Well, I'm not going to contest much of anything, here, not being adequately certain of all of the truthful historical facts; however, will post some
links to resources which may or do provide information that is variously relevant in the context of the posts of this forum.
Instead of providing one long post, this is going to be split up into shorter ones.
True Torah Jews - Jews Against Zionism www.jewsagainstzionism.com...
Got the link from the American IAP site, Islamic Association for Palestine
. Both are new to me, and while I don't
recall having yet read anything at IAP, what, and little it's been so far, was read at JAZ was enough to find that it seems to contain very
important, realistic, and interesting information; imo. While not being certain of the accuracy, what they say at JAZ seems to align well with the
fact that around 300, or more, American Jewish rabbis signed and sent a petition to Ariel Sharon during summer or fall 2003; pleading for the
cessation of the Israeli government's treatment, terrorism, etc., towards Palestinians, for the Israeli government to establish peaceful
I agree that the Palestinians should not commit suicide bombings of innocent Israelis, and that these actions are actually and extremely
counter-productive attempts to punish Israelis. However, having recently read statistics giving the number of Israelis killed by such actions,
compared to the number of Palestinians killed by the much more powerful and ruthless Israeli government and military forces, etc., well, it's much
easier and more understandable to support the Palestinians. Innocents on both sides must be supported, but the conflict has been far worse for the
Palestinians, many of whom only have rocks to fight with.
Palestinian children killed by Israel
, by Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank, Apr 13 2004
This gives the statistics referred to above.
No government should rule on the basis of religion, and the Israelis should not try to use the Bible to excuse their terrorism towards Palestinians;
it's an unacceptable defence, for it is definitely not verifiable with God. Because no part of the Bible is actually verifiable with God, the Bible
must be interpreted very carefully.
For Christians, we have certainty, enough anyway; knowing that we have no right or authority to use our religion in order to harm others in any
manner; to discipline or apply limited harm in a context of self-defence, or when defending innocent others, maybe, or sure, but not to harm,
certainly not to kill; and, Christ expressly stated to i/ensure that we keep state and religion separate matters. Christ said something to the effect
of: "leave to Ceasar what is in his reign, while to God that which is in His", iow, keep church and state separate, don't mix the two, or confound
one with the other. Furthermore, God is not the temporal ruler, and this is far too obvious for us to be confused about this reality.
The latter makes rather perfect sense, too, for our societies are multi-ethnic, multi-religious, etc., and governments must endeavor to carefully keep
this reality in mind when creating and enforcing human laws. We can certainly refer to well developed and considered moral teachings taught in or as
part of religious faiths, when considering what human laws are needed or justifiable, but we must be very careful to not impose against legitimate,
enough anyway, liberties of others, or anyone. It is not acceptable to use religion to define laws which strike against what are actually legitimate
human liberties that, simply, or solely, maybe not everyone in a particular society cares for or agrees with on a personal basis.
Governance must be Just, as humanly Just as we can feasibly render, for and towards all members of society.
Really, no one has a valid basis for supporting the Israeli government on the basis of the Old Testament, or any other Jewish religious laws, norms,
or guidelines. Jerusalem and the temple there are religious matters and they should not be used nor accepted as justifiable/Just excuses for harming
non-Jews, for which there are no Just reasons. Furthermore, Jewish religion, the truest one, has the Ten Commandments, amongst which are: "Only God
Shall Thee Worship", no idolatory, like that which exists very much in CAPITALISM, "the people of the golden cow"; "Thou Shalt Not Kill"; and,
"Thou Shalt Not Steal". The Israeli government, and people who support that government, have some serious waking up to do; hypocritically or
incompetently trying to pretend that the OT can be used to support these rather terroristic acts, whilst simultaneously acting in contradiction with
the very same OT. Neither the OT, nor any other part of the Bible, NT, while I also consider the Muslim Book following the NT as part of the
universal Bible (if Christians want Jews to accept that the NT is part of our Bible, along with the OT, then we must recognize the same for Muslims,
else be hypocrites and hegemons), cannot sensibly, Justly, be used in such extremely contradictory ways.
The very best thing humans can do is to strictly adhere to the principle of "do not unto others that which you would not want done unto you". This
applies equally well for every human being, regardless of religious faith; else, the "law of causality" states that "what goes around may very well
come back or be returned, in kind", in which case the hegemon has no right to complain; they surely can and do, but they have no right to do so.
However, the Palestinians involved in commanding suicide bombings definitely need to cease these acts which are bad for both sides, disastrously
counter-productive. Neither side seems to care about all of the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle. The whole situation is a major,
terrifying, horrifying, vicious cycle; and, Rachel Corrie, bulldozed to death by Israeli soldiers, who had no reason to not see her, was right, about
that awful situation needing to be settled with peace.
Let me introduce readers who have not yet become aware of a certain practice some Jews, most likely Zionistic ones, have been found to use, instead of
the True Torah, Law of Moses. This is about the Talmud, and it's multiple, diverse, versions, and it's a rather controversial topic; however, this
cannot be contested, given that no one authoritatively contests Jews from referring to the Holocaust and blaming Germans; whilst it was really Jews
Come and Hear ... - An Educational Forum for the Examinations of
Religious Truth and Religious Tolerance www.come-and-hear.com...
It may be necessary to go to a section reserved for the topic of the Talmud,
maybe; not recalling.
The above is the or one of the most comprehensive sites I've come across on this topic; although, am not an expert on it and thus will not vouch one
way or another about the validity, accuracy, or lack thereof; and, that applies to all of these resources on the Talmud. However, what is said is at
least realistic, albeit I haven't read any of these, completely; mostly bits (am not doing a master's or PhD thesis on this topic, so ..., but
eventually want to get these entirely read).
The following are, I believe anyway, primarily about the bad, worst, version of the Talmud; the one referred to as the Jerusalem, as opposed to
Babylonian, Talmud, I also believe to recall.
Talmud Unmasked www.biblebelievers.org.au...
Talmud Exposed 220.127.116.11...
The Longest Hatred, ed. Jane Birdwood 1991. On 'anti-Gentilism' www.biblebelievers.org.au...
The following are miscellaneous resources on, or at least including, the Talmud.
, by Marc Cohen www.geocities.com...
I have read none of this, yet.
Torah >> Mishnah and Talmud www.askmoses.com...
NOTE: Although some, perhaps many, Jews will despise me for posting the above links on the Talmud, which is also covered by the JAZ site, to some
extent anyway, these Talmuds have been acknowledged by Jewish rabbis, including American, and other experts on Jewish religion.
The Jerusalem or worst Talmud is wicked, bad, disgusting, but does seem to be very fitting with the attitudes and conduct of too many humans,
including people in positions of "leadership", whom I'll leave unnamed. They do not care about the lives of other humans, and this has been
extremely demonstrated for us all to witness, whilst there is no valid reason for living in denial of what is obvious. At the IAP site, which I
checked to i/ensure it's up, available, there's a quotation on that homepage, quoted words of an Israeli official in 2000; and, it states that if
the Israeli government deemed that it would be more effective to kill 2000 Palestinians, instead of 200, then this would be done; and, that is rather
as per wicked Talmudic narcissism, psychosis, etc.
The Babylonian Talmud is much, far, better, less bad; however, it nonetheless remains pharisiatic in nature. That, oth, is not to criticize Jews
whose faiths are based on this Talmud, pharisiatic law, because this RC Christian is certainly capable of agreeing that pharisiatic manners are not
unique to Jews; also to a considerable number of Christians, Muslims, and possibly people of other religions to varying degrees. For RCs, f.e., the
seven capital sins are rather pharisiatic doctrine, not really reflected in the teachings and examples of Christ; such as anger is not a capital sin,
for Christ expressed, demonstrated, fairly serious anger; meanwhile, mischanneled or too extremely expressed anger can be bad, sinful. The same goes
for the capital sin of pride; it's not sinful to be sanely, healthily proud, it only is when the pride is vane. And, of course, there's the
doctrine of the Holy Trinity, for which there is inadequate information in the NT; there was Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, but Christ
did not refer to them existing as a Holy Trinity, three persons in one, not per se anyway; he referred to God as his father, as well as ours, and to
us as his brothers and sisters, and to his mother as being mother to us all. Christ said he was one with the Father, but we can be one with others in
various ways; spouses one with each other through loyalty, me one with others in a common cause, Solidarity, etc. Lots of pharisiatic doctrines have
been created, and certainly not only by Jews. Furthermore, the RC Church would probably, many enough priests would anyway, refuse to marry a
Christian with a Jew, but Christ said nothing against Jewish marriages, and he purportedly changed several or more jars of water into wine for a
Jewish wedding celebration. Christ only argued or fought against pharisiatic scribes and enforcers, and only when they were being pharisiatic; not
with other Jewish rabbis and people. And, he would not fight against sane Muslims any more than he did - did not do - against anyone else. He did
not fight against pagans, etc., and even complimented some of them. Definitely, he was solidly down-to-earth and non-narcissistic; down-to-earth
enough that his teachings easily and quickly were spreadable, and are easily-enough understandable by any sane people.
We humans fight nonsensically over matters we cannot Justly argue or defend; and, this is a human trait, universally, that is, not restricted to any
particular race, religion, sex, etc. All sane and knowledgeable people are aware of that, too. The rest are either awfully ignorant and allow it to
be expressed arrogantly, or they're bigots, hypocrites; in both cases, acting as hegemons, "doing unto others that which they would not accept to be
done unto themselves".
Sorry, to some degree anyway, for posting this lengthy post on the topic of Jewish religion(s), other religious outlooks, etc.; however, given the
"feuding" going on in this forum, rather along this line or overall topic, it seemed appropriate to provide additionally related resources or