Losing an illusion or gaining a truth?

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posted on May, 14 2009 @ 05:01 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Originally posted by blind.face
Now that I think about it.. there is no 'actual truth'.. only an established consensus that has been formed and called the truth.

Why is 2+2=4? Because we were taught that? Is 2+2 really 4, or is it the consensus of the masses that accept the answer? We say, therefore it is..

Truth is definition, and definition is created. Now I really have myself confused.


I see what you are getting at but I think perhaps your confusion lies in the difference between facts and truths.

There was something I said in a threa once that may help clear up your confusion.

" Years ago it was fact that the earth was flat,and that it was the center of the universe. Now we know better though. Facts change, the truth stays the same."

You see even though it was considered fact that the earth was flat and the center of the universe, the truth was always that the earth is round and no where near the center of the universe.

Does that make sense?


it makes sense, and I understand where you are coming from.

what confuses me though is fact or truth being made up by a series of words.. words have definition, but are they truth. At some point.. there was no definition, therefore I wonder if our definitions are true. We have created and established truth through our understanding. 'created'..

I thank you for your reply, and it helps bring my tired mind down to a level that may be able to get some sleep tonight.

I hope that I am making myself clear, and not coming off as too fuzzy.




posted on May, 14 2009 @ 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

I like the phrase "the truth is out there" too, however I find your phrase " the truth is in here" to be more accurate, because I believe the truth lies within us all, somewhere, some how....


Truth is just truth... it does not lie within us... it just 'IS'... our ability to perceive truth lies within us but truth itself does not. It is all pervasive... so perhaps, from that perspective, a part of it lies within us but that is only a piece of truth. It's all around us AND in us.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 06:14 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

what confuses me though is fact or truth being made up by a series of words.. words have definition, but are they truth. At some point.. there was no definition, therefore I wonder if our definitions are true. We have created and established truth through our understanding. 'created'..


Words/facts are not truth. They are just representations of our perceptions of truth. Truth has always and will always 'BE'. Our words come and go and are limited to our perceptions. Truth is not.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 06:53 AM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 




After a while I started thinking about which comes with more wisdom Losing an illusion/falsehood or gaining a truth?


I don't think you have to trade one for the other. In fact, I think most people carry with them falsehoods that they KNOW are falsehoods - yet continue them anyhow out of a sense of culture, or duty, or simply because they like them.

For instance, I don't expect to die anytime soon, but in the event that I do I've asked those who will be left behind to bury me to place two coins over my eyes before I'm lowered in the ground. I know Charon will not be waiting for my payment to cross the river Styx. I know there is no river Styx. I am doubtful there is even an afterlife. Yet still I want this done.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 07:25 AM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 


"I am thinking right now that there is more "wisdom" in losing an illusion because doing so allows to you also recognize the truths that were hiding behind the illusion."

------------------------------------------------

Humanity are currently like backward thinking birds.

When a bird flies at a window it only see whats on the other side, losing sight of itself and its reflection. Bam... It hits the window and dies.

Humans are doing the same thing (backwards) with reality. We are fixated on our reflections and missing out on whats on the other side of the glass. Just hovering at the glass, forever slaves to our reflection.

We all get glimpses of the truth throughout our life, yet most perform complex mental gymnastics to lie to themselves about the nature of reality by constantly injecting there reflections into all situations.

So yes, every time you trade the illusion (ego) for truth you gain wisdom but lose some of yourself. Through that loss and new understanding will come a fresh battle with your ego as a new reflection will be getting in the way of truth again.

Backwards Bird.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 


Yes but meanwhile I slightly prefer the "loosing an illusion" way of going about it...after spending decades thinking I have to learn, gain, learn, gain, etc. You seem to be coming into a similar mood.


Yeah, that makes sense too. sometimes it is just easier to strip away the added "baggage" then it is to add on a bunch of stuff.

In other words, it does make alot of sense to rid your self of the illusion before you start piling on the truths.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 


I agree with your reasoning. You cannot flaw your logic, your conclusion IS correct. However, gaining a truth and loosing an illusion can be regarded as one in the same.

I would say it is more important to loose an illusion simply because you can analyse that illusion, see how it was constructed. That in itself opens your mind to testing other illusion, which should in theory be based upon the same method.

I have found illusions are 99% truth, 1 % lie. Just that little twist at the end if you see what im getting at.

Thank you for this enjoyable thread



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 08:43 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, I believe that is what everything is all about at this point in our human history.

We are weathering the winds of change as we speak.

All illusions are now breaking down to finally unveil the ultimate truth.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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I believe there is really only a small handful of truths out there to find out really. There are illusions out the wazoo. As you rid yourself of illusions, you come closer to the truth(s). But I don't believe losing an illusion means automatically gaining a truth at all. But there are some truths, as was mentioned, that stare you right in the face. So you need only to lose your denial to find them.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 06:44 PM
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reply to post by dtice
 


I agree, losing an illusion does not equate to automatically finding a truth however I believe that it it brings you closer to finding that truth.

Think of it like this, How do you find a needle in a hay stack? You start striping away the hay piece by piece untill eventually that small shiny object is staring you right in the face.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 07:26 PM
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Why choose if you have the opportunity of losing an illusion and gaining a truth at the same time?

Don't focus on creating boundaries and constraints on yourself!

The only thing preventing you from gaining truth is you thinking that possibility.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by Estess
 


I didnt say anyone had to choose one or the other I asked what they thought of each and even left open the possibility of them being one and the same. In other words, was asking what people thought of each one possbility and what makes more sense to them. I was not asking which was correct. If I did that I would not find the answer because questions such as these are so open to interpretation that right or wrong is not really a factor.

I agree with what you are saying but the reason we are getting so many different asnwers is because I left it open for people to give their own opinion. Is one better than the other? Are they the same? Why do you think so, what do you think it means to find a truth or lose an illusion and all that good stuff.



[edit on 16-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 07:56 PM
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Losing an illusion or falsehood is better, by far. It's like dropping dead weight. But one also has to take into consideration, that what is deemed truth or illusion is a matter of personal perspective. One person's truth may be another one's illusion.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by maria_stardust
 


Very true, but I wonder, would the fact that one mans truth is another mans illusion ultimatley make it an illusion? If it is a truth would it not be the truth for all?

I can certainly see what you are getting at with perception as perception plays a huge roll in life. If it is my perception that the earth is flat ( alot of peoples perception 500 years ago) does that make it so?

Does that make sense? What do you think?



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
reply to post by Estess
 


I didnt say anyone had to choose one or the other I asked what they thought of each and even left open the possibility of them being one and the same. In other words, was asking what people thought of each one possbility and what makes more sense to them. I was not asking which was correct. If I did that I would not find the answer because questions such as these are so open to interpretation that right or wrong is not really a factor.

I agree with what you are saying but the reason we are getting so many different asnwers is because I left it open for people to give their own opinion. Is one better than the other? Are they the same? Why do you think so, what do you think it means to find a truth or lose an illusion and all that good stuff.



[edit on 16-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]


Thruth is in reality perceived as such by the individual in accordance to his own belief system. Everything is relative; it's not like you can just gain truth as in ultimate and "true" truth.
Truth and Illusion are just two faces of the same body.

Analogically, to quote Shakespear:
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so".



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by Estess


Thruth is in reality perceived as such by the individual in accordance to his own belief system. Everything is relative; it's not like you can just gain truth as in ultimate and "true" truth.
Truth and Illusion are just two faces of the same body.

Analogically, to quote Shakespear:
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so".


You know I was just thinking, in a sense you seem to be stating what you are saying as fact, however it is just a matter of perception so in a wierd way you are sort of contradicting yourself.

I mean, if reality is all just how we percieve it, then why do you state it as fact, because some one else might percieve that our perception is NOT reality, does that make sense?

In other words, even if it is true the fact that some one else may have the perception that reality is not perception, makes it also false.

Which brings us to what maria_stardust posted which was essentially, one mans truth is another mans false to which I replied:



I can certainly see what you are getting at with perception as perception plays a huge roll in life. If it is my perception that the earth is flat ( alot of peoples perception 500 years ago) does that make it so?


So I guess what I am trying to say is, despite perception it makes sense to me that ultimatley there is but one truth. It is either one thing or it is not... Does that make sense?

In other words just because it is percieved by one person to be this, and by another to be that, it does not make both right does it? A thing can only be one thing ultimaltey, atleast that is my perception (theres that word
)at the moment.


[edit on 16-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 


What is it that I'm stating as a fact?

[edit on 16-5-2009 by Estess]



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:20 PM
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To quote Guns & Roses... Welcome to the jungle, baby! No... wait... Use your illusion. Yeah that's it. I believe that once I recognize the illusion for what it is, the greatest truth I am illuminating is that it has no power but the power I grant it. So then to further my own truth it is up to me to see how I can use that illusion. It all exist to further my growth, not hinder it. The only hindrance is in my own denial of it's inherent transitory nature. To accept that change is inevitable, thus growth is constant.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
reply to post by maria_stardust
 


I can certainly see what you are getting at with perception as perception plays a huge roll in life. If it is my perception that the earth is flat ( alot of peoples perception 500 years ago) does that make it so?


Of course, not. It's impossible to consider the concepts of truth and falsehoods as simple matters of black and white. The missing factor is perception, and that is a strictly human trait. What needs to be addressed is the issue of humanity and how that shapes perception.

Each one of us is our own indefinable mixture of emotion, reason. Add to that the fluctuation of our whims and desires, and you have a basis as to what is essentially the basis of our perception.

You may have well have posed: If a tree fell in the forest, and no one was around to witness it, does it make a sound?

The answer is "yes" to the person who has previously witnessed trees fall and is certain of cause and effect. The answer is an astounding "no" to the deaf person who cannot ascertain the concept of sound.



posted on May, 16 2009 @ 08:21 PM
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reply to post by Estess
 


Thank you. I was just writing down my thoughts on what you said. i am glad they made sense. Sometimes I seem to be writing faster than I can edit my own thoughts.

So I wonder sometimes if I am making sense or if what I am saying seems to "out there" to most, but most of the time people seem to follow fairly well.






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