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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 02:49 AM by ElectricUniverse
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reply to post by Phage
You are really taking this to a point that is ridiculous....
Are Solar magnetic reversals not part of Solar activity?....
During Solar reversals are there no changes in the Sun's magnetic field?....
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 03:24 AM by Phage
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
I don't think it's ridiculous. What I am asking gets back to the question of causation.
Solar magnetic reversals coincide with the solar max. There is a peak in solar activity at the time of the reversal. The cause/effect relationship of
this phenomenon has not been established. Does the increase in activity cause the switch or vice versa? I don't know. I don't think anyone does.
We do know that the peak in solar activity has a direct relationship to the frequency of geomagnetic disturbances. If the supposed correlation of
human health (and behavior) to the solar cycle exists, it is only further supposition to claim that it is caused by the solar magnetic reversal rather
than the increase in geomagnetic activity.
Since geomagnetic forces on Earth's surface are magnitudes greater than the magnetic forces exerted by the Sun (virtually undetectable), it makes
little sense to claim that there is a direct causal effect between solar magnetic reversals and human health.
As you have shown, a direct relationship between geomagnetic activity and human health (and behavior) may exist (though the mechanism is unknown) but
any such effect should occur during periods of high solar activity whether or not they occur at a time of solar magnetic reversal. If the magnetic
reversal is the cause, the rate of increase would be independent of the level of solar activity. Just as many more people would die of heart attacks
during a slack solar max as during an extremely active one. How, if at all, do the studies you cite address this? The last article you link speaks
only of geomagnetic storms, not solar magnetic reversals. Judging from the abstracts, none of the studies posit the magnetic reversals as being
causative.
You seem to be saying that solar activity and the resultant geomagnetic activity is the same as a solar magnetic reversal. It is not. My statement was
specific to solar magnetic reversals.
[edit on 5/12/2009 by Phage]
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 03:45 AM by ElectricUniverse
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reply to post by Phage
Now you are making baseless claims with nothing to back them up except your imagination.
Seriously, there is no point in discussing topics such as this to some people who just want to believe whatever they want to, even if evidence against
their claims is presented.
[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 04:10 AM by ElectricUniverse
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Male MID rates are in general higher than female rates and the difference increases as the geomagnetic perturbation increases. The age group with the
lowest MID incidence is 25 to 44 years, the age group of 65 years is the most vulnerable. We conclude that solar activity does affect MID at
low geomagnetic latitudes and that the solar maximum is the most hazardous time for MID incidence.
www.springerlink.com...
2002: Breus T K; Pimenov K Yu; Cornélissen G; Halberg E; Syutkina E V; Baevsky R M; Petrov V M; Orth-Gómer K; Akerstedt T; Otsuka K; Watanabe Y;
Chibisov S M
The biological effects of solar activity.
Biomedicine & pharmacotherapy = Biomédecine & pharmacothérapie 2002;56 Suppl 2():273s-283s.
The synchronization of biological circadian and circannual rhythms is broadly viewed as a result of photic solar effects. Evidence for non-photic
solar effects on biota is also slowly being recognized. The ultrastructure of cardiomyocytes from rabbits, the time structure of blood
pressure and heart rate of neonates, and the heart rate variability of human adults on earth and in space were examined during magnetically disturbed
and quiet days, as were morbidity statistics. Alterations in both the about-daily (circadian) and about-weekly (circaseptan) components are observed
during disturbed vs. quite days. The about-weekly period of neonatal blood pressure correlates with that of the local geomagnetic disturbance index K.
Circaseptans which are seen early in human life and in various other forms of life, including unicells, may provide information about the possible
site(s) of lifes origins from an integrative as well as adaptive evolutionary perspective.
www.biomedexperts.com...
Maybe we should stick to what the evidence says, and not make wild speculation with nothing to back these wild speculations.
[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 04:28 AM by ElectricUniverse
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Anyway the topic is getting derailed. I just posted facts to refute a claim someone made which is wrong. I dind't want to get into an argument
discussing the claims of someone which is completely different to what the evidence says.
Let's just agree there are people who want to believe whatever they want to despite what the evidence says.
[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 05:44 AM by questioningall
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Originally posted by ledhead
very interesting read. thanks for everyones contributions. one question however...in the OP, you gave a link to a site that provides up to the minute
data on the earths magnetic field. very interesting how it seems to change every time you reload the page. im very uninformed on the magnetosphere and
what those charts represent. the changes seem to be quite drastic sometimes, so can someone explain what those changes mean?
It is because it takes a picture every 20 minutes - look at the bottom you will see the dates with times of the pictures.
Hope that helps.
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 06:26 AM by questioningall
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Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Does anyone know if the changing magnetisfier causes headaches on the right frontal side of the brain?
2 months ago, I know I had a huge headache and I looked at many forums and many many people were having headaches also - that was when the magnetic
field had collapsed, which the pictures show in the main OP.
One thing I found about one member who is posting here - that same member vehemently denied anything was wrong with the magnetosphere in the other
thread 2 months ago. The member kept doing every thing in their power to derail the thread and take it off topic, besides taking things down to a
small one word or two posted, instead of looking at the big picture and discussing what is going on with it. I stopped taking it down to that
member's level. The intent and absolute determination on that members attempts to derail the other magnetosphere made me question - Why? Why work
it so hard and especially ignore the pictures posted which showed something was not right with the magnetosphere? Also - everything posted was also
taken down to a one word or two level to counter the information as a whole. In saying that, I would advice to not let the member take hold of the
thread and let that member post whatever denying anything going on - and the rest of us can just ignore those postings. Also made me question - why
some are so insistent on others not seeing and discovering something is happening with the magnetosphere? What is the fear of information getting out
to the public that our magnetosphere has acted weird at times?
An interesting article:
link: physicsworld.com...
Researchers in France have developed a new model of Earth’s magnetic field that includes a simple explanation for why it has flipped direction
many times throughout Earth history.
Most geophysicists agree that the main component of Earth’s magnetic field is generated by convection currents in the molten iron of the planet’s
core. This dipole field — which defines the Earth’s magnetic poles — has reversed polarity tens of thousand of times in the past. We know this
because ancient field configurations are “frozen” into the rocks, as magnetic particles align with field lines.
A geomagnetic field reversal takes approximately 10, 000 years — a very short period on a geological timescale — during which time, the field
drops to approximately 10 percent of its normal intensity. In previous models, fluctuations in the flow of molten iron “switch off” the main
dipole component and then regenerate it with the opposite polarity.
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 06:51 AM by undiscoveredsoul
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I don't understand ANY of this...I have seen and read through two of these threads now and I still don't get what the deal is. All this scientific
talk is really hard for a common person like me to grasp....I thought the magnetosphere just fluctuated naturally so why the "watch" I also thought
the sun was at minimum with no activity so therefore the fluctuations on the magnetosphere would be slim to none...so are you all saying that it(the
magnetosphere) is going all wonky without the help of solar flares and all that? Please help me to understand exactly what ya'll are trying to get at
here. Yes I've looked at the pictures but I'm sorry pics of different colored squiggly lines really don't tell me anything. Is there anyone out
there who dumb the science down a bit so I might understand (without the "you're all gonna die" hype please)
thanks!
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 06:52 AM by questioningall
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Another interesting article I have found.
wattsupwiththat.com...
The two fields should reinforce one another, strengthening Earth’s magnetic defenses and slamming the door shut on the solar wind. In the
language of space physics, a north-pointing solar magnetic field is called a “northern IMF” and it is synonymous with shields up!
“So, you can imagine our surprise when a northern IMF came along and shields went down instead,” says Sibeck. “This completely overturns our
understanding of things.”
The years ahead could be especially lively. Raeder explains: “We’re entering Solar Cycle 24. For reasons not fully understood, CMEs in
even-numbered solar cycles (like 24) tend to hit Earth with a leading edge that is magnetized north. Such a CME should open a breach and load the
magnetosphere with plasma just before the storm gets underway. It’s the perfect sequence for a really big event.”
Sibeck agrees. “This could result in stronger geomagnetic storms than we have seen in many years.”
Watch the website with the magnetosphere pictures - also the first picture put up in the OP from yesterday - you can see some yellow on the right side
- showing the Earth was beginning to be affected by a solar wind - yet our magnetosphere was not completely flared out - it was still balled up.
First we have the interplanetary magnetic field that took an abrupt dive in October 2005 and has not recovered since and remains at very low
level:
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 06:56 AM by ChemBreather
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Breach
Dec. 16, 2008: NASA's five THEMIS spacecraft have discovered a breach in Earth's magnetic field ten times larger than anything previously thought to
exist. Solar wind can flow in through the opening to "load up" the magnetosphere for powerful geomagnetic storms. But the breach itself is not the
biggest surprise. Researchers are even more amazed at the strange and unexpected way it forms, overturning long-held ideas of space physics.
"At first I didn't believe it," says THEMIS project scientist David Sibeck of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "This finding fundamentally alters
our understanding of the solar wind-magnetosphere interaction."
The magnetosphere is a bubble of magnetism that surrounds Earth and protects us from solar wind. Exploring the bubble is a key goal of the THEMIS
mission, launched in February 2007. The big discovery came on June 3, 2007, when the five probes serendipitously flew through the breach just as it
was opening. Onboard sensors recorded a torrent of solar wind particles streaming into the magnetosphere, signaling an event of unexpected size and
importance.
"The opening was huge—four times wider than Earth itself," says Wenhui Li, a space physicist at the University of New Hampshire who has been
analyzing the data. Li's colleague Jimmy Raeder, also of New Hampshire, says "1027 particles per second were flowing into the
magnetosphere—that's a 1 followed by 27 zeros. This kind of influx is an order of magnitude greater than what we thought was possible."
As we can read here, the 'experts' in he field seems to have no clue on have the magnetosphere works, so I dont take the word of any one here making
this out to be 'nothing'.
it is gonna be chaos every where if power grid on tele comunications goes out , dont make it out to be any less.. People are not gonna sitt quite in
theyr homes when they don't know what is coing on, remember there are radiation to think of too, it is kind of harmful, and if the heliosphere is in
trouble, we futhermore have that radiation too...
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 07:21 AM by questioningall
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reply to post by undiscoveredsoul
First no one said anywhere in this thread "you are gonna die"! So, lets get that fact straight.
here is a site with an explaination and links to other science sites about it:
www.crystalinks.com...
Magnetic Field Decay
The earth's magnetic field strength was measured by Carl Friedrich Gauss in 1835 and has been repeatedly measured since then, showing an exponential
decay with a half-life of about 1400 years. This could also be stated as a relative decay of about 10% to 15% over the last 150 years.
Magnetic-Shield Cracks Found; Big Solar Storms Expected news.nationalgeographic.com... National
Geographic - December 17, 2008
An unexpected, thick layer of solar particles inside Earth's magnetic field suggests there are huge breaches in our planet's solar defenses. These
breaches indicate that during the next period of high solar activity, due to start in 2012, Earth will experience some of the worst solar storms seen
in decades.
another article: news.nationalgeographic.com...
Rapid changes in the churning movement of Earth's liquid outer core are weakening the magnetic field in some regions of the planet's surface, a
new study says.
"What is so surprising is that rapid, almost sudden, changes take place in the Earth's magnetic field," said study co-author Nils Olsen, a
geophysicist at the Danish National Space Center in Copenhagen.
The findings suggest similarly quick changes are simultaneously occurring in the liquid metal, 1,900 miles (3,000 kilometers) below the surface, he
said.
Flip-Flop
Fluctuations in the magnetic field have occurred in several far-flung regions of Earth, the researchers found.
In 2003 scientists found pronounced changes in the magnetic field in the Australasian region. In 2004, however, the changes were focused on Southern
Africa.
The changes "may suggest the possibility of an upcoming reversal of the geomagnetic field," said study co-author Mioara Mandea, a scientist at the
German Research Centre for Geosciences in Potsdam.
Earth's magnetic field has reversed hundreds of times over the past billion years, and the process could take thousands of years to complete.
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 07:28 AM by undiscoveredsoul
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Thanks for the reply and please know.... that comment was not meant as a direct insult or anything it was just meant as... well, hell I just mean
nature is scary enough and this site at times seems to verge on panic so I just wanted to understand FACTS and not hypothesis... if that makes
sense... I am going to follow the links you gave me and hope that it helps me understand a bit more about this whole magnetosphere watching
thing....
now someone has brought up a heliosphere and i don't know what that is.... I think nature is so amazing but yet at the same time, as fragile as we
are scary and I like to try to at least be intelligently informed about whats going on outside of my little cul-de-sac but it all makes my head
hurt....
[edit on 5/12/2009 by undiscoveredsoul]
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 07:35 AM by Eye of Horus
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Thanks for the info on the headaches. One other question to the big brain guys which were bickering with each other over stuff us "normals" have no
idea what there arguing about  Question. The closer we get to galactic center will there be more problems with brain activity? Your thoughts?
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 07:40 AM by questioningall
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reply to post by undiscoveredsoul
heliosphere is from the sun link:
www.telegraph.co.uk...
Sun's protective 'bubble' is shrinking
The protective bubble around the sun that helps to shield the Earth from harmful interstellar radiation is shrinking and getting weaker, Nasa
scientists have warned.
New data has revealed that the heliosphere, the protective shield of energy that surrounds our solar system, has weakened by 25 per cent over the past
decade and is now at it lowest level since the space race began 50 years ago.
Scientists are baffled at what could be causing the barrier to shrink in this way and are to launch mission to study the heliosphere.
The heliosphere is created by the solar wind, a combination of electrically charged particles and magnetic fields that emanate a more than a
million miles an hour from the sun, meet the intergalactic gas that fills the gaps in space between solar systems.
If the heliosphere continues to weaken, scientists fear that the amount of cosmic radiation reaching the inner parts of our solar system,
including Earth, will increase.
This could result in growing levels of disruption to electrical equipment, damage satellites and potentially even harm life on Earth.
But Dr McComas added that it was still unclear exactly what would happen if the heliosphere continued to weaken or what even what the timescale for
changes in the heliosphere are.
He said: “There is no imminent danger, but it is hard to know what the future holds. Certainly if the solar wind pressure was to continue to go down
and the heliosphere were to almost evaporate then we would be in this sea of galactic cosmic rays. That could have some large effects.
“It is likely that there are natural variations in solar wind pressure and over time it will either stabilise or start going back up.”
so as you see the Heliosphere comes from the sun - it protects our solar system - it has been shrinking - in the mean time our magnetosphere has been
shrinking.
All in all - scientist have no direct explaination to the reasonings why it is ocurring. I know last year I had read somewhere that scientist feel an
"outside" source was affecting the sun and the Earth besides all the other planets in the solar system. I can not find that article anymore - it
may have been "scrubbed".
Hope that helps - and you understand what the difference is now.
[edit on 12-5-2009 by questioningall]
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 07:57 AM by questioningall
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reply to post by Eye of Horus
Some claim there will be huge problems with it - the milky way has a strong magnetic field - from what I have read - as we get into it - we are going
to be severly affected -
interesting enough - here is an article that seems to have been "scrubbed' from the internet also - the link does not work to go to the article
anymore - but here is what it said on the "digg" site.
digg.com...
Our Solar System's Deadly Journey Through the Milky Way
dailygalaxy.com — Professor William Napier and Dr Janaki Wickramasinghe have completed computer simulations of the motion of the Sun in our outer
spiral-arm location in the Milky Way (image left of spiral arms). These models reveal a regular oscillation through the central galactic plane, where
the surrounding dust clouds are the densest.
www.dailygalaxy.com...
very interesting articles at the above site, plus I found the above article at the site - that does not work from the digg site anymore.
The sun is about 26,000 light-years from the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, which is about 80,000 to 120,000 light-years across (and less than 7,000
light-years thick). We are located on on one of its spiral arms, out towards the edge. It takes the sun -and our solar system- roughly 200-250 million
years to orbit once around the Milky Way. In this orbit, we are traveling at a velocity of about 155 miles/sec (250 km/sec).
Professors Medvedev and Melott of the University of Kansas have a different theory based on the same regular motion. As the Sun ventures out
"above" the galactic plane, it becomes increasingly exposed to the cosmic ray generating shock front that the Milky Way creates as it ploughs
through space. As we get closer to this point of maximum exposure, leaving the shielding of the thick galactic disk behind, the Kansas researchers
hold that the increasing radiation destroys many higher species, forcing another evolutionary epoch. This theory also matches in time with the
dinosaur extinction - and it's nice to see theories for that from Kansas not based on "an angry bearded man in the sky did it".
I will find more about our entry in the milky way band.
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 08:54 AM by questioningall
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Wow - very interesting - no pictures up on site of magnetosphere!
Now I find this VERY interesting - the pictures of the magnetosphere are not available now - it still show the pressure etc. but NO pictures!
Maybe a glitch is happening - hhmmm...
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 04:17 PM by timfix
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how do you know that the breach has healed itself?
i wasn't aware of that it had, otherwise i wouldn't of posted such info.
so if that occured then the powerouts want be a issue and the internet will live another day/year(s)
i figure that if et contact occurs that they'd want our satellites fully functional: )
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 05:32 PM by elfie
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reply to post by Eye of Horus
As best as has been determined our solar system lies within an arm of The Milky Way approximately 2/3-3/4 of the way out.
www.enchantedlearning.com...
www.space.com...
media-2.web.britannica.com...
Though I've heard the phrase crossing the galactic center I can't get an image of what is meant by this. The galaxy continues to rotate but
I need a description of this how crossing is to be accomplished in order to picture it. Can anyone help?
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 05:44 PM by ub1476
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 06:20 PM by 11andrew34
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Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
A magnetic storm is not dangerous for healthy people.
www.spacedaily.com...
The bolded is exactly the point I was getting to. Myocardial Infarction(Heart Attack) and Sudden Cardiac Death(Cardiac Arrest) are not the result of
space weather. If heart disease wasn't prevalent, this discussion would be moot.
It's like blaming a gun for a homicide......
The gun for homicide is a terrible analogy...not only does it not fit at all, it even drags in an irrelevant and even more controversial debate.
A much better comparison is a heat wave. It's exactly like a heat wave.
A heat wave is not dangerous for "healthy people." Well, except a heat wave has indeed killed plenty of very healthy people including pro athletes.
It's hard to say who a heat wave killed and who was going to die anyway, but when a bunch more people than normal drop dead during a heat wave...yes,
you can trot out the 'correlation is not causation' talking point. Sometimes though, that makes you a hand waving fool.
The truth is, there is NO WAY that the state of the magnetosphere could NOT have a significant and measurable effect on human health. There is no
debate possible on that point, the only thing to do is go out and get the data to know what it is.
[edit on 12-5-2009 by 11andrew34]
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