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[Youth and beauty] are consistently the only currency we are allowed to own and use.
really? a lecture – on what we’re supposed to do with our lives?
With or without our youth and beauty, and with or without your permission – we live our lives.
Often we would like to include men in [our] lives – but, alas, we come to realize that sometimes men believe they are in a position to negotiate the details...
...and somehow, though not always, the negotiations seem to be based not on our real value, the value we see in ourselves - but our perceived value.
who controls the market?
Astyanax: But what it emphatically doesn't involve is trying to be nineteen for ever...it's all to easy to see behind it the anxiety, the resentment, the boredom, ultimately the despair... the wreckage. The real damage. Which is on the inside, not the outside.
Spiramirabilis: so true – but how is this gender specific?
Men may trade in a different currency – but, none the less – they react with the same desperation and panic when they see it’s value begin to drop.
where does a man need to be lacking - how deficient must he be before he is considered to be a "wreck"?
Astyanx: not the wreck of a woman's beauty, but the wrack of her self.
Spiramirabilis: the wreck of her self....
Wikipedia: ...an old woman who is usually disagreeable, malicious, or sinister in manner, often with magical or supernatural associations that can make her either helpful or obstructing. She is marginalized by her exclusion from the reproductive cycle,[1] and her proximity to death places her in contact with occult wisdom. As a character type, the crone shares characteristics with the hag.
The word "crone" is a less common synonym for "old woman,"...
... It's true that women generally become less attractive as they age, but a number must not be used. If you can find an older, but still attractive woman who also has the benefit of maturity and acquired wisdom you have quite a wonderful thing...
...Inverting this, we find sometimes a woman who has lost her beauty and youth, and has also not matured spiritually and who has attained no wisdom. This unfortunate person is a wreck.
...but the vast majority lived greatly constrained and disadvantaged lives, essentially as the property of their menfolk. I know of very few times and places in which this was not the rule - the exceptions one finds are rare and usually quite short-lived...
Youth and beauty are not frozen assets. They are meant to be converted into that other, far more durable asset called a life of your own. This can involve having a career, making art, dedicating yourself to a cause, settling down and having kids, or some combination of the foregoing. The details are negotiable. But what it emphatically doesn't involve is trying to be nineteen for ever. That doesn't stop some women from trying. And yes, however grimly they maintain the exterior appearance of youth, attractiveness and enthusiasm for life, it's all to easy to see behind it the anxiety, the resentment, the boredom, ultimately the despair... the wreckage. The real damage. Which is on the inside, not the outside. Men make comics of themselves with their midlife crises, but women make themselves tragic. That, I believe, is the wreckage WhamBamTYM was alluding to: not the wreck of a woman's beauty, but the wrack of her self.
You know, Spiramirabilis, it isn't me - and it isn't WhamBamTYM either - that's making this men v. women
Clearly, by 'we', you mean, in all three cases, women. But my comments about youth and beauty apply equally to both sexes - as did the 'lecture', since I prescribe for others no medicine I would not take myself. And nobody, man or woman, requires permission from anybody else to live their life.
You seem to imply - perhaps this is not intentional - that men have no right to judge women.
Are you insisting that citizens of Mars have no basis for judging the inhabitants of Venus because the ethical referents of their respective planetary cultures are different? May we not condemn slavery then, or ethnic cleansing, or female circumcision, as long as they are practised by people in foreign countries?
My dear, anyone you invite into your life - male or female - is in a position to negotiate the details. That is precisely what the invitation means. And it cuts both ways: show me a woman who doesn't micromanage her man and I'll show you (1) a loveless relationship or (2) a liar.
So you're a Love Marxist?
However 'fair' the price set by the craftsman on his labour, people will not pay it unless they consider that the value of the good equals or surpasses it...In other words, value - in the sense you mean - is set by the market...who controls the market?
The answer, as ever, is supply and demand.
where does a man need to be lacking - how deficient must he be before he is considered to be a "wreck"?
Where? Anywhere. How much? Not very. All I have said prior to this applies equally to men and women, but here we come to a difference. The world - even today, even in the world's most 'liberated' places - is far, far harder on us than it is on women. Women pay for their mistakes with their happiness or their sanity (as men do, also) but men, additionally and so commonly the matter is barely regarded, pay with their lives. In extremis, a woman may sometimes find a man to protect her; but who will protect the man?
Spiramirabilis: the wreck of her self....
No, wrack.
Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Quoting WhamBamTYM:
...Inverting this, we find sometimes a woman who has lost her beauty and youth, and has also not matured spiritually and who has attained no wisdom. This unfortunate person is a wreck.
my interpretation of this? without her youth and beauty – she’s a complete loss – just a write-off
Quoting me:
...but the vast majority lived greatly constrained and disadvantaged lives, essentially as the property of their menfolk. I know of very few times and places in which this was not the rule - the exceptions one finds are rare and usually quite short-lived...
but why would this be true? How many reasons could there possibly be? We’re too weak to be treated right? We’re too stupid? We’re too frigging busy...
* * *
With the crone – and we’re talking about her place at the table. Does she have one - by right? Or only what she's been allowed?
nice try – but you were clearly talking about women. I don’t doubt you for a minute when you say it applies to all – I know you at least that well but you intended your criticism – and lecture – for us
what worth is there to a woman past a certain age?
What is her place?
When is her contract up?
Does she get to know about that deadline ahead of time?
* * *
we’re talking about people Astyanax – not beans – or fancy toilette paper – or a better mousetrap
your argument would work in favor of slavery – but, I think we all (mostly) agree – slavery is wrong – isn’t it?
* * *
where does a man need to be lacking - how deficient must he be before he is considered to be a "wreck"? the answer is - it doesn’t matter
men are still in control of the pedestal – and with our permission no less – isn’t that a kick in the pants?
I’ve come to believe that it might not be something men can even see – and that I can argue about it all I want – it might just be unexplainable
* * *
what it's really about is my mother
* * *
Graves wrote about an archetypal goddess triad which he referenced to several European mythologies, and his theories are popular with many neopagans due to the similar Victorian-synthesis approach to myth and history.
Elements of Graves' scholarship such as poor philology, use of inadequate texts (for example, the 'pseudo-Celtic' Canu Taliesin from the 19th century which he believed to represent an ancient document), and use of out-dated archeology have been criticised. Scholars... generally do not receive the work favourably...
However it was accepted as history by many non-scholarly readers and, according to Hutton, The White Goddess remains a major source of confusion about the ancient Celts and influences many un-scholarly views of Celtic paganism.
While Graves made the association between Goddesses and the moon appear 'natural' , it was not so to the Celts or other ancient peoples. Some neopagans have been bemused and upset by the thorough debunking that the 'Triple Goddess' has received in recent years from such scholars.
In spite of her seemingly terrible form, Kali is often considered the kindest and most loving of all the Hindu goddesses, as she is regarded by her devotees as the Mother of the whole Universe.
* * *
Originally posted by MonoChromeWrayth
I am coming from the male perspective and to me it seems that ... " traditionally " the male was the protector, hunter and a source of physical labour. All these things can be measured a lot easier than wisdom and knowledge. With the advent of civilization the male's " traditional " role is reduced which sent them into survival mode.
Which is why they attacked the role of the Crone, because she was the source of knowledge and wisdom. Because when the necessities of life are taken care of, there is naught left to do but learn from those that know more than you.
....................................
Okay. For me, his qualifier, 'not matured spiritually and has attained no wisdom' eliminated that interpretation.
So, for most of history, they've had no option but to obey the demands of men. Now, thanks to science, education and universal franchise, the balance has shifted.
Very simply: no, I didn't. What you read as lecture and criticism was purely observation, and it was not intended to refer only to women.
You can't beat biology, I'm afraid: all this is hardwired into the mating program of H. Sapiens.
But you must admit we (both sexes) have managed, by and large, to overcome or suppress the ugliest manifestations of the Urge to Merge.
That sort of belief is best unbelieved as fast as possible. It's false and dangerous.
The problem isn't lack of vision (or lack of sympathy) on the part of either sex. It is about our mutual enslavement to biology.
Besides, good Spiramirabilis, it is neither possible, nor in the least desirable, that all the pain of humanity should be taken from us - lest we be taken from ourselves withal.
'Withal': cf. 'wrack'.
Or Scarlett could try coming at it from a different angle.
So far, you've merely responded to what other posters are saying. Your own position is far from clear -
Time to put down your cards.
While you're riffling through your hand, Spiramirabilis, allow me to address this Crone business...
...all we've learnt, so far, is that you think (or rather feel) that older women get a raw deal from society, and that men are at least partly to blame for this. You don't explain how you came to this conclusion, why you think the world is so arranged, or what (if anything) should be done about it.
Spiramirabilis, you spoke earlier of Kali. But Kali is no crone: that is a western error rooted in the hideous depictions of her commonest aspect.
In fact, Kali is the womb of Time and the consort of Shiva, the supreme god of Saivaite Hinduism. She represents femininity at its most potent and terrible, but she is a mother goddess, not a crone.
In spite of her seemingly terrible form, Kali is often considered the kindest and most loving of all the Hindu goddesses, as she is regarded by her devotees as the Mother of the whole Universe.
Of Hindu deities, Kali is by far the most misunderstood by Westerners. And that's saying a lot.
Old women were not greatly respected or revered in any ancient society. Why should they be? They had no defined function and no power to compel veneration. The belief that they did is just modern-day revisionism, which collapses under rational scrutiny.
I believe we are each more than what we’re allowed to be sometimes
something people don’t talk about all that much, or are maybe unwilling to even really look at - is how difficult it can be to just be - to be a person wonderful or otherwise - if all you’re ever really allowed to be is - beautiful.
did a little old lady cut you off in traffic this morning?
Is there anyone on Earth who doesn't think they're more than they're allowed to be?
Life is the art of the possible.
As for beautiful men, they're goners from the kickoff.
did a little old lady cut you off in traffic this morning?
No, just calling it as I see it.
Doesn't mean I endorse what I see.
Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
:-) could you explain?
don't you ever want to be like the rest of us - and pretend that things are nicer and prettier - and funner - than they really are?
Originally posted by Astyanax
Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
don't you ever want to be like the rest of us - and pretend that things are nicer and prettier - and funner - than they really are?
Good grief, why on earth should I want to go back to that helpless, hopeless way of being? And why pretend, when life is so good, the world so beautiful and people so amusing?
I speak without irony. The world, with all its cruelty and suffering, is perfect. I wish I could explain it better, but it would take too long and people would never understand. I love life. I embrace impermanence. I am not a cynic.
A beautiful man has every other man's hand against him. We despise beautiful men as effeminate lightweights, even as we envy the sexual success they experience. For a good-looking man to succeed in the world, he has either to leverage his looks into a showbiz career or spoil them with a few well-placed scars.
I speak without irony. The world, with all its cruelty and suffering, is perfect. I wish I could explain it better, but it would take too long and people would never understand. I love life. I embrace impermanence. I am not a cynic.
Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
and guns - don’t forget guns :-)
Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
when he says that if she loses her beauty and youth - but has not also managed to become a fine example of a human being along the way - she is a wreck - it suggests to me that if she were an awful person - but still beautiful, she would still have some value
Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
if you really want to understand where I’m going with all this - that would be it right there - our mutual slavery - how much of it am I expected to never question and just accept?
some might even say that my thinking was completely accidental :-)
I can see you are genuinely thinking in circles here on some of this stuff, probably on complete accident.
have you learned how to make it stop yet? :-)
(I'm a daydreamer, baby)
a star for the attempt
Despite all that, I thought I would respond to some of the statements you've made thus far (or at least make an attempt at making sense ).
Not to call you out or attack you but just to contribute some perspective on the discussion here...
Some of the reason for this might be encoded in our DNA and be natural.
But I still don't agree with it at all (I agree with you).
...the term "value" is an extremely subjective use of the word in this particular context. It in no means applies to the whole of society because we know that many cultures value their "hags" almost to the point of being worshipped. Therefore, I don't even think it is useful towards any ends to define what "value" should mean in this debate because I don't think we would ever agree on even where to start with that in the first place.. It's kind of a loaded term...
I don't think it is even an issue of what should be accepted and what shouldn't though. A huge part of being happy in life is being comfortable in your own skin.
... The best time and place ever to be a woman is in the secular West, right now.
You’re right – the word - value - and how we use it. It is something that’s hard to pin down when you’re talking about the worth of a another human being.
...Absent any supernatural source, they can only come from us.
We devise moralities and impose them. Where do we get them? Of what raw material do we make them? And how come everyone's are different?
If values differ, how can there be any values?
We devise moralities and impose them.