The Crone: The forbidden face of the divine feminine

Originally posted by Astyanax
Men are programmed to find only fertile women sexy.

Men are bizarre creatures that find all SORTS of weird things sexy. There is every freaky fetish site availalbe online and they cater to MEN.

I don't quite get the "overly sexy" thing and older women. The most common draw for men is curves (which yes, does signal fertility). Curves as in waist to hip/chest ratio. If a woman has that she doesn't have to dress "sexy" she just has to wear something that accentuates her curves and that will trigger the male sexual response.

I went through the cougar phase too, all it took was a well fit pair of jeans and a well fit shirt. That does the trick and does not look "odd" (okay maybe being with a guy 15 years my junior did, but the clothing never did).


[edit on 13-5-2009 by Sonya610]

Regarding female attractiveness: I judge a woman as to her attractiveness in countless small ways. Among these is presence or lack of wrinkles, amount of healthy muscle mass, figure, and many others I'll have to think further about before I detail them here. I use these characteristics to determine whether I find a woman to be attractive, and these have something to do with age. But- I don't say a woman is good-looking or not good-looking based on age. It's true that women generally become less attractive as they age, but a number must not be used. If you can find an older, but still attractive woman who also has the benefit of maturity and acquired wisdom you have quite a wonderful thing. Inverting this, we find sometimes a woman who has lost her beauty and youth, and has also not matured spiritually and who has attained no wisdom. This unfortunate person is a wreck.

reply to post by WhamBamTYM


:-)

so much to say Wham - trying to think of a humorous - lighthearted way to say it...

since I really don't want an us against them discussion

If you can find an older, but still attractive woman who also has the benefit of maturity and acquired wisdom you have quite a wonderful thing.

yes, but...

Inverting this, we find sometimes a woman who has lost her beauty and youth, and has also not matured spiritually and who has attained no wisdom. This unfortunate person is a wreck.

oh Wham - you didn't really just say that - did you?

and this brings us right back round to the whole point of the Crone subject

why is a woman's value determined as part of a package - her true worth only coming as part of the complete package?

do you see?

what of men - attractive and young - or less attractive and older?

where does a man need to be lacking - how deficient must he be before he is considered to be a "wreck"?

reply to post by Sonya610


you make me laugh Sonya

I went through the cougar phase too, all it took was a well fit pair of jeans and a well fit shirt. That does the trick and does not look "odd" (okay maybe being with a guy 15 years my junior did, but the clothing never did).

I see you as someone who probably didn't feel the least bit odd - about any of it

you should factor that into the equation - a strong sense of self goes a long way

it is attractive

:-)

[edit on 5/13/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by tallcool1



Plus remember the significance of women in Jesus life.

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

The first to proclaim he was risen were women,

The saying,"He who is without sin cast the first stone." after saving the prostitute from stoning.

Catholics mother mary the great goddess and queen of heaven, the goddess Ishtar was also know as Ishtar queen of heaven, her planet Venus, bright and morning star.

Jesus known as the bright and morning star.

Also her sacred animals the lion and dove.

Jesus lion of the tribe of Judah, Dove=holy spirit.

The earliest churches were built on pagan temples sites.

The churches in Revelations.

If you investigte the women in the Bible it is a real eye opener.

Temple Priestesses?

reply to post by UselessEater




I think the term cougar has a negative connotation.

I see the crone more as, aged wise women, The crone is an honor bestowed after menopause, some ancients traditions say this is a power time because she no longer has menstrual flow, which is empowering.

I do have an issue with feminism and abortion, seeing that ancient goddess worship was all about fertility, how they can justify abortion, when they were once a fertility cult,

Not unlike the god of the OT

Be fruitful and multiply.

NA spider woman,
inanna.virtualave.net...

This is how I see her, she is beautiful, but not sexy.

[edit on 113131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Stormdancer777




Pagan and neo-pagan women had no need for either Feminism or abortion. Societies that depended upon a balance within nature and between men and women, birthed children that would be educated and taken care of by "the village"...a sort of welfare system if you will. Can't say that is happening now days.

Ancient men depended on the powers and contributions of women, pagan societies were neither patriarchal or matriarchal....they were balanced so the need for a support organization to fight for womens rights was hardly needed.

What ancient society do you consider to be a "fertility cult"?

[edit on 13-5-2009 by Witness2008]

reply to post by Witness2008


Maybe cult was a poor choice of words.

en.wikipedia.org...

Do you not believe survival and the fertitlity of the womb, and the land were of utmost importance, in the past?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Fertility, nature and balance was what it was all about....which is not the case in today's world.

The word "cult" was put into the vernacular around 1920 in order to describe groups that behaved outside the "norm". So much of our understanding about the ancients is a bit diluted and sometimes twisted by our limited and often times sterile thinking.

Crones were not just the embodiment of wisdom but were more a symbol of the cycle of life, always present in ancient societies reminding the populace of that cycle...birth, death and rebirth.

Today we manage to comfort the masses with keeping the old and death out of site...the reminder of why we should live our lives in a just and compassionate manner. When man purged the world of the divine feminine they cursed all of mankind.

reply to post by Witness2008


I agree with your post.

here's another link
members.fortunecity.com...

But I am sure you already know all this.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Thanks for the link...one that will come in handy. A person can never know too much.

Originally posted by Lebowski achiever
reply to post by wassy

 

Actually no. I haven't. But tell me, is it meant as a compliment or is there still a form of derision?

Cougars, I have seen being discussed as just women who are older, but act and dress younger.

I also saw where someone seemed to think of "cougar" and "crone" as the same thing? But perhaps I am mistaken. They are not, other than a cougar is an "older" woman i.e. possibly a crone, but a crone is not necessarily a cougar.

Cougars are women (generally considered 40+) who date much younger men.

The attitude of a cougar is also very important, a cougar has to be strong in self esteem to be able to date a much younger man in our patriarchal society.

So, it depends on the person's views if they consider a woman being a cougar as derogatory or not. Many people do see a cougar in the derogatory, but do not even think twice when they see an older man with a much younger women. Even possibly thinking "lucky old dog", but sneering at the older woman who dates a younger man. So yes, women are judged in a much harsher light than men in this manner.

Well, don't go to wiki for any kind of definition of "crone", it is fairly biased towards the negative. I was actually trying to find a website I know of that has very good information about the crone and thought I would see what wiki had. Biased for sure (see below ex)

The crone is a stock character in folklore and fairy tale, an old woman who is usually disagreeable, malicious, or sinister in manner, often with magical or supernatural associations that can make her either helpful or obstructing.

Does anyone have a wiki account who is willing to pop over and add some suggestions? If so here is the link en.wikipedia.org... and thank you.

So, instead of the website which I can no longer find, sorry for that, I will suggest one of my favorite books in regards to the Crone. It is called "Maiden, Mother, Crone" (yep all simple) by D.J. Conway

Below is an excerpt from the book, sorry I do not have a web link.

The Crone is winter, night, outer space, the abyss, menopause, advancement of age, wisdom, counsel, the gateway to death and reincarnation, and the Initiator into the deepest of Mysteries and prophecies.

Something I have had to think about, as I am turning 41 this year, is that the crone, does not necessarily mean "the end of things", but blends once more into the maiden aspect of rebirth and renewal. The crone reminds me of a lovely poem, and the freedom the poem suggest that a woman will be "allowed" to revel in when able to take off the responsibilities of youth and take on the "responsibilities" of "old age". I have only used the first part of the poem, just google for the rest.

WHEN I AM AN OLD WOMAN I SHALL WEAR PURPLE With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me. And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter. I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells And run my stick along the public railings And make up for the sobriety of my youth. I shall go out in my slippers in the rain And pick the flowers in other people's gardens And learn to spit

I admit, my thinking could be way off, but I do not feel that a society that thinks of one sex as being "better" than the other, as a society that will evolve in a healthy way. Just look at this world now where men have been "in control" for a very long time, it's all messed up. No, I am not saying that I think a matriarchal society would be better. We all need equality, men and women. I feel that once we can all view each other equally, being by sex, race, religion, sexual preference etc., then that will be the day when we can truly move forward as a "complete" and "whole" society.

I think, that once we can move forward into an equal society, things such as rape, verbal and physical abuse, killing and other crimes etc will all slowly go away. I am not sure why I think this way, all I know to say is it just "feels right" to me.

We have come a long way comparatively, but we still have a long long way to go, before many people learn to respect those that are not "just like them".

To the OP, lovely thread topic, thank you.

Also, to those who refuse to get into religious bashing, or sex bashing.

Harm None
Peace

Wow, this topic has really taken off and in many interesting directions...too many to comment on all of them, but thanks anyway.

Personally, I see the crone as a kind of asexual being, or perhaps "beyond sexual" is a better way of putting it. This is seperate from the issue of attractiveness and older women (which in itself is quite interesting).

My own two cents...the older I get (I'm a man, by the way), the less interested in sex I become. I am basically becoming an asexual being. This is an almost shocking thing to say...it sometimes seems society is able to accept any form of sexuality except asexuality. Everyone is different and some people seem innately more interested in sex than others...probably has to do with hormones, which as any endocrinologist will tell you, vary widely among individuals.

Many middle-aged men feel their sex urges ebbing and this freaks them out, which leads to a backlash in the other direction...the origin, perhaps, of the clownish "midlife crisis" cliche of the toupee'd ageing hipster in the fire-red convertable on the prowl...I've decided not to go down that road and to simply accept that as I age, my priorities are changing and sex is less important. I was fortunate enough to have a, shall we say, "active" youth, so I think I've gotten a lot of it out of my system. Many men never had such opportunities when younger and so they flip out as old age approaches, perhaps realizing their last days as sexual beings are approaching.

Overall, I think that if more people (men and women alike) could learn to simply accept hormonal changes everyone would be happier. But advertising thrives (in part) on making people feel insecure about their sexuality, so the asexual or sexually satisfied being (especially the older ones with more disposable income) are a no-no to big business and thus a social taboo.

reply to post by silent thunder

Personally, I see the crone as a kind of asexual being, or perhaps "beyond sexual" is a better way of putting it. This is seperate from the issue of attractiveness and older women (which in itself is quite interesting).

Yes, asexual is a good way to put it.

You know thunder I am getting old and my mind isn't what it used to be, and it wasn't all that great to begin with, but I would like to think I have some wisdom and common sense, I have seen a lot, and read and researched many things,

why?



[edit on 123131p://bThursday2009 by Stormdancer777]

[edit on 123131p://bThursday2009 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Originally posted by WhamBamTYM
Inverting this, we find sometimes a woman who has lost her beauty and youth, and has also not matured spiritually and who has attained no wisdom. This unfortunate person is a wreck.

oh Wham - you didn't really just say that - did you?

He did, ma'am, and if he meant what I think he did, I agree with him one hundred percent. I think you will, too, once you take his meaning.

I know a few wrecked women. Quite a few, in fact; I'm at that age and I live an extremely decadent life, so I run into them all the time. To be blunt, I've probably helped wreck a few.

Youth and beauty are not frozen assets. They are meant to be converted into that other, far more durable asset called a life of your own. This can involve having a career, making art, dedicating yourself to a cause, settling down and having kids, or some combination of the foregoing. The details are negotiable.

But what it emphatically doesn't involve is trying to be nineteen for ever.

That doesn't stop some women from trying. And yes, however grimly they maintain the exterior appearance of youth, attractiveness and enthusiasm for life, it's all to easy to see behind it the anxiety, the resentment, the boredom, ultimately the despair... the wreckage. The real damage. Which is on the inside, not the outside.

Men make comics of themselves with their midlife crises, but women make themselves tragic. That, I believe, is the wreckage WhamBamTYM was alluding to: not the wreck of a woman's beauty, but the wrack of her self.

[edit on 14/5/09 by Astyanax]

reply to post by Astyanax

He did, ma'am, and if he meant what I think he did, I agree with him one hundred percent.

sir – your agreement with him is not the same thing as his being correct...

I think you will, too, once you take his meaning.

...and I am certain that I took his meaning as it was intended – maybe it was my meaning that was unclear?

I know a few wrecked women.

however far we’re going to go with this, I think the meaning of the word wrecked is up for grabs

but I’ll pretend I agree with your version and say – so do I

To be blunt, I've probably helped wreck a few.

bragging, guilt, or just statement of fact? It doesn’t matter – you were the least important part of the equation - damaged people find what they’re looking for – a brand new chance to confirm their worst fears

Youth and beauty are not frozen assets.

no, not frozen – and their value can drop faster than you can possibly imagine

and yet, in many ways, and by many people - they are consistently the only currency we are allowed to own and use

They are meant to be converted into that other, far more durable asset called a life of your own. This can involve having a career, making art, dedicating yourself to a cause, settling down and having kids, or some combination of the foregoing. The details are negotiable.

really? a lecture – on what we’re supposed to do with our lives?

With or without our youth and beauty, and with or without your permission – we live our lives.

Often we would like to include men in those lives – but, alas, we come to realize that sometimes men believe they are in a position to negotiate the details

and somehow, though not always (and thankfully, not with all men) the negotiations seem to be based not on our real value, the value we see in ourselves - but our perceived value

who controls the market?

But what it emphatically doesn't involve is trying to be nineteen for ever...it's all to easy to see behind it the anxiety, the resentment, the boredom, ultimately the despair... the wreckage. The real damage. Which is on the inside, not the outside.

so true – but how is this gender specific?

Men make comics of themselves with their midlife crises, but women make themselves tragic.

a convenient assessment from the other team - but, how objective is it really?

where you see comedy – I very clearly see tragedy

and, oh, I have seen some real tragedy...

men may trade in a different currency – but, none the less – they react with the same desperation and panic when they see it’s value begin to drop

you think it’s comic – but I’ve seen them die – and not funny deaths. Not funny one little bit.

That, I believe, is the wreckage WhamBamTYM was alluding to: not the wreck of a woman's beauty, but the wrack of her self.

the wreck of her self....

and so, I think I was right – I think it was my meaning that wasn’t clear:

where does a man need to be lacking - how deficient must he be before he is considered to be a "wreck"?

I guess it depends on who is asking

it’s a lot to ask of a person to be responsible for their own self esteem – so that they might have worth

how much kinder and gentler a world would it be – and how much closer might be the sexes – if we recognized worth regardless

[edit on 5/14/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by silent thunder


and that's the most interesting post so far

I want to call it brave - but I'm afraid of how condescending that might sound :-)

so - not brave - but, seriously - honest in a way we don't get to hear very often

I understand your OP - and what you started

I'm curious about why you started this thread - what were you expecting to hear?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777


You know thunder I am getting old and my mind isn't what it used to be, and it wasn't all that great to begin with, but I would like to think I have some wisdom and common sense, I have seen a lot, and read and researched many things,

why?

I can't tell you why, I feel a similar change. I think "knowledge" and "wisdom" are entirely different things...I read recently that research into "wisdom," especially wisdom that comes with age, is a hot topic in neuroscience these days. Maybe in a few years somebody in a lab coat will come up with something meaningful to say about it.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by silent thunder

 

and that's the most interesting post so far

I want to call it brave - but I'm afraid of how condescending that might sound :-)

so - not brave - but, seriously - honest in a way we don't get to hear very often

I understand your OP - and what you started

I'm curious about why you started this thread - what were you expecting to hear?

Thanks for the high praise...
I don't know why I started this thread, really, just passing time I guess. I didn't expect to hear much and I certainly didn't expect it to go to six pages, which is a pleasant surprise. I was just reading the book I quoted and the passage there kind of jumped out at me. It struck me that the crone is indeed a very spiritual being and that there is a lot to be explored down that alley. It also struck me that that the author was correct; this aspect of the divine feminine has been pushed underground and only its nightside manifestation as "the witch" and so on has really surfaced in society.

This is an interesting thread that I hope stays alive for some time. It is a subject that unfortunately still lurks in the dark. Given the modern definitions and the conditioning of our minds away from aging and death it's no wonder we have gone so far astray...lining up for the plastic surgeons, the special little pills that will keep us young, forgetting about the natural processes...but then there is not a lot of money in the promotion of growing old gracefully. I wonder what Cher looks like.

In pre-christian Europe older women were given charge of the spiritual well being of communities, of health and education....a good reason for crusty old monks to start fires with women. And during the early sixteenth century an older woman could earn the label of witch by simply needing charity...plenty of fuel for the church.



The world is in bad need of a woman's touch.



[edit on 14-5-2009 by Witness2008]

reply to post by interestedalways


I wouldn't waste too much energy on UselessEater. He's either a troll or just looking to turn this thread into something it should never be because he's obviously got issues with women.