Reheat - Hole in the Ground

Cameron, your desperation is obvious.

You are doing your darndest to discuss anything but the alleged Flight 93 crash site.

Off topic plane crashes have nothing to do with this thread. No, they don't. You thinking it does not make it true. Your other plane crash is off topic and worthless.

You have not proven that Flight 93 was dug out of that crater and your contrary spin is wearing thin.

You got anything to add Tezz, or this your typical Troll Time at ATS?

Flight 1771 is VERY relevant to this thread. Unfortunately, you fail to see it.

Originally posted by CameronFox
You got anything to add Tezz, or this your typical Troll Time at ATS?

I'm not the one trolling, Cameron. I'm trying to get the thread back on to the topic of Flight 93, not some other plane crash.

Flight 1771 is VERY relevant to this thread. Unfortunately, you fail to see it.

No it's not.

turbofan started this thread, so he wasn't dragging another thread off topic.

How about you start a thread on Flight 1771, so you don't drag this thread off topic?

Originally posted by tezzajw

I'm not the one trolling, Cameron. I'm trying to get the thread back on to the topic of Flight 93, not some other plane crash.

Last I checked, you are not a Mod here. Therefore, add something to the thread, put me on ignore, report me, or don't bother reading the thread.

No it's not.

turbofan started this thread, so he wasn't dragging another thread off topic.

Yes it is.

Tino is asking what happened to Flight 93. He is not satisfied with the amount of debris caused by the crash and has questions about this. You know we have a finite number of photographs showing debris at the crash site. What we now do is analyze what we do have and use what other resources we have. We have another high speed, nose down airplane crash.

The results of the 1771 crash is similar to that of flight 93. The evidence of flight 1771 shows a similar crater, lack of debris, similar size debris field, similar witness statements, and similar first responder reactions.

Heck, the suicide note was found on a barf bag! A piece of the gun was found with a piece of the mans finger on it! This type of evidence is often laughed at by truthers. (Red Bandanna, Passports, etc.)

Originally posted by CameronFox

I'm really not sure what wind speeds at 1000 feet have to do with
debris on the ground. Where are you going with this?

So far you haven't shown me any evidence to account for enough
debris to suggest a 757 crashed in and under that crater.

See, this is a typical truther response. You sir, have to show me what you think is an appropriate amount of debris from a high speed nose down impact.

I have attempted with video evidence. witness statements, NTSB, and FDR reports, to show you that there was at least one crash that was similar. Flight 1771.....The results of the 1771 crash is similar to that of flight 93. The evidence of flight 1771 shows a similar crater, lack of debris, similar size debris field, similar witness statements, and similar first responder reactions.

Hi Cam! Did you happen to mention that the flight you were referring to
broke up in mid-air which of course would scatter debris all over the place.

In 1987, PSA Flight 1771 crashed near Harmony, CA. N168US (350PS) plummeted into the ground from 22,000 feet, causing the plane to go supersonic and break up enroute. Source-PSA History

Your comparison of course fails unless you are suggesting that Flight 93 was struck by an air to air missile or had a bomb on board.

Either way, Flight 1771 broke up mid air by UA 93 did not. No wonder the debris field was scattered by Flight 1771.

Is there any reason why you omitted this information? Ah never mind, its the favorite fallacy of omission debunkers use when the information harms their argument.

Next?

[edit on 18-5-2009 by Swing Dangler]

posted by Swing Dangler

Hi Cam! Did you happen to mention that the flight you were referring to
broke up in mid-air which of course would scatter debris all over the place.

In 1987, PSA Flight 1771 crashed near Harmony, CA. N168US (350PS) plummeted into the ground from 22,000 feet, causing the plane to go supersonic and break up enroute. Source-PSA History

Is there any reason why you omitted this information?

What? Mr Honest Joe 'trust me' CameronFox was being deliberately deceitful?

I am astonished. What is this world coming to?

posted by CameronFox
Watch this video on flight 1771... it may help. Thank you

PSA Flight 1771: Eerily Similar To Shanksville

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The results of the 1771 crash is similar to that of flight 93. The evidence of flight 1771 shows a similar crater, lack of debris, similar size debris field, similar witness statements, and similar first responder reactions.

[edit on 5/18/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by CameronFox
I am not avoiding anything Tino. I am not giving you the run around. You sir, need to explain to me what the "required" amount of debris is in a high speed, nose down air crash.

How about more than a bandanna, damaged rotor and tiny section of
fuselage. You did say that 95% of the aircraft was recovered? Where
are the pictures showing 95% of the debris?

By this time I believe that you think the fuselage dug itself into the
ground 165 feet. In order for this to happen, the aircraft would have
to remain in form in order to displace the earth. That would be about
17,500 cubic feet of dirt just for the fuselage section.

Regarding flight 1771, there is no record of large engine parts found. There is no record of a tail piece found. Landing gear, etc. Should there have been? There is a photograph of the crater, no engine there either?

THis may have something to due with the fact that FL1771 broke up
mid-air at approximately 1.2 mach. Check the reports. Thanks Swing Dangler.

The FBI claims that 95% has been recovered. UA was given the remains. Have you contacted them?

As a matter of fact, a few people have contacted the FBI on record.
Have you?

You know that there were no photographs taken of most of the remains pulled out of the strip mine. By suggesting the plane "dug itself" is another strawman attempt.

I'm not suggesting this; it's your official story. What's the deal with the
photos? YOu don't think capturing the evidence of 95% of UA93 would
be in the interest of the investigators/public? Why do we not see these photos?
Are they classified? If so why, and not the other few pieces we see?

Your photographs are shown from the opposite side. (and quite far away)

What was the direction of wind in Shanksville that day?

How easily The OS suppourters throw out the bandana. Still never heard a good explination for that, or have you conceded it's an obvious plant?

I think this video just about sums up what happened to Flt. 93'




Well there it is right from the horses mouth.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by Nola213]

reply to post by Nola213

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c77a4f8a3f6a.jpg[/atsimg]

Flight 93 was shot down?

So assuming that Dummy Rumsfeld is telling the truth and not lying as usual; when did the 9-11 perps decide to fake the hole in the strip mine at Shanksville and seed it with borrowed aircraft boneyard parts without serial numbers? Was this a spur of the moment change of plan or in the works for weeks? Of course the FBI is trained to react swiftly; but they really had their hands full on 9-11, didn't they?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/398523a1a219.jpg[/atsimg]

Surely that alleged engine rotor discovered near the surface of the hole and the two black boxes discovered at 15 feet and 25 feet deep in the hole, did not create that hole in the strip mine if the aircraft was hit by a missile and broke up in midair.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cd14af7396bf.jpg[/atsimg]

And how was the aircraft seen over Indian Lake minutes after the alleged crash, if the aircraft was shot down or crashed at Shanksville?

reply to post by SPreston


Your welcome, SPreston!

I would also like to ask Cam the following question: where are the wing spars and tail section after they made the indentation into the ground?

They were a solid mass of course or they don't make the imprint, therefore we should be seeing nice sized pieces of debris within those indentations right?

1. Did they dig in and stay?

2. Did they dig in, fall apart and stay?

3. Did they dig in and then bounce back out and scatter?

Originally posted by Swing Dangler
Hi Cam! Did you happen to mention that the flight you were referring to
broke up in mid-air which of course would scatter debris all over the place.

It actually was discussed I believe on page 1 or 2 of this thread. But allow me to repeat.

If you can, please click here this will take you to the summery from the NTSB that states in part:

WITNESSES ON THE GND SAID THE AIRPLANE WAS INTACT AND THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF FIRE BEFORE THE AIRPLANE STRUCK THE GND IN A STEEP NOSE-DOWN ATTITUDE.

Your comparison of course fails unless you are suggesting that Flight 93 was struck by an air to air missile or had a bomb on board.

No sir. There is no evidence of either. If so, post it up. I'd like to see it.

Either way, Flight 1771 broke up mid air by UA 93 did not. No wonder the debris field was scattered by Flight 1771.

Again, please read the NTSB report. Then think about it. If the plane broke up as you say, why were larger parts of the plane not found? The link you sent us to is a website from a Google Group called "Cactus Wings." Perhaps one of you can contact Kevin Trinkle and see where he received his information. None of the official documentation or witnesses support this.

Is there any reason why you omitted this information? Ah never mind, its the favorite fallacy of omission debunkers use when the information harms their argument.

I didn't omit anything. I the NSTB clearly states that witnesses did not notice the plane break up .. unless of course they were covering up this crash too.


[edit on 18-5-2009 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by turbofan
Where are the pictures showing 95% of the debris?

This is starting to become the rallying cry of the Troother's demand for evidence..."Where are the pictures"?

As if nothing *ever* occurs without pictures. Especially of importance.

First off, why do you think pictures should be available and second, why the heck do you think *you* are important enough to warrant seeing them? Just because *you* think you are important enough doesn't cut it.

Just because *you* don't have access to or have seen more images of the Shanksville crash scene or of the recovered aircraft wreckage does not mean they don't exist.

50 people died in the Continental crash up in Buffalo in Feb. Have you seen any images of the dead and dismembered bodies? No? Well they must not have died then, I suppose.

It really is an absurd standard to live by - no pictures? Then it didn't happen.

Originally posted by turbofan

How about more than a bandanna, damaged rotor and tiny section of
fuselage. You did say that 95% of the aircraft was recovered? Where
are the pictures showing 95% of the debris?

By this time I believe that you think the fuselage dug itself into the
ground 165 feet. In order for this to happen, the aircraft would have
to remain in form in order to displace the earth. That would be about
17,500 cubic feet of dirt just for the fuselage section.

I didn't say 95% of the aircraft was recovered. The FBI claimed to have given 95% of the plane back to United Airlines. So, UA is in possession of it. (minus the CVR and FDR)

You don't know what I believe. What is it Tino that you think happened to flight 93? Or are you doing to cop- out of this by pulling a PFT and say you "don't have a theory?"

THis may have something to due with the fact that FL1771 broke up
mid-air at approximately 1.2 mach. Check the reports. Thanks Swing Dangler.

I suggest YOU check the NTSB report.

As a matter of fact, a few people have contacted the FBI on record.
Have you?

They are contacting the wrong people. UA is in possession of the remains. As a matter of fact, I attempted to contact the office here in Boston to inquire about this. My attempt was unsuccessful. I was only doing it in an attempt to silence a few folks. I tell you what Tino, you U2U me and I will forward you the contact information.

I'm not suggesting this; it's your official story. What's the deal with the
photos? YOu don't think capturing the evidence of 95% of UA93 would
be in the interest of the investigators/public? Why do we not see these photos?
Are they classified? If so why, and not the other few pieces we see?

Here lies the difference between you and me. I saw evidence that was made available. I read the reports. I looked into DMORT. I looked into the THOUSANDS of people that worked the site.

You, on the other hand choose not to believe the evidence at hand and think that since there are not enough photographs, there is some sort of cover up or deception.

What was the direction of wind in Shanksville that day?

How high was the flume? What was the direction of Impact?

reply to post by SPreston


Preston (and all other gentle readers please take note) why did you include two photos of the crash site at the Pentagon, when this is a thread about UAL93 in Shanskville?

This is such a serious topic, it would be best to attempt the utmost accuracy possible, no?

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by Swing Dangler
Hi Cam! Did you happen to mention that the flight you were referring to
broke up in mid-air which of course would scatter debris all over the place.

It actually was discussed I believe on page 1 or 2 of this thread. But allow me to repeat.
If you can, please click here this will take you to the summery from the NTSB that states in part:

WITNESSES ON THE GND SAID THE AIRPLANE WAS INTACT AND THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF FIRE BEFORE THE AIRPLANE STRUCK THE GND IN A STEEP NOSE-DOWN ATTITUDE.

Your comparison of course fails unless you are suggesting that Flight 93 was struck by an air to air missile or had a bomb on board.

No sir. There is no evidence of either. If so, post it up. I'd like to see it.

Either way, Flight 1771 broke up mid air by UA 93 did not. No wonder the debris field was scattered by Flight 1771.

Again, please read the NTSB report. Then think about it. If the plane broke up as you say, why were larger parts of the plane not found? The link you sent us to is a website from a Google Group called "Cactus Wings." Perhaps one of you can contact Kevin Trinkle and see where he received his information. None of the official documentation or witnesses support this.

Is there any reason why you omitted this information? Ah never mind, its the favorite fallacy of omission debunkers use when the information harms their argument.

I didn't omit anything. I the NSTB clearly states that witnesses did not notice the plane break up .. unless of course they were covering up this crash too.


[edit on 18-5-2009 by CameronFox]

Air Disaster.com:

Several seconds later, the CVR picks up increasing windscreen noise as the airplane pitches down and begins to accelerate. A final gunshot is heard as Burke fatally shoots himself. Airspeed continues to build until 13,000 feet, when traveling at a velocity of 1.2x Mach, the aircraft breaks apart and the Flight Recorders cease functioning.

Hmmm FDR stops functioning after break up...

Mr. Schroeder was also a member of the trial team in the In re December 7, 1987 Air Crash Cases, which arose from the deliberate in-flight destruction of PSA Flight 1771 by a former airline employee resulting in the loss of life of all 43 persons aboard. Source: Transit Law-Attorney Profile

In-flight destruction via a lawsuit. Hmmmm.


What NTSB witnesses saw the intact plane crash?? They fail to name any.

You may want to read Defrauding America by Rodney Stich and his exposure of the NTSB with regards to aircraft accidents. Rodney Stich Biography His bio speaks volumes about his experience.

That is why I would take with a grain of salt what the NTSB states in their summary. That is why I sought additional resources showing the plane broke up in mid-air. To what extent, it is unclear.

So you accept the unammed witnesses in this case, but the identified, on the record witnesses who saw the plane fly over Indian lake are wrong?

Isn't that a bit hypocritical, Cam? Selective reasoning?

Originally posted by Swing Dangler


Air Disaster.com:

Hmmm FDR stops functioning after break up

Where did they obtain their information? I have read it. I have sent e-mails. (as have others) they haven not responded to me. We do not know where they got their information. It is not sourced.

There is nothing on-line that I have been able to find that shows the FDR report.

Again, where are all the plane parts? The first responders are quoted as saying they only found small debris.

What NTSB witnesses saw the intact plane crash?? They fail to name any.

Damn NTSB. They should name all their witnesses in a recap huh?

That is why I would take with a grain of salt what the NTSB states in their summary. That is why I sought additional resources showing the plane broke up in mid-air. To what extent, it is unclear.

Your additional resources are not sourced.

So you accept the unammed witnesses in this case, but the identified, on the record witnesses who saw the plane fly over Indian lake are wrong?

Nope, I didn't accept unnamed witnesses. I accepted the NTSB summary along with the statements from NAMED sources that were at the scene.

Conflicting reports. We all know witness statements are not ALWAYS accurate. How many witnesses saw flight 1771 breaking up at 13K ft?

Thank you.

You take the witness statements WITH the physical evidence.

Edit to add... SD.. can you please show me the news articles that quote the people who SAW the plane fly OVER Indian lake? Not the ones that heard it... the ones that SAW it.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical, Cam? Selective reasoning?

Pot meet kettle.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by CameronFox]

In the final minutes of Flight 93, passengers attempted an uprising and tried to retake the plane at which point the hijackers crashed it into a western Pennsylvania field. The plane had been headed for the U.S. Capitol, according to Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.
Related


"I don't want to die," a passenger is heard to cry out in the tape. Then a hijacker says, "Shall we finish it off?"

The hijackers alternated between Arabic and English.

The recording began at 9:31 a.m. with the hijackers' voice clearly stating, "Ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain ... we have a bomb on board, so sit." For the next few minutes, passengers are repeatedly told, in English, "Don't move," "Shut up" "Sit," and "down, down, down."

As the tape proceeded, it was clear that passengers were gaining the upper hand.

A voice of a hijacker, presumably inside the cockpit, says, "They want to get in." The voice continues, "Hold from within." At 10 a.m., there is a voice that says, "I am injured." A hijacker asks in Arabic "Shall we finish it off?" The response come back: "No, not yet."

Then a voice is heard in English: "In the cockpit! If we don't, we die!"

At 10:01 a.m., a hijacker asks again: "Shall we put it down? The response: "Yes, put it down."

At that point, the plane appears to go out of control. There are sounds of the hijackers trying to shake off the passengers. The plane pitches back and forth.

A translation of the hijackers' Arabic words was provided to the jury. At one point a hijacker is heard to say "In the name of Allah, most merciful, most compassionate."

A voice in the cockpit says "Please don't hurt me. Oh God!" Then a few seconds later somebody says "I don't want to die!" three times.

In the last minute, voices could be heard in English saying "push up" and "pull down," as flight data showed the steering yoke moving wildly. Some interpreted that as a struggle for control in the cockpit between passengers and hijackers.

The hijackers for more than four minutes before that been swinging the plane wildly in an effort to throw the rebelling passengers off balance.

Then there are what sounds like groans in the cockpit. Amid sounds of a struggle, a hijacker asks, "There is something, a fight?" The response is, "Yeah." Then in Arabic a couple of minutes later, a voice of a hijacker says "Everything is fine. I finished." He said that around the time that the plane is turning back toward Washington.

As the jury heard the recording, prosecutors played a video presentation that simultaneously showed the flight path, speed and heading in a mockup similar to a flight simulator.

At 10:02 a.m., a hijacker says, "Give it to me. Give it to me." At 10:03 a.m. the plane dives amid crashing sounds and the tape stops. The last sound heard as the plane nears the ground: "Allah is the greatest."

The Flight 93 cockpit voice recording is the only such tape that investigators were able to hear from any of the four airplanes hijacked on Sept. 11.

The government rested its case just before 11:30 a.m. EDT after the judge rejected prosecutors' request to display a running presentation of the names and photos of all of the nearly 3,000 victims of Sept. 11. Prosecutors were instead allowed to show one large poster with the pictures of all but 92 of the victims.

There were three victim-impact witnesses who gave testimony following the broadcast of the Flight 93 tape in the courtroom.


After reading the transcript for the vdr id have to say the reason the wreckage buried itself is the hi jacker did something no pilot would do. Namely crash the plane nose first into the ground any pilot would try to land as close to normal as possible

[edit on 5/18/09 by dragonridr]

Originally posted by dragonridr
"I don't want to die," a passenger is heard to cry out in the tape.

Funny, I did not know the COCKPIT voice recorder picked up sounds in
the passenger area? You might want to speak to some pilots and techs
about your previous statement.

After reading the transcript for the vdr id have to say the reason the wreckage buried itself is the hi jacker did something no pilot would do. Namely crash the plane nose first into the ground any pilot would try to land as close to normal as possible

That takes us right back to the circular argument of providing visual
evidence and explaining the physics of an aluminum tube boring itself
into the earth.

Do you by chance know the direction of wind that day? We seem to be
having trouble with people answering questions with questions...care to answer?

Originally posted by turbofan


Funny, I did not know the COCKPIT voice recorder picked up sounds in
the passenger area? You might want to speak to some pilots and techs
about your previous statement.

Have you read the transcript? Actually why don't you listen to pilot for yourself. Will you?

en.wikipedia.org...

That takes us right back to the circular argument of providing visual
evidence and explaining the physics of an aluminum tube boring itself
into the earth.

Do you by chance know the direction of wind that day? We seem to be
having trouble with people answering questions with questions...care to answer?

Tino... Flight 1771 ....remember?

Tino... what was the wind speeds at 1K feet?

come on now, you're better than this.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by CameronFox]

[edit on 18-5-2009 by CameronFox]