It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Who told you to label god

page: 1
1

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 11 2009 @ 05:24 PM
link   
I don't usually get involved in religious debate and discussion, due to its divisive nature.

That being said im going to try and discern why people think their religion is correct and how they justify declaring other religions to be wrong.

As a child i was raised as southern baptist and from almost the beginning of my lifes memory i can remember how it just felt wrong. The stories of the bible are fantastic incredible and uplifting. But for me this is a problem. . . why the bible we read today?

The Bible


The Bible is the central religious text of Judaism and Christianity.[1] The exact composition of the Bible is dependent on the religious traditions of specific denominations. Modern Judaism generally recognizes a single set of canonical books known as the Tanakh, or Hebrew or Jewish Bible.[2] It comprises three parts: the Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Pentateuch or "Five Books of Moses"), the Prophets, and the Writings. It was primarily written in Hebrew with some small portions in Aramaic.

The Christian Bible includes the same books as the Tanakh (referred to in this context as the Old Testament), but usually in a different order, together with twenty-seven specifically Christian books collectively known as the New Testament. Those were originally written in Greek. Among some traditions, the Bible includes books that were not accepted in other traditions, often referred to as apocryphal. Eastern Orthodox Churches use all of the books that were incorporated into the Septuagint, to which they add the earliest Greek translation of the Deuterocanonicals;[3] Roman Catholics include seven of these books in their canon; and many Protestant Bibles follow the modern Jewish canon, excluding the additional books. Some editions of the Christian Bible have a separate Biblical apocrypha section for books not considered canonical.


en.wikipedia.org...

So the modern christian bible is a collection of texts that the catholic aristocracy decided was appropriate for public consumption. What. . . . . . who are a bunch of corrupt aristocrats to pick and choose what texts are proper. The entire christian doctrine is designed for one thing control

Qur'an


The Qur’an[1] (Arabic: القرآن‎ al-qur’ān, literally “the recitation”; also sometimes transliterated as Quran, Qur’ān, Koran, Alcoran or Al-Qur’ān) is the central religious text of Islam. Muslims believe the Qur’an to be the book of divine guidance and direction for mankind, and consider the original Arabic text to be the final revelation of God.[2][3][4][5]

Islam holds that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jibrīl (Gabriel) from 610 CE to his death in 632 CE.[2][6][7] Followers of Islam further believe that the Qur’an was written down by Muhammad's companions while he was alive, although the prime method of transmission was oral. It is maintained that in 633 CE, the written text was compiled, and in 653 CE it was standardized, distributed in the Islamic empire and produced in large numbers.[8] The present form of the Qur’an is regarded as God's revelation to Muhammad by Muslim believers. Academic scholars often consider it the original version authored or dictated by Muhammad.[9] Muslim tradition agrees that it was fixed in writing shortly after Muhammad's death by order of Umar and Abu Bakr.[10]


en.wikipedia.org...'an

Here again we have a book supposedly dictated to one man from a divine source then put together and standardized by a few. Why would a god of such wonder and might and power and infinite greatness rely on one man to spread his word to an entire planet at the time seperated by almost unconquerable distances. Again it comes down to the one thing the hirearchy desires control

The Torah


Jewish religious tradition ascribes authorship of the Torah to Moses through a process of divine inspiration. This view of Mosaic authorship is first found explicitly expressed in the Talmud, dating from the 3rd to the 6th centuries CE, and is based on textual analysis of passages in the Torah and the subsequent books of the Hebrew Bible. The Zohar, the most significant text in Jewish mysticism, states that the Torah was created prior to the creation of the world, and that it was used as the blueprint for Creation.[8] According to dating of the text by Orthodox rabbis the revelation of the Torah to Moses occurred in 1380 BCE at Mount Sinai.[citation needed] Contemporary secular biblical scholars date the completion of the Torah, as well as the prophets and the historical books, no earlier than the Persian period (539 to 334 BCE).[9] Scholarly discussion for much of the 20th century was principally couched in terms of the documentary hypothesis, according to which the Torah is a synthesis of documents from a small number of originally independent sources.


en.wikipedia.org...

here again we have a book dictated to one man by a divine source. . . . or is it? It would seem today that scholars cant even accurately attribute its writings to anyone in particular. So we now have three books which are made of many of the same alligories the same characters and the same message. . . . convert or kill the heathens. . . why kill no believers non conformists? you guessed it control

More people have died in the name of religious control than any other single cause in history. more specifically in the name of christianity jewdaism and islam.

Three seperate religions killing eachother over the same set of principles of control. Three religions based on one underlying storyline that cannot be attributed with any certainty to a specific source.

My God

Having showed my distaste for organized religion please allow me to let you know what i believe about God.

Firstly everything was created. I hold firm to the beliefe that everything must have been created, no known physical principle is known to create raw energy. My next belief is that the universe is big, really big. In all the vastness of space and time god can be found everywhere. To see god you only meerly need to look around. All around us there is energy matter beauty complexity created from simplicity.

continued in next post. . . . .


[edit on 11-5-2009 by constantwonder]




posted on May, 11 2009 @ 05:39 PM
link   
Quite simply if they ( TPTB) didn't make us play the name game then we would all realize that we were brothers worshiping the same God and they wouldn't be able to divide us and creat discord , as they do .



posted on May, 11 2009 @ 05:47 PM
link   
The most important belief i have is that god does indeed "play dice". Free will is a gift. You can choose your path you dictate your own life and this is the way it was meant to be. We were not givin this great gift from god to turn around and give it back to any man. Decency, respect, honesty, fair mindedness do not need to be dictated. Taking life from anyone for any reason is wrong. You don't have the right to say who has a right to live and who does not.

God is not a judge. . . god breaths life into the universe gave us free will and an internal sence of lifes sanctity. We are here to add to the beauty of the universe as brothers and sisters at harmony with one another. I do not believe that a divine being all knowing and great would put us here and set us against one another by trying to put labels on his work. This is the life we have been givin to do with what we will. God doesnt want us to squander our brotherhood to destroy one another to fight amongst ourselves in his name. This is a dangerous foolhardy belief.

An eye for an eye makes a whole world blind

Fighting amongst ourselves is our doing not gods. It is my personal belief that the most offensive thing man can do to god is kill in his name. God does not smite me when i swear, nor does he strike me down for questioning religious authority, he expects us to choose nothing more nothing less. To offend god by saying #, or not choosing a specific church, or by being "gay", or straight, or left brained or right does not happen, we are always loved and a life giving god in my mind doesnt condemn his creation for being what it is.

So Whats the Point

The point im afraid is not a new one nor is it anything extreme. It is this ~
Life has been givin to us all muslim christian jew buddhist daoist everyone. No one has all the answers its supposed to be an adventure a learning experience our soul purpose is to experince the gift god has givin us. Not to be dictated not to be controlled but to be free to be me to be mankind.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by constantwonder]



posted on May, 11 2009 @ 05:49 PM
link   
Truth is universal. Only those who focus on the literal and idols see differences. If people instead focused on the understandings each religion expressed, then they would start to see they are based on the same understandings.

Is math 1+1=2, or is math the understanding that is used to express 1+1=2?

Thus, the messengers, times, places and cultures are just expressions of a universal understanding. But it is those who just accept "1+1=2" or "1+4=5" who do not understand. And so they fight back and forth playing the evil for one another, each screaming they are true, just look. But they all blind and have no understanding.

So it's like Christianity is a 1+1=2, and Islam is like a 3+5=8, and Judaism is a 4+1=5. While each of these is a true expression in themselves, if you can only focus on the literal you will forever be blind.

Kind of like how 1 culture and language may say a word one way, and we may use another word. Even though there may be 2 words, they are still talking about the same tree.

And so ignorantly, each works to be the "1 world religion" to force 1 of the literals forward, all the while in doing so they completely ignore the understanding and fail to understand. Thus, walking a path of death and destruction and so forth, IE: deceived.

This is btw pretty much the moral of the story regarding the tower of babel. Man was united under a common language and culture. So everyone just said 1+1=2, and there was not other cultures. People think this story is about mankind being enslaved, but the truth of the matter is if mankind was allowed out into heaven at that time, while being united in the literal but lacking understanding, then as soon as they came across someone who didn't say 1+1=2 and share that culture, they would start to war and enslave that other race culture.

And this is proven in what happens after, as the languages and cultures get mixed and since there is no longer any unity under a 1+1=2 they started to war and enslave each other. Nobody forced them to do this, but they did so because they could only see the literal.

So if mankind becomes united once again under a common culture and sticks to a single expression without understanding, the situation will rear it's head again. AKA the 1 world religion/government and so forth.

Here's to hoping people get a clue.



[edit on 11-5-2009 by badmedia]



posted on May, 11 2009 @ 05:59 PM
link   
I thought it was real interesting what the Pleadians supposedly told Billy Meier:

That NONE of the religions are teaching the truth. I have had this same gut instinct feeling since I was old enough to know what religion was. Since God is an abstract concept, trying to describe such in words only leads to error. And that's why I have a hard time reading human written words on the subject. I seem to do better with direct relationship contact. I.E., meditation, blanking of the mind, losing the words, and... Heh. Can't describe it- no words.



posted on May, 11 2009 @ 06:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by constantwonder
The most important belief i have is that god does indeed "play dice". Free will is a gift. You can choose your path you dictate your own life and this is the way it was meant to be. We were not givin this great gift from god to turn around and give it back to any man. Decency, respect, honesty, fair mindedness do not need to be dictated. Taking life from anyone for any reason is wrong. You don't have the right to say who has a right to live and who does not.


Actually, Einstein is right, and quantum physics is right at the same time.


Think about it like this. In order for free will to exist, then all possibilities must exist. If all possibilities do not exist, then free will is by default no longer available. As well, in order for god to be all knowing, this means god as well must know all that is possible. So in this state, there is no time etc, as all is already known. Nothing new to happen. So there isn't really any dice, except the ones we roll.

But you are dead on about not having any right to take the free will of another man. If you love something - then you set it free. If it loves you, then it will come back. To love another as yourself, one must allow and respect the free will of others.

Sins are regarded as sins against god, because it is god within that gives us consciousness and such, so that we can be more than things which operate off action and reaction. Thus, when you do not allow the free will of others, you are not loving god within them. Jesus would say this is what all the laws and prophets hang on.



God is not a judge. . . god breaths life into the universe gave us free will and an internal sence of lifes sanctity. We are here to add to the beauty of the universe as brothers and sisters at harmony with one another. I do not believe that a divine being all knowing and great would put us here and set us against one another by trying to put labels on his work. This is the life we have been givin to do with what we will. God doesnt want us to squander our brotherhood to destroy one another to fight amongst ourselves in his name. This is a dangerous foolhardy belief.


You are right, god does not judge or punish directly. Our choices and actions do that. As all possibilities exist and the universe is static, one can come to realize that karma and reap what you sow etc are all based on that our choices determine the path. What future you go to basically rides on your choices, although it does appear at some point these all merge and we are dependent on each other. Thus why it doesn't do any good to give lip service to something if you don't follow the example, because your choices will be what determines your path, not what your mouth says.



An eye for an eye makes a whole world blind

Fighting amongst ourselves is our doing not gods. It is my personal belief that the most offensive thing man can do to god is kill in his name. God does not smite me when i swear, nor does he strike me down for questioning religious authority, he expects us to choose nothing more nothing less. To offend god by saying #, or not choosing a specific church, or by being "gay", or straight, or left brained or right does not happen, we are always loved and a life giving god in my mind doesnt condemn his creation for being what it is.


The thing people forget about eye for an eye is "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord". Thus, if you kill a man who killed, it is seen as 2 sins, not just 1. People who think they are justified are just hypocrites.



So Whats the Point

The point im afraid is not a new one nor is it anything extreme. It is this ~
Life has been givin to us all muslim christian jew buddhist daoist everyone. No one has all the answers its supposed to be an adventure a learning experience our soul purpose is to experince the gift god has givin us. Not to be dictated not to be controlled but to be free to be me to be mankind.


If one expects to live in a free society, then one must be willing to allow the freedom of others. People are duped because they think the laws that get passed and such are good because they agree with. As far as they are concerned, they are still free to do whatever. Of course, as soon as they should happen to change their mind they will quickly find out how not free they are.

Probably not going to agree 100%, but I can see you are using reason rather than acceptance.



posted on May, 11 2009 @ 06:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by badmedia
Only those who focus on the literal and idols see differences. If people instead focused on the understandings each religion expressed, then they would start to see they are based on the same understandings.



Interpreting what something "means" will always lead to disagreement if there is ambiguity in your holy text of choice.

Why is it that the "word of god" is anything but clear and concise .

The literal word of god would/should leave no such doubt , no need to interpret , clear as day to its meaning . ............

If god had held off another 2000 years before sending his only son , we could be watching " The Miracles of Jesus " ...... on DVD.

Larry King could interview Jesus all week .

Scientists could turn themselves in knots with the data , raising the dead , water into wine , walking on water .etc etc etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A strange way of communicating your message/word , if you are an omnipotent God .

Worth considering IMHO.





posted on May, 11 2009 @ 09:43 PM
link   
 


off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on May, 11 2009 @ 10:24 PM
link   
reply to post by UmbraSumus
 


One may think that having Jesus on DVD might convince a few more people, but if you haven't read the Lazarus and Dives parable you can check it out at Wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org...

Here's two small sections from it. The whole thing isn't much larger.

"The rich man also died and was buried. In Hell."....

"I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 'No, Father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

The idea of the story is that the truth is in understanding the word. If you've read the word and you still don't believe then you'll never be convinced. He could raise the dead (which he did), cure all disease, or make DVDs of miracles, but it's not going to matter. You're defiant against the idea in the first place. No matter what evidence is thrown you'll just disregard it is the basis of the parable.

Just like people do nowadays. Do we not have video or pictures of UFOs? Ghosts? Demons? Of course we do, but you'll say it's fake. A scientist that does tests, someone will say the scientist had confirmation bias.

It doesn't matter. If the word isn't enough for you then no amount of evidence ever will be no matter how good it is. That's basically a subplot of the story if you will.



posted on May, 11 2009 @ 11:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by tinfoilman
Do we not have video or pictures of UFOs? Ghosts? Demons? Of course we do, but you'll say it's fake. A scientist that does tests, someone will say the scientist had confirmation bias.


So we should all believe in UFOs, ghosts, demons and Jesus?
Because there are pictures of them?


I prefer Buddha's philosophy of carefully discerning what you really do KNOW and what you don't know.

Any god who would send me to hell for having an open mind is a god I'd choose not to spend eternity with anyway.



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 12:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by Kailassa

Originally posted by tinfoilman
Do we not have video or pictures of UFOs? Ghosts? Demons? Of course we do, but you'll say it's fake. A scientist that does tests, someone will say the scientist had confirmation bias.


So we should all believe in UFOs, ghosts, demons and Jesus?
Because there are pictures of them?


I prefer Buddha's philosophy of carefully discerning what you really do KNOW and what you don't know.

Any god who would send me to hell for having an open mind is a god I'd choose not to spend eternity with anyway.


The point wasn't that you should believe everything you see. Even if we had evidence it may very well be fake. We're actually trying to make the same point here I think in that regards. That video evidence isn't going to make us believe anymore than if we didn't have video evidence because video evidence can be faked. So, why even bother asking for it?

Just like you said...

"So we should all believe in UFOs, ghosts, demons and Jesus?
Because there are pictures of them?"

So see, you kind of prove my point. Even if I had a DVD with Jesus performing miracles on it, it's a waste of time because it's not going to convince you anymore than if I didn't have the DVD is it?

See, told ya!
lol. j/k. I'm not trying to troll you.

The point isn't that it's true, it's that to believe it one has to take it on faith because if you can't no amount of evidence is going to change your mind. For one, there is no evidence that God exists, but more importantly we see that even if there was, it wouldn't make a difference to anyone. They would just deny it.

Just look at the global warming deniers. Even scientific evidence isn't going to convince a person that's already made up their mind to not believe it.

Now I don't know if there's really a God or not, but the point is nobody can prove it to you. Anything that doesn't fit with your view you'll just toss out and say it isn't true regardless of if it is or isn't. So why bother pestering God for evidence? You wouldn't believe it anyway is the point. Nor should you because we know video evidence can be faked. So, why even waste our time being concerned with if we have it or not is the point.



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 01:13 AM
link   
reply to post by tinfoilman
 


Now I understand.
Seems like we're on the same page, or pretty close.

The important thing is that we treat each others beliefs/disbeliefs with respect, provided they are not teaching contempt or violence.

- And look after this beautiful planet that is in our care.



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 02:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by Kailassa
reply to post by tinfoilman
 


Now I understand.
Seems like we're on the same page, or pretty close.

The important thing is that we treat each others beliefs/disbeliefs with respect, provided they are not teaching contempt or violence.

- And look after this beautiful planet that is in our care.



Yeah I'm not trying to force anyone to believe. I'm not like that. It's just I spend a lot of time reading religious texts and sometimes someone happens to ask a question that one of the texts actually attempts to answer. So, I'll post it up cause I know right where to look a lot of times. Doesn't mean I always agree with it though. I do agree with what I posted this time, but it's really just here is what it says so let's discuss it or here's what I think the answer is. Or sometimes just trying to explain the theory behind it as logically as I can if I agree or not.



new topics

top topics



 
1

log in

join