Magnetosphere Watch Thread - Pictures - Latest Information - , page 4

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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The solar cycle may have a direct correlation to the Earth's magnetic pole reversals but so far we have been unable to quantify/qualify it. We know that the solar cycles appear to be regular (11 & 22 years). Earth's geomagnetic reversals are not tied to the same short cycles, but seem to occur in hundreds of thousand year cycles, possibly taking thousands of years to complete.

Originally posted by elfie
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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The solar cycle may have a direct correlation to the Earth's magnetic pole reversals but so far we have been unable to quantify/qualify it. We know that the solar cycles appear to be regular (11 & 22 years). Earth's geomagnetic reversals are not tied to the same short cycles, but seem to occur in hundreds of thousand year cycles, possibly taking thousands of years to complete.

Where did I say any different?

I know that the Sun's magnetic reversals are different from the Earth's magnetic reversals, i never implied any different.

To those who apparently do not bother to read, please read someone's posts, and research work before you start making claims that are wrong, or have nothing to do with what has been stated.

However, this does not refute the fact that even the Sun's activity does influence the Earth's magnetic field, and as well as human health, as well as affecting other biological life.


[edited to add comment]

[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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A relationship, perhaps.
Causation or influence has not been demonstrated.
From one of your sources:

We are aware that the correlation found between some parameters of space weather, health and mental state cannot be considered as causal because the primary cause of the mechanism is not clearly understood.

www.psychologia.sav.sk...

None of your sources provide a mechanism. Human menstrual cycles follow a general 28 day pattern, the same period as lunar phases. Do all women begin menstruation during the same lunar phase? A relationship, perhaps. Causation? Influence? Don't bet on it.

Remember when biorhythms were considered proven?

[edit on 5/12/2009 by Phage]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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Looking at this, seeing that there is a correlation between space weather and the occurance of cardiac arrest/heart attacks, I'm still have a problem with this.

Firstly, the problem arises with the fact that this is correlation, not causation. And secondly, heart disease is certainly not caused by space weather. There may be small fluctuations caused by cosmic rays, or lack thereof, but nothing that would affect a normal/healthy human being in a fatal manner.

Also, most of the studies you cited are simply abstract, not full text. And I'm sorry but abstracts alone just won't cut it.

That's my take at first glance. I did read through and I have to admit the literature is interesting. I'll have to look through it in depth. Good Stuff!

-Dev

[edit on 12-5-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

Originally posted by elfie
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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The solar cycle may have a direct correlation to the Earth's magnetic pole reversals but so far we have been unable to quantify/qualify it. We know that the solar cycles appear to be regular (11 & 22 years). Earth's geomagnetic reversals are not tied to the same short cycles, but seem to occur in hundreds of thousand year cycles, possibly taking thousands of years to complete.

Now thats what I was talking about! I have heard that said by professionals recently and so not quite understanding the unknowns of the whole situation I was simply asking if the two could have more to do with each other than previously recorded.

I have to say I agree with questioningall completely in that what ever is happening, warrants close attention and if we stay civil there are some very informed members on this site that will come in with the big guns if things start looking real bad.

I do recall some of these same types of threads in the past, I suppose buried into the archives, but I know from being a bit freaked over how they looked before that they are far more twisted and bent now than a year or two ago.

Anyway, goodnight friends. Or good day!

Correlation does not imply causation

"Correlation does not imply causation" is a phrase used in science and statistics to emphasize that correlation between two variables does not automatically imply that one causes the other (though it needs to be stressed that it doesn't remove the fact that correlation can still be a hint, whether powerful or otherwise[1]). The phrase's opposite, correlation proves causation, is a logical fallacy by which two events that occur together are claimed to have a cause-and-effect relationship.

This is a common mistake made when examining epidemiological studies. This same logical fallacy is to blame for throwing Cholesterol under the bus.

-Dev

[edit on 12-5-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

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I posted excerpts because I can't post the entire peer-review research work, it goes against policy of ATS, and abstracts literally explain what articles are about, and what was found in their research. So abstracts very well explain, and corroborate my statement that changes in the magnetic field of the Sun, as well as other activity, affects human health.

Here is an excerpt from an spacedaily article which describes the results found by the Russian Academy of Sciences. I excerpted research work from the academy of sciences of different countries.

The heart and cardio-vascular system have always been considered the main biological targets of geomagnetic activity. However, the damage inflicted by magnetic storms on human health has been found to be different. Experts from the Institute of Space Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences (RAS), Institute of Physics of the Earth (RAS), and the Sechenov Moscow Medical Academy have established that the biggest danger emanates from the micro variations of the geomagnetic field, which coincide with the heartbeat. They occur in about half of all magnetic storms, and are most typical for a prelude to a storm with insignificant changes in the geomagnetic field (mostly affecting high altitudes), and for the recovery phase, when the geomagnetic field is coming back to normal.

Medical statistics for Moscow show that 70% of all micro variations, caused by geomagnetic disturbances, are accompanied by an abnormally high incidence of heart attacks (a growth of about 13%), and blood-strokes (7.5% growth). The low and extremely low frequency electromagnetic fields destabilize the heartbeat, leading to a sudden death or infarction. Medical experts have finally explained why heart attacks take a heavy toll before a magnetic storm - because micro variations begin 24 hours before the storm.

"We have analyzed numerous data on the heartbeat of cosmonauts from all Soyuz crews, and the majority of missions to the Mir Station and the International Space Station," said Doctor Tamara Breus (Physics and Mathematics) from the Russian Academy of Sciences' Institute of Space Studies, who heads of a group of physics and physicians, studying this problem.

"We subjected 45 cosmonauts to examination during landing and flights of various duration, when they were exposed to geomagnetic disturbance, and then studied the same parameters in a neutral situation,” he said.

"The influence of a magnetic storm was obvious. It was manifest in a change of pulse and blood pressure, vegetative disorders, reduction of heartbeat rate variability and the power of respiratory undulations, and in a more irregular heartbeat pattern. Reactions varied depending on the duration of the flights and an ability of cosmonauts to adapt themselves to the new environment."

In the opinion of Dr. Breus, these effects were a reaction of the vascular tonus and heartbeat rhythm to magnetic storms.

It is perfectly obvious that the response of such a complicated system as the human organism to external factors largely depends on its condition. A magnetic storm is not dangerous for healthy people.

www.spacedaily.com...


[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

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I don't understand your wanting to turn this into an argument. I was pointing out facts in response to a statement that is wrong.

Humans are 70-75% water, and we have iron in our bodies. Humans, as every other biological lifeform, are magnetic beings, and this has been corroborated by different research work.

Neuroscience. 2007 Jan 5;144(1):356-67. Epub 2006 Oct 25. Links
Evidence of a nonlinear human magnetic sense.Carrubba S, Frilot C 2nd, Chesson AL Jr, Marino AA.
Department of Orthopedic Surgery, Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center, P.O. Box 33932, 1501 Kings Highway, Shreveport, LA 71130-3932, USA.

Human subjects respond to low-intensity electric and magnetic fields. If the ability to do so were a form of sensory transduction, one would expect that fields could trigger evoked potentials, as do other sensory stimuli. We tested this hypothesis by examining electroencephalograms from 17 subjects for the presence of evoked potentials caused by the onset and by the offset of 2 G, 60 Hz (a field strength comparable to that in the general environment). Both linear (time averaging) and nonlinear (recurrence analysis) methods of data analysis were employed to permit an assessment of the dynamical nature of the stimulus/response relationship. Using the method of recurrence analysis, magnetosensory evoked potentials (MEPs) in the signals from occipital derivations were found in 16 of the subjects (P<0.05 for each subject). The potentials occurred 109-454 ms after stimulus application, depending on the subject, and were triggered by onset of the field, offset of the field, or both. Using the method of time averaging, no MEPs were detected. MEPs in the signals from the central and parietal electrodes were found in most subjects using recurrence analysis, but no MEPs were detected using time averaging. The occurrence of MEPs in response to a weak magnetic field suggested the existence of a human magnetic sense. In distinction to the evoked potentials ordinarily studied, MEPs were nonlinearly related to the stimulus as evidenced by the need to employ a nonlinear method to detect the responses.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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This article does not bolster your argument with my statement.

The article is talking about geomagnetic storms. Geomagnetic storms can occur at any time during the solar cycle. More likely during solar max, yes, but they do occur at times other than that of solar magnetic reversals. The article does not claim it is the magnetic reversal which may influence human health. The claim is that it is geomagnetic storms.

The question I replied to was specific, as was my answer to it.

[edit on 5/12/2009 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage

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Do you understand the fact that Solar magnetic reversals are geomagnetic changes?

The research work I excerpted shows that Solar geomagnetic changes do affect human health, hence Solar magnetic reversals do affect human health.

You are just arguing because you don't want to accept the fact that your statement was wrong, and your friend is backing you, even thou you are wrong, just because he is your friend, which still makes both you, and him wrong.

I wasn't trying to start an argument, I just gave "facts".

[edited to add comment]


[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

There is research work in which magnetic stimulation in the brain has been done and it has been found to affect mood, such as cause depression, as well as having other ill effects on humans, and other biological lifeforms.

Depression of Human Corticospinal Excitability Induced by Magnetic Theta-burst Stimulation: Evidence of Rapid Polarity-Reversing Metaplasticity
Reinhard Gentner1,2, Katharina Wankerl1, Claus Reinsberger1, Daniel Zeller1 and Joseph Classen1
1 Human Cortical Physiology and Motor Control Laboratory, Department of Neurology, University of Wuerzburg, D-97080 Wuerzburg, Germany, 2 Institute for Measurement Systems and Sensor Technology, Technical University of Munich, D-80333 Muenchen, Germany


Address correspondence to Prof. Dr J. Classen, Human Cortical Physiology and Motor Control Laboratory, Department of Neurology, University of Wuerzburg, Josef-Schneider Str. 11, 97080 Wuerzburg, Germany. Email: Classen_J@klinik.uni-wuerzburg.de

Metaplasticity refers to the activity-dependent modification of the ability of synapses to undergo subsequent potentiation or depression, and is thought to maintain homeostasis of cortical excitability. Continuous magnetic theta-burst stimulation (cTBS; 50 Hz-bursts of 3 subthreshold magnetic stimuli repeated at 5 Hz) is a novel repetitive magnetic stimulation protocol used to model changes of synaptic efficacy in human motor cortex. Here we examined the influence of prior activity on the effects induced by cTBS. Without prior voluntary motor activation, application of cTBS for a duration of 20 s (cTBS300) facilitated subsequently evoked motor potentials (MEP) recorded from APB muscle. In contrast, MEP-size was depressed, when cTBS300 was preceded by voluntary activity of sufficient duration. Remarkably, even without prior voluntary activation, depression of MEP-size was induced when cTBS was extended over 40 s. These findings provide in vivo evidence for extremely rapid metaplasticity reversing potentiation of corticospinal excitability to depression. Polarity-reversing metaplasticity adds considerable complexity to the brain's response toward new experiences. Conditional dependence of cTBS-induced depression of corticospinal excitability on prior neuronal activation suggests that the TBS-model of synaptic plasticity may be closer to synaptic mechanisms than previously thought.

cercor.oxfordjournals.org...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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I didn't mean "argument" in the sense of "arguing".

No. Solar magnetic reversals are neither geomagnetic changes nor geomagnetic storms.

A solar magnetic reversal is the switching of the north/south magnetic poles of the Sun.

A geomagnetic change is a change in Earth's magnetic field (Geo (Latin). =the Earth). A geomagnetic storm is a temporary disturbance in the Earth's magnetic field, a temporary geomagnetic change. Geomagnetic storms are caused by fluctuations in the solar wind, usually associated with coronal mass ejections.

As I said, coronal mass ejections may occur during any part of the eleven year solar cycle. Geomagnetic storms may occur during any part of the solar cycle. They are not confined to the period during which the solar magnetic reversal occurs.

[edit on 5/12/2009 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage

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Are you a scientist?


Purple flying giraffe.

reply to post by Revolution-2012

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No.
But I last night I stayed at a Holiday Inn.

reply to post by Phage

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In that you are right, I meant to say changes in the magnetic field of the sun in that particular statement. However, research work has found that both geomagnetic changes, and magnetic changes in the Sun have been found to affect human health.

See, it is not difficult to accept when one made a wrong statement.


[edit on 12-5-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Well, Phage, I guess I should friend you now, since you're my new accomplice.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

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In the opinion of Dr. Breus, these effects were a reaction of the vascular tonus and heartbeat rhythm to magnetic storms.

It is perfectly obvious that the response of such a complicated system as the human organism to external factors largely depends on its condition. A magnetic storm is not dangerous for healthy people.

www.spacedaily.com...


The bolded is exactly the point I was getting to. Myocardial Infarction(Heart Attack) and Sudden Cardiac Death(Cardiac Arrest) are not the result of space weather. If heart disease wasn't prevalent, this discussion would be moot.

It's like blaming a gun for a homicide......

-Dev

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

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And it's not hard to admit when one has made an extremely carefully (even ridiculously carefully) worded statement (as mine was).

Do any of your sources relate directly to solar magnetic reversals rather than a general increase in solar activity and the resulting increase in geomagnetic activity which occurs during solar max? Do any of them mention increases in the observed correlations which may occur during anomalous periods of high solar activity which may occur at periods other than solar max?

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