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Possibly new 9/11 theory?

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posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 03:01 PM
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Here
I dont know if this has been brought up in the forum before, if so, lock the thread, but I was googling for my op/ed I am writing and I found it interesting.

[Edited on 27-4-2004 by browha]




posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 04:51 PM
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9/11 was carried out by Muslim foundamentalists that want to destroy USA and Israel. USA and Israel have a right to defend themselves.

The idea that the only one that benefits from 9/11 is Israel is absurd. What has Israel gained from 9/11 ? only more hate, more terrorism and more problems.

Racist groups around the world would instantly jump on the Israel hate bandwagon, as they did.

Another absurd idea is that the Mossand was behind 9/11. It is absurd for two reasons:

a) they would not dare kill their agents. The agents themselves would not accept it; they are not religious lunatics, they are good and educated people that would not like to murder thousands of American citizens.

b) Arabs would never accept to be helped by Israelis...they hate Israel.

Therefore, I don't see any Mossad involvement.

Yet another absurd idea is that just because the WTC was owned by Israelis (and WTC 7 by Solomon Bros), they demolished it to get the insurance. But why kill 3,000 people in the process ? If it was so, they could have done it on Sunday, when the buildings were empty. After all, is is claimed that the WTC buildings were demolished. Since it was a controlled demolition, they could have done it in the weekend, preferably at a time that the building was empty.

And just because there are Jews amongst the top ranks of our society, that does not make them evil. There are lots of other ethnicities around here. In fact, the Anglosaxons are more evil than the Jews, and they are, in fact, the ones that run the world. Just about 200 years ago, half of the world was a slave to the United Kingdom. Right now, Anglosaxon policy runs the world. The Jews are not running the world, they actually don't have the power to do so. What country has troops in 140 countries ? not Israel. What country has more than 7,000 nuclear warheads ? Not Israel. What country is the richest one ? Not Israel. What country has the most sophisticated army ? Not Israel. What country has the most oil ? Not Israel. How come the Jews run the world then ?

What good have Arab leaders done for their people ? Saddam Hussein has taken his country's per head salary from 20000$ in 1970 to 20$ in the nineties!

The Saudis have named a whole country after their name!!! where is the Arab pride here ? how they dare accept it ? And why one of the richest countries in the world has so poor citizens ?

And then it is Palestine...why do Palestinians want their country to have Jerusalem as capital ? they were offered a country proposition numerous times. If they had accepted it, there would be no problem today. Instead of arming babies with bombs and blowing them up, they could have organized a global plead for having their own country. No one would deny them a country of their own.

Israelis had to have a home. Everyone is entitled to. Should the Germans be thrown away from Germany because they caused 2 world wars with 50 million people dead ? nope. But I don't see anyone complain about Germany. So why Israel should not have its home, preferrably in the historical birthplace ?

If things were not heated up, no one would deny access to Arabic monuments in Jerusalem. In fact, the Jewish people are historically known for keeping traditions, and they would certainly keep the Arabic monuments free.

There are a lot of Nazi militia groups rising in the US. Haven't the humanity learn a lesson from nazism? just before 60 years ago, millions of people died in furnaces.

We truly live in a bizarre world that the truth is very twisted, more and more every day.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 07:24 PM
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Thats it, Masterp, fall in line like a good drone. But your reasons are flawed.

1. Israel has gained alot of benefit. For one, the elimination of thier biggest threat: Iraq. For 2, they now have access to Iraqi oil, as the pipeline from Iraq to Israel has been opened for the first time since 1948. They also have the benefit of the worlds largest military industrial complex at thier beck and call eliminating any enemy that threatens the security of thier racist state.

The Israelis are the racists here,its quite clear.

And the Arabs would not take direct help knwoingly from jews, but there are many Jews that could easily pass as Arabs, sicne the two groups are related, and thus, infiltrate as arabs, double agents, what have you. The terorists would never be the wiser on the true idenitiy of those Mossad agents.

And you dont have to be a religious zealot to suicide yourself. You simply have to have a crazy enough ideal that you believe strong enough in. Japanese Kamazied for thier country, not thier god. The Germans did similar things. Communists have suicided themselves for communism.

And Mossad agents would suicide themselves for Zionism. Plain and simple.

The Israeli involvement in 9/11 becomes clear when one examines it further. They had everything to gain. Do you think the Israeli govornment cares about a couple hundred ordinary Jews on the streets who get blown up in retaliation? Hell no. Thje benefits from an angry America killing thier enemies and allowing Israel to help plunder the riches outweigh the deaths of a couple hundred unfortunate souls.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 08:01 PM
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1. Israel has gained alot of benefit. For one, the elimination of thier biggest threat: Iraq.


Why was Iraq thier biggest threat?



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 08:22 PM
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Is it possible that they were purposely demolished ???

Something about the insurance

I feel like a mad scientist seeking the answer to the unknown question. I have heard this theory before that there were detonators (built into the WTC when they were first built) and that they were employed...but like any newbie its an inquiry more than a statement that Im making here:

HELP ME UNDERSTAND

another theory

(/11; "Conspiracy Fact"
by Web-Wender Sunday August 31, 2003 at 04:18 PM



- No steel framed structures have ever collapsed due to fire. On 9/11 three buildings collapsed, "officially because of fire, WTC 7 the third.
- The stunning lack of military response to the hijackings has yet to be explained.
- A flurry of airline stock trading occurred just days before the attacks. $2.5 million of the profits have been left unclaimed for fear of discovery.
- There was a suspicious manipulation of passenger manifests and take off times. All four trans-atlantic flights were carrying 25-30% of capacity and took off within 15 mins. of each other. No hijackers names were mentioned the manifests of either.
- A long list of warnings from many global sources about an impending terrorist hit (including jets being used as flying bombs) were essentially ignored.
- FBI and CIA agents were stone-walled in their terrorist investigations before and after the "attacks".
- A great deal of eyewitness testimony has been suppressed or ignored.
- There's been a scandalous press blackout of the roughly 200 Israeli spies arrested and exported since 9/11, the largest spy ring in history.
- Clear "events of short duration" (explosions) were recorded at Columbia's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory seconds before the collapse of each tower.
- The fires in the rubble burnt for two months. Why? Surely the fires would have been dispersed and smothered by the vastness of the crumbling towers debris.
- The towers fell at a speed similar to free fall. Surely each intact floor would offer some resistance slowing the rate of collapse significantly.
- Years of negotiation between the Taliban and American based oil conglomerates disintegrated several weeks before the "attacks". These big-oil plans to run a pipeline through Afganistan have since become reality in the climate of fear and paranoia since 9/11.
- There are many stunning questions surrounding the collapse of WTC 7, a building only marginally damaged by tower one's collapse.
- Flight 93 's "plunge to Earth" is clouded in contradiction. Evidence of falsified cell-phone calls, debris scattered over an 8 mile area, the last 3 minutes of the flight recorder mysteriously blank and no discernable wreckage at the "crash site" are just a few peculiarities about Fl. 93's final moments
- Very suspicious hijacker evidence conveniently found after the "attacks", including a Hijacker passport surviving the horrendous inferno of the WTC, a note found at the Fl 93 crash site (!), and passports and Korans "mistakenly" forgotten at the Florida bars where the "hijackers" loudly celebrated their last few hours with lap-dances and anti-American rants.
- George Bush has clearly stated on two separate occasions since 9/11 that he watched on a monitor the collision of the first plane into the N. tower before entering the classroom to read to children that morning. The only known footage of that event was not available until hours later on in the day.
- Donald Rumsfeld, in an interview with Parade magazine, said the following; Here were talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filled with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similiar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center.
There is growing evidence that the attack on the Pentagon was wholly or in part a missile strike.
-Rudy Giuliani told Peter Jennings that he'd been ordered out of the building he was in near ground zero because the towers were about to collapse. How could anyone have known that when there's absolutely no precedent for it in history?
- Not one Israeli national was killed in the tower collapses despite 4,000 frantic phonecalls from worried friends and relatives.
- Five young israeli agents were arrested on 9/11 as they wildly celebrated attacks from across the river. They were trained in electronics and explosives, had fake passports, $4700. rolled up in a sock, were suspected of trying to blow up the G.W. Bridge, and were disguised as furniture movers, a ruse that could've helped them gain access to the towers to plant explosives. Their van(s) had traces of explosives within and their Israeli boss at "moving Co." fled to Israel days later.
- an Israeli spy cell was set up a block or two away from the "Muslim" terrorist flight students in Hollywood, Fla. The flight school they trained at has long been a center for CIA activities.
And this is just the short list!
No one has to have an advanced degree in anything to acknowledge (or investigate) the outrageous scam of 9/11. Its all right there for anyone to see. Do not allow yourself to be silenced.
Deepthroat told Bob Woodward..." Truth is, these guys really aren't very bright, and things got out of hand." You bet they did!



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 08:29 PM
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IMO - Iraq's petro-dollar.

The Euro.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Thje benefits from an angry America killing thier enemies and allowing Israel to help plunder the riches outweigh the deaths of a couple hundred unfortunate souls.


Has the outline been opened yet? No. Chances of it being opened soon? Slim.

Other than that, Id like an itemized list of "profits" and their dollar ammounts before I by into your racist diatribe.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 08:50 PM
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Racist diatribe? What, might I ask, are you smoking? Have I said anything racist? Hm...no, but then again, oh, I forgot.

Say anything bad about Israel and Zionism and it makes u a racist. Anti Semite.

Youll have to do better than that. Ive been around a bit, I dont cowdown to such accusations like some people do. I know where I stand.

www.csmonitor.com...

Theres your answer. Israel is reopening the pipeline. What israel wants israel gets. The pipeline was briefly opened right after the war, to test it out, and trouble shoot it for problems. I wouldnt be surprised if it hasnt already reopened.

Iraq was the single biggest local threat to Israel's security. Iraq had the best trained, equipped, and organized military in the Arab world. They kicked Iran's ass. They eventually would have came for Israel. They could have done it.

And look at Israels little war with the Palestinians. Boy, the IDF sure has gotten its kill rate up. Nice job with the assasinations. With America already paranoid and scared of terrorism, we certainly arent gonna give Israel any real grief if they blow up guys in wheelchairs.





posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
They kicked Iran's ass.




It was a stalemate until foreign nations (ie the US) decided to back Iraq (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). Iraq managed to gain ground late in the war, but it's economy and population was suffering. When Iran offered peace in 1988, Iraq agreed.

Iraq most certainly did not kick Iran's ass.



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 05:10 AM
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fall in line like a good drone


And you are not a drone, right ? you don't fall for anything.


For one, the elimination of thier biggest threat: Iraq


Iraq was as much threat to Israel as Panama is to United States; that is, it was no threat.

Hey, read your history: Arabs have repeately tried to fight Israelis, without success. And that was Israel vs all its neighbours. How come, then Iraq was a threat ?

And if Iraq attacked Israel, it would give an excuse not only to Americans but to everyone (Europe, Russia, China etc) to annihilate Iraq. The minute Iraq launched the first missile against Israel, Iraq would be history.

So I see no threat of Iraq to Israel.



For 2, they now have access to Iraqi oil, as the pipeline from Iraq to Israel has been opened for the first time since 1948


Any links to back this up ?

Israel could very well get oil from the Caspian Sea.


They also have the benefit of the worlds largest military industrial complex at thier beck and call eliminating any enemy that threatens the security of thier racist state.


So what are you suggesting ? that they should not protect their country ???!!!

If Sharon was like Hitler (i.e. conquer the world), he would already have done it, especially with such weak neighbours.


The Israelis are the racists here,its quite clear.


Yeah, right.


The terorists would never be the wiser on the true idenitiy of those Mossad agents.


So you are saying that Arabs are dumbasses so as that they could not pull something of this magnitude alone, and the only people able to do it are Israelis ? Is that a racist tone here, or what ?

What's the next step ? accusing the Mossad for the climate change ? :-)


Japanese Kamazied for thier country, not thier god


Nope, you are highly mistaken. They did it for their emperor, which they have as God on Earth. They are not allowed to see their emperor with their eyes, that's why when the emperor comes out, everyone bows down. And Japanese kamikazies shouted "Long Live the Emperor" when they did their acts (here is a link, if you do not believe me: mtmt.essortment.com...).


The Germans did similar things. Communists have suicided themselves for communism


No, they did not. Where have you read it ?


And Mossad agents would suicide themselves for Zionism. Plain and simple


Since your arguments about kamikazies are shoot down like paperplanes, it follows that this last argument also fells down.



The Israeli involvement in 9/11 becomes clear when one examines it further. They had everything to gain. Do you think the Israeli govornment cares about a couple hundred ordinary Jews on the streets who get blown up in retaliation? Hell no. Thje benefits from an angry America killing thier enemies and allowing Israel to help plunder the riches outweigh the deaths of a couple hundred unfortunate souls.


Aside from telling BS, you are also contradicting yourself. If the Israeli government is corrupt and does not care about its own people, then why they caused such international trouble for their safety ?

You are also underestimate Americans. You are saying that this country is run by Jews. What about all the others ? what are they ? are they puppets ? why ? do you have any evidence that they are puppets ? Bush is a puppet ? did you vote for a puppet ? you just woke up and realized that US is run by Jews ? was it run by Jews 13 years ago when Bush Sr did war on Iraq ? Does not history tell you something ? Did Americans help Saddam to rise to power in order to bring down the Sach ? are you stupid ? (that was a rhetorical question).



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by foodgoddess
(/11; "Conspiracy Fact"
by Web-Wender Sunday August 31, 2003 at 04:18 PM
[BIG SNIP]


Take a look around ATS.
Everything on your list has been discussed, most several times, and many have been "debunked."
An excellent place to start is with Seekerof's 9-11 Index

-B.



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 05:26 AM
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Say anything bad about Israel and Zionism and it makes u a racist. Anti Semite.


Say anything in favor of Israel, and you are a Zionist.


Theres your answer


The Christian Science Monitor ? pleeasseee!!! There is nothing scientific in Christianity, let alone some right-wing aryan brotherhood site that claims a pipeline is re-opening. I searched the internet, there are very few references to this topic.

Furthermore, Israel could have done this 13 years ago, when father Bush invaded Iraq.

(And why Iraq, come to think of it ? there are numerous oil sources in the middle east. )


Iraq was the single biggest local threat to Israel's security.


I have already proven to you that's a lie.


Iraq had the best trained, equipped, and organized military in the Arab world.


This super-duper military of yours chose to ...hide in the recent war against US. Or there was not one in the first place ?


They kicked Iran's (c). They eventually would have came for Israel. They could have done it.


BS call!!!! take attention everyone!!! THEY FOUGHT FOR 8 YEARS, GOD DAMN IT!!! how is that 'kicking Iran's ass' ?
Quit the speculation and speak with facts.


we certainly arent gonna give Israel any real grief if they blow up guys in wheelchairs.


The guy in the wheelchair was the one that put bombs on young children that blew themselves up in buses and restaurants.

Why Palestinians, all these years, do not organize an army and do normal battle with the Israelis ? and why they are so bent in having their state around Jerusalem ? and why Arabs don't help them ?



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 08:32 AM
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quote:

Why Palestinians, all these years, do not organize an army and do normal battle with the Israelis ? and why they are so bent in having their state around Jerusalem ? and why Arabs don't help them ?

Maybe they don't have the funds to do it!!
Maybe they don't have the support of the US!



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Racist diatribe? What, might I ask, are you smoking? Have I said anything racist? Hm...no, but then again, oh, I forgot.

Say anything bad about Israel and Zionism and it makes u a racist. Anti Semite.



Well as I remember you called the Israelis racists without some sort of explanation, so by logic one can presume your racist. Im not trying to insult you but when you accusse someone of being racist without fact, you are sometimes yourself racist.

Well I see the pipeline has been reopened, thats a legit response not "boohoo you called me racist", I called you racist for the reasons listed, not because you picked on Zionism, go ahead, I dont care if you say things about jews, thats not my problem, Im not jewish, but when you accusse someone of being racist you have the burden of proof, and you did not produce proof



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by masterp

Say anything bad about Israel and Zionism and it makes u a racist. Anti Semite.


Say anything in favor of Israel, and you are a Zionist.


Theres your answer


The Christian Science Monitor ? pleeasseee!!! There is nothing scientific in Christianity, let alone some right-wing aryan brotherhood site that claims a pipeline is re-opening. I searched the internet, there are very few references to this topic.

Furthermore, Israel could have done this 13 years ago, when father Bush invaded Iraq.

(And why Iraq, come to think of it ? there are numerous oil sources in the middle east. )


Iraq was the single biggest local threat to Israel's security.


I have already proven to you that's a lie.


Iraq had the best trained, equipped, and organized military in the Arab world.


This super-duper military of yours chose to ...hide in the recent war against US. Or there was not one in the first place ?


They kicked Iran's (c). They eventually would have came for Israel. They could have done it.


BS call!!!! take attention everyone!!! THEY FOUGHT FOR 8 YEARS, GOD DAMN IT!!! how is that 'kicking Iran's ass' ?
Quit the speculation and speak with facts.


we certainly arent gonna give Israel any real grief if they blow up guys in wheelchairs.


The guy in the wheelchair was the one that put bombs on young children that blew themselves up in buses and restaurants.

Why Palestinians, all these years, do not organize an army and do normal battle with the Israelis ? and why they are so bent in having their state around Jerusalem ? and why Arabs don't help them ?



Bush didnt invade Iraq 13 years ago, we kicked him out of Kuwait. otherwise, we wouldnt be in Iraq now.

Why cant the Palestinians organize an army? You need a STATE and a govornment and ALOT of money to organize an army, DUH!!!!!!!!!!!! And since the Israelis have basically bulldozed thier settlements, stolen thier land, and strip them of any state, and get all sorts of aid from America, well...............lol. Its a little hard for the Palestinians to do anything. Except make do with what they have. Bombs and rocks. VS Israeli guns and tanks.

The fact that the Iraqis managed an 8 year war with Iran, and had a standing military powerful enough to turn and take kuwait, should tell you something. if you can even see it.



Who fired a #load of Scuds during the first gulf war at israel? Whose nuclear reactor did the Israelis attack back in the early 80's? IRAQ.

Iraq had the only decent standing military, until we broke it down, in the middle east, and the only country that had the capabilities of firing off long range missiles at israel.

Agent Orange, really, I fail to see your logic, calling a bunch of racists racist makes me a racist? So, if you call the KKK a bunch of racists, that makes you....racist.

The mentality of some people. never ceases to amaze me.


Something to be proud of. Blowing up guys in wheelchairs. Typical Mossad.

If Israel didnt have the backing and support of the US, the Arab world would have chewed them up and ate them for lunch. Maybe thats where the Arab world has a problem....they dont have the good ol USA sending them ungodly amounts of money and weaponry. No where near what we give israel.


Justify why we give more financial aid to Israel than any other country, even though Israel is an Industrialized nation with a solid economy and living conditions?



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 04:16 PM
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I swear if i see this same opic aout Isreal and the Jews attempting to take over the world....I may be a tad naiive or something but why does it seem that everyone has a problem with Isreal. I myself can see both sides of the story between the palestinians and the Israelis. Theres plenty of blame to go around. Should Isreal be mowing down palestinian settlements? No. Should the palestinians be sending thier own citizens in to blow themselves up? No.Fact of the matter is, they would generate a lot more support if they didnt resort to those tatics. But what is so wrong with Isreal having its country at the site of it's historical birthplace and protecting it from threats? Anytime anyone says they should be allowed to, it turns into a plot of the Jews to control the world. If you can make claims about that, then you can reverse it and say that the palestinians are planning to control the world as soon as they get thier country established and begin to defend it. The fact of the matter is, any country in Isreal's position if they were dealing with the same type of threats would probably react in the same way. What are they supposed to do, let the palestinians continue to massacre thier people with suicide bombers? But that seems to get lost among plots of the Jews to take over the world.



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 04:56 PM
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The buildings did not collapse as a result of "fire" per se. Most people when thinking of a building being on fire look towards the building materials actually burning.

This was a wholly different situation. Huge planes, filled with fuel entered the buildings. The planes burned. The heat was far greater than a normal "building fire". Three floors buckled. Above those floors were more floors of great weight. When the three floors collapsed the gap closed with force. The downward inertia sent a shock wave thru the structures blowing the rivets. Kinda like what you see when a martial arts expert strikes a stack of 40 blocks and the shock wave splits them all.

Also, have we forgotten that they tried to bring the WTC down before with huge explosions in the parking garage?

If one wants to follow the trail of this maddness one must begin in Nasser's Eygpt. The formation of the Islamic Brotherhood and the decades long struggle to overthrow nonfundamentalist Islamic states.

Eventually you will come to the "good doctor" who has his arm up Bin Ladens back and uses this insane man as his puppet mouthpiece.

When the doctor left America and returned to the middle east he abandoned his old tactics and started with a new plan. Take over one country. Build training camps. Go out and force people to do your demands by violent terror against men, women, children and babies.

A handful of Islamic men, who were imprisoned in Islamic countries and tortured were filled with so much wrath they have accepted a "calling". Drive everyone who disagrees with them off "Holy Soil" or kill them.



posted on Apr, 28 2004 @ 04:57 PM
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I might do an op/ed on why the Middle East has a major problem about Israel tomorrow..



posted on Apr, 29 2004 @ 09:19 PM
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Well, I'm not going to contest much of anything, here, not being adequately certain of all of the truthful historical facts; however, will post some links to resources which may or do provide information that is variously relevant in the context of the posts of this forum.

Instead of providing one long post, this is going to be split up into shorter ones.

True Torah Jews - Jews Against Zionism www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

Quote: >

Got the link from the American IAP site, Islamic Association for Palestine. Both are new to me, and while I don't recall having yet read anything at IAP, what, and little it's been so far, was read at JAZ was enough to find that it seems to contain very important, realistic, and interesting information; imo. While not being certain of the accuracy, what they say at JAZ seems to align well with the fact that around 300, or more, American Jewish rabbis signed and sent a petition to Ariel Sharon during summer or fall 2003; pleading for the cessation of the Israeli government's treatment, terrorism, etc., towards Palestinians, for the Israeli government to establish peaceful co-existence.

I agree that the Palestinians should not commit suicide bombings of innocent Israelis, and that these actions are actually and extremely counter-productive attempts to punish Israelis. However, having recently read statistics giving the number of Israelis killed by such actions, compared to the number of Palestinians killed by the much more powerful and ruthless Israeli government and military forces, etc., well, it's much easier and more understandable to support the Palestinians. Innocents on both sides must be supported, but the conflict has been far worse for the Palestinians, many of whom only have rocks to fight with.

Palestinian children killed by Israel, by Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank, Apr 13 2004 english.aljazeera.net...
This gives the statistics referred to above.

Quote: >

No government should rule on the basis of religion, and the Israelis should not try to use the Bible to excuse their terrorism towards Palestinians; it's an unacceptable defence, for it is definitely not verifiable with God. Because no part of the Bible is actually verifiable with God, the Bible must be interpreted very carefully.

For Christians, we have certainty, enough anyway; knowing that we have no right or authority to use our religion in order to harm others in any manner; to discipline or apply limited harm in a context of self-defence, or when defending innocent others, maybe, or sure, but not to harm, certainly not to kill; and, Christ expressly stated to i/ensure that we keep state and religion separate matters. Christ said something to the effect of: "leave to Ceasar what is in his reign, while to God that which is in His", iow, keep church and state separate, don't mix the two, or confound one with the other. Furthermore, God is not the temporal ruler, and this is far too obvious for us to be confused about this reality.

The latter makes rather perfect sense, too, for our societies are multi-ethnic, multi-religious, etc., and governments must endeavor to carefully keep this reality in mind when creating and enforcing human laws. We can certainly refer to well developed and considered moral teachings taught in or as part of religious faiths, when considering what human laws are needed or justifiable, but we must be very careful to not impose against legitimate, enough anyway, liberties of others, or anyone. It is not acceptable to use religion to define laws which strike against what are actually legitimate human liberties that, simply, or solely, maybe not everyone in a particular society cares for or agrees with on a personal basis.

Governance must be Just, as humanly Just as we can feasibly render, for and towards all members of society.

Really, no one has a valid basis for supporting the Israeli government on the basis of the Old Testament, or any other Jewish religious laws, norms, or guidelines. Jerusalem and the temple there are religious matters and they should not be used nor accepted as justifiable/Just excuses for harming non-Jews, for which there are no Just reasons. Furthermore, Jewish religion, the truest one, has the Ten Commandments, amongst which are: "Only God Shall Thee Worship", no idolatory, like that which exists very much in CAPITALISM, "the people of the golden cow"; "Thou Shalt Not Kill"; and, "Thou Shalt Not Steal". The Israeli government, and people who support that government, have some serious waking up to do; hypocritically or incompetently trying to pretend that the OT can be used to support these rather terroristic acts, whilst simultaneously acting in contradiction with the very same OT. Neither the OT, nor any other part of the Bible, NT, while I also consider the Muslim Book following the NT as part of the universal Bible (if Christians want Jews to accept that the NT is part of our Bible, along with the OT, then we must recognize the same for Muslims, else be hypocrites and hegemons), cannot sensibly, Justly, be used in such extremely contradictory ways.

The very best thing humans can do is to strictly adhere to the principle of "do not unto others that which you would not want done unto you". This applies equally well for every human being, regardless of religious faith; else, the "law of causality" states that "what goes around may very well come back or be returned, in kind", in which case the hegemon has no right to complain; they surely can and do, but they have no right to do so.

However, the Palestinians involved in commanding suicide bombings definitely need to cease these acts which are bad for both sides, disastrously counter-productive. Neither side seems to care about all of the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle. The whole situation is a major, terrifying, horrifying, vicious cycle; and, Rachel Corrie, bulldozed to death by Israeli soldiers, who had no reason to not see her, was right, about that awful situation needing to be settled with peace.

Let me introduce readers who have not yet become aware of a certain practice some Jews, most likely Zionistic ones, have been found to use, instead of the True Torah, Law of Moses. This is about the Talmud, and it's multiple, diverse, versions, and it's a rather controversial topic; however, this cannot be contested, given that no one authoritatively contests Jews from referring to the Holocaust and blaming Germans; whilst it was really Jews unto Jews.

Come and Hear ... - An Educational Forum for the Examinations of
Religious Truth and Religious Tolerance
www.come-and-hear.com... It may be necessary to go to a section reserved for the topic of the Talmud, maybe; not recalling.

The above is the or one of the most comprehensive sites I've come across on this topic; although, am not an expert on it and thus will not vouch one way or another about the validity, accuracy, or lack thereof; and, that applies to all of these resources on the Talmud. However, what is said is at least realistic, albeit I haven't read any of these, completely; mostly bits (am not doing a master's or PhD thesis on this topic, so ..., but eventually want to get these entirely read).

The following are, I believe anyway, primarily about the bad, worst, version of the Talmud; the one referred to as the Jerusalem, as opposed to Babylonian, Talmud, I also believe to recall.

Talmud Unmasked www.biblebelievers.org.au...

Talmud Exposed 198.62.75.1...

The Longest Hatred, ed. Jane Birdwood 1991. On 'anti-Gentilism' www.biblebelievers.org.au...

The following are miscellaneous resources on, or at least including, the Talmud.

Israel Unveiled, by Marc Cohen www.geocities.com... I have read none of this, yet.

Torah >> Mishnah and Talmud www.askmoses.com...

NOTE: Although some, perhaps many, Jews will despise me for posting the above links on the Talmud, which is also covered by the JAZ site, to some extent anyway, these Talmuds have been acknowledged by Jewish rabbis, including American, and other experts on Jewish religion.

The Jerusalem or worst Talmud is wicked, bad, disgusting, but does seem to be very fitting with the attitudes and conduct of too many humans, including people in positions of "leadership", whom I'll leave unnamed. They do not care about the lives of other humans, and this has been extremely demonstrated for us all to witness, whilst there is no valid reason for living in denial of what is obvious. At the IAP site, which I checked to i/ensure it's up, available, there's a quotation on that homepage, quoted words of an Israeli official in 2000; and, it states that if the Israeli government deemed that it would be more effective to kill 2000 Palestinians, instead of 200, then this would be done; and, that is rather as per wicked Talmudic narcissism, psychosis, etc.

The Babylonian Talmud is much, far, better, less bad; however, it nonetheless remains pharisiatic in nature. That, oth, is not to criticize Jews whose faiths are based on this Talmud, pharisiatic law, because this RC Christian is certainly capable of agreeing that pharisiatic manners are not unique to Jews; also to a considerable number of Christians, Muslims, and possibly people of other religions to varying degrees. For RCs, f.e., the seven capital sins are rather pharisiatic doctrine, not really reflected in the teachings and examples of Christ; such as anger is not a capital sin, for Christ expressed, demonstrated, fairly serious anger; meanwhile, mischanneled or too extremely expressed anger can be bad, sinful. The same goes for the capital sin of pride; it's not sinful to be sanely, healthily proud, it only is when the pride is vane. And, of course, there's the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, for which there is inadequate information in the NT; there was Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, but Christ did not refer to them existing as a Holy Trinity, three persons in one, not per se anyway; he referred to God as his father, as well as ours, and to us as his brothers and sisters, and to his mother as being mother to us all. Christ said he was one with the Father, but we can be one with others in various ways; spouses one with each other through loyalty, me one with others in a common cause, Solidarity, etc. Lots of pharisiatic doctrines have been created, and certainly not only by Jews. Furthermore, the RC Church would probably, many enough priests would anyway, refuse to marry a Christian with a Jew, but Christ said nothing against Jewish marriages, and he purportedly changed several or more jars of water into wine for a Jewish wedding celebration. Christ only argued or fought against pharisiatic scribes and enforcers, and only when they were being pharisiatic; not with other Jewish rabbis and people. And, he would not fight against sane Muslims any more than he did - did not do - against anyone else. He did not fight against pagans, etc., and even complimented some of them. Definitely, he was solidly down-to-earth and non-narcissistic; down-to-earth enough that his teachings easily and quickly were spreadable, and are easily-enough understandable by any sane people.

We humans fight nonsensically over matters we cannot Justly argue or defend; and, this is a human trait, universally, that is, not restricted to any particular race, religion, sex, etc. All sane and knowledgeable people are aware of that, too. The rest are either awfully ignorant and allow it to be expressed arrogantly, or they're bigots, hypocrites; in both cases, acting as hegemons, "doing unto others that which they would not accept to be done unto themselves".

Really.


Sorry, to some degree anyway, for posting this lengthy post on the topic of Jewish religion(s), other religious outlooks, etc.; however, given the "feuding" going on in this forum, rather along this line or overall topic, it seemed appropriate to provide additionally related resources or references.



posted on Apr, 29 2004 @ 09:27 PM
link   

Sorry, to some degree anyway, for posting this lengthy post on the topic of Jewish religion(s), other religious outlooks, etc.; however, given the "feuding" going on in this forum, rather along this line or overall topic, it seemed appropriate to provide additionally related resources or references.


Apparently given from the side that you agree with, correct?


seekerof



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