are living beings afterall).



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by Estess


This reasoning holds, unless you take into account the fact that the tree and nature itself is a perceiver (trees are living beings afterall).


Living things yes, conciece beings capable of percieving.... I am not so sure about that.

That is kind of beside the point anyway, as I was just trying to understand maria_stardusts take on human perception and used the tree analogy as an example to show what I was thinking about what she said.

[edit on 16-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by Estess


This reasoning holds, unless you take into account the fact that the tree and nature itself is a perceiver (trees are living beings afterall).


Living beings yes, conciece beings capable of percieving.... I am not so sure about that.

That is kind of beside the point anyway, as I was just trying to understand maria_stardusts take on human perception and used the tree analogy as an example to show what I was thinking about what she said.

[edit on 16-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]


All living beings are conscious beinga, just at a different density or dimension. Remember, it's always a question of perception. The fact that we perceive plants as fixed things or "dead" beings doesn't mean that's what they truly are. Think about it this way; we cannot perceive higher dimensional planes hence higher dimennsional "beings", though just because we are limited by our 5 senses doesn't mean that this "material reality" is the only one that exists.

Off to bed...



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by Estess

All living beings are conscious beinga, just at a different density or dimension. Remember, it's always a question of perception. The fact that we perceive plants as fixed things or "dead" beings doesn't mean that's what they truly are. Think about it this way; we cannot perceive higher dimensional planes hence higher dimennsional "beings", though just because we are limited by our 5 senses doesn't mean that this "material reality" is the only one that exists.

Off to bed...


I agree that their is more than one reality but you are stating "trees are concious like it has been a confirmed scientific fact or something. To my knowledge that has never happened.

In fact the only living thing that I have heard of that has been confirmed to be consious (to be aware of ones own exsistance) Is humans....

Or are you trying to say that it is merely your perception?

Good night.

[edit on 16-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

If a tree is in the woods but no one has ever seen it, does it exsist?

In other words does a tree have to be seen/ percieved before that tree officially exsists?



It seems as if you're referring to a specific tree, Grasshopper. If that's the case, then the tree does indeed exist.


Now, if you're just referring to any old tree in the woods, then that would exist as well, as it is impossible to have a woods without the prerequisite trees.

Let's take the issue of perception regarding truth and illusion one step further. Since perception is a deeply individual trait, it stands to reason that our perceptions change as we mature and expand our knowledge. When such shifts occur, naturally our perceptions of truth and illusions shift along as well.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by maria_stardust

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

If a tree is in the woods but no one has ever seen it, does it exsist?

In other words does a tree have to be seen/ percieved before that tree officially exsists?



It seems as if you're referring to a specific tree, Grasshopper. If that's the case, then the tree does indeed exist.


Now, if you're just referring to any old tree in the woods, then that would exist as well, as it is impossible to have a woods without the prerequisite trees.

Let's take the issue of perception regarding truth and illusion one step further. Since perception is a deeply individual trait, it stands to reason that our perceptions change as we mature and expand our knowledge. When such shifts occur, naturally our perceptions of truth and illusions shift along as well.


No just any old tree. For the sake of argument let us take this tree out of the woods.


If a tree has not been seen/percieved does it exsist?

That said, we seem to be getting down to the nature of perception. Nature versus nurture. Environment versus culture.

Not only does our consiesness become altered as we grow but there is also environment, friends family culture etc to take into account.

Now I am wondering what has more of an impact, perception on culture and nature or nature and culture on perception....



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 


It seems as though you are asking: What makes us human?

What are we? Who are we? What is human nature? These are all profound questions in their own regard, and as a result they are all open to subjectivity. Subjective truth comes from -- of all things -- perception, and does not suffice as a truth for another.

The only way to address human reality is through individual perspective and introspection. Then you have to start dealing with things like Id, ego and other ethereal things that go bump in the night. And that, my friend, is a rather thorny subject.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by maria_stardust
 


Yes I think ultimatley that is where my thoughts are leading me. What are we? Why are we? etc...

I guess the answer to those questiosn do in fact lie within our individual perception of reality.





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